About Smith and Wesson Quality Control

[BigBill]

My last American made Chevy was an 88 350v8 I've owned chemise from when I was 14yo. (Born 1950). When the block cracked in my 88/350 me and owning Chevys parted ways. Being an ex jeep mechanic I purchased a special ordered 99 Jeep Wrangler 4.0L sport, I also own Japanese subarus now. I have two quality built cars.

Being a CNC machine builder I was in charge of building the complete machine. From a bare casting to its shipment. These machines were worth over 1 million dollars in the mid 80's. I was responcible for the complete machine. I built it with pride as if I owned it. Inspections for quality was done along the way. Failures weren't an option.

 

[zzzippper]

Quality control is preventing defects before they are built into the product. This is done via statistical process controls, process proofing, etc. This is to ensure that the manufacturer has a process that is capable of producing a quality product and that the process is in control (that the employees are following the capable process and that tools, materials, environment, etc. are in conformance with the process requirements).

Quality Assurance is detecting and correcting defects already manufactured into the product. This is done via various types of inspection.

Above all, quality is a subjective term. Often, a better term is quality value. Yes, you can build a microwave that will last 30 years. Do you want to pay $30,000 for it? Does it need the same quality standard of circuit cards as the Orion space capsule? Does a cop need a mirror-blue Colt Python or will a plastic Glock do the job?

 

[Lee's Landing Billy]

When did the fitters/assemblers stop being responsible for putting the entire firearm together?

At Colt in 1955. According to Wilkerson book.

 

[JKDOC]

Quality oops

This thread somehow veered into the automotive manufacturers but I'd like to bring it back to S&W.

I picked up my new in the box 442 Pro last Thursday. I checked to see if everything was in the box. All was there although one of the moon clips was bent. ( I think I have fixed that with judicious bending and a press.) I noticed the cylinder was not relieved for moon clips. Before leaving the parking lot, I called S&W service and was assured this was correct to allow the revolver to shoot ammunition without the moon clips. Every picture I had seen showed the cylinder relieved except around the edge. My 625 is fully relieved. I loaded it, closed the cylinder and there is no room for a moon clip. I called service again today and the rep I spoke with was more knowledgeable, had me take a picture of the cylinder, send it to him, and I am sure I will receive a return form soon. I have no doubt S&W will fix my 442 Pro. This was a special order gun. How did it get boxed and sent with a standard cylinder if it went through the Pro shop before delivery? I believe it has had Pro shop attention as the trigger pull is a smooth 10 pound pull.

I have shot it and will report it is the most accurate snubby I have shot. It's felt recoil in the web of my hand is worse than my 629. But this is not a gun I will be shooting boxes of ammo through. I will practice but the 625 is at no risk of losing favorite gun status.

S&W is not the only manufacturer I've had replacement or repair issues with. My new Weatherby SA 429 shotgun died on day 3 of 4 at Frontsight. Replaced with a new shotgun which has worked flawlessly. (Shotgun would not put a shell into full battery once it warmed up. Reported cause was it was dirty -not- but they replaced it with a new gun.) Springfield Armory XDM jammed frequently new out of the box. Returned, fixed, and back to me in a week. No problems since. New Ruger American Rifle in .223, magazine failed new out of the box. I was able to fix the magazine with some internet help and Ruger sent me a new magazine that works perfectly. Nice rifle. Very accurate and fun to shoot. I've been told I have been cursed somewhere along the line but would it not be better to fix them before selling them broken? I thought these were all range tested.

This is an OH AH problem. S&W will fix it. Of that I have no doubt. Just seems someone should be paying more attention.

 

[Hapworth]

...I picked up my new in the box 442 Pro last Thursday. I checked to see if everything was in the box. All was there although one of the moon clips was bent. ( I think I have fixed that with judicious bending and a press.) I noticed the cylinder was not relieved for moon clips. Before leaving the parking lot, I called S&W service and was assured this was correct to allow the revolver to shoot ammunition without the moon clips. Every picture I had seen showed the cylinder relieved except around the edge. My 625 is fully relieved. I loaded it, closed the cylinder and there is no room for a moon clip. I called service again today and the rep I spoke with was more knowledgeable, had me take a picture of the cylinder, send it to him, and I am sure I will receive a return form soon. I have no doubt S&W will fix my 442 Pro. This was a special order gun. How did it get boxed and sent with a standard cylinder if it went through the Pro shop before delivery? I believe it has had Pro shop attention as the trigger pull is a smooth 10 pound pull....

...This is an OH AH problem. S&W will fix it. Of that I have no doubt. Just seems someone should be paying more attention.

There's no Pro Shop, only the Performance Center, and the 442 Pro isn't a Performance Center revolver. As a Pro Series, it has added options (like the moon clips), but it's still a production line revolver, and as we know, a lot of mistakes can happen on the production line (though the PC can put out the occasional lemon, too). The lighter trigger is a pleasant bit of luck, but not standard to the line.

 

[JKDOC]

quality oops

I had read the Pro 442, in addition to the moon clip conversion, had a lighter trigger return spring than stock and a trigger job. Not so? I have also read the 625 and 442 have short stock firing pins but when I called S&W they said there was only one firing pin for these guns. So everything you read on the internet is not the truth?! Oh no.

I have been a lurker for some time. Just got around to putting in my 2 cents.

 

[msinc]

I don't know if quality control exist there...the last three guns I bought new had pretty serious issues. I would like to go to the factory, but I don't need a full blown tour...I just would like to meet the idiots that:

1. Let two muzzle crowns that looked like a circus chimp with a bit brace chattered them as bad as they could and marked it "Passed"

2. Same two revolvers, a 629 and a 686+, put both barrels on turned too tight so that both front sights were leaning noticeably, yet still failed to pick up on it and stamped them "passed"

3. Chattered the chamber so bad on a PPK/S that the gun failed to eject because the empty case was stuck in the rough chamber, test fired that and stamped it "passed"

Please Mr. or Ms. Tour guide, take me to the idiot!!!!! I just want to see exactly what one looks like so I know.

 

[mstem]

There's no Pro Shop, only the Performance Center, and the 442 Pro isn't a Performance Center revolver. As a Pro Series, it has added options (like the moon clips), but it's still a production line revolver, and as we know, a lot of mistakes can happen on the production line (though the PC can put out the occasional lemon, too). The lighter trigger is a pleasant bit of luck, but not standard to the line.

I have at this moment beside of me S&W's 2015 Product Catalog. On the top of page 58 is the following:

S&W Performance Center Revolvers
Pro Series.

So it seems by S&W's catalog Pros Series Revolvers are in fact Performance Center guns. Or has S&W made a mistake in their 2015 Catalog? I hope it's not a mistake because I have 2 of those Performance Center Pro Series Revolvers!

Also in the same catalog on page 57 is the following at the top of that page:

S&W Performance Revolvers
Pro Series

There listed is a Model 442 w/cylinder cut for moon clips. So by this catalog the 442 that JKDOC has is in fact a Performance Center gun. Or did S&W make another mistake in their catalog?

 

[CaptRon956]

In the past few years gun sales have risen sharply as more & more people get their CCW's & home protection. It doesnt surprise me that S&W would change their assembly process in order to meet demand. Regardless, I am very happy with my Shield 9 & M&P .380. They have both been flawless.

 

[Harrydale]

Computers, CNC equipment, Lasers, and Robotics have given us an Affordable, Quality product that would impress any craftsman and with much improved speed. Parts that are basically EXACT DUPLICATES and INTERCHANGEABLE period.


I'm just glad to be enjoying the benefit of modern production techniques as they allow me to possess a few fine fitting and shooting firearms.

JMHO.

In a lot of cases, there is just no need for individual fitting of parts because the variance of the individual parts is within a very tight tolerance.

 

[BigBill]

The new parts are machined to within the millionths within the cnc controls the tolerances can be held tighter because they can be programmed in. "BUT" there's still a break in time now that's allowed for the mating parts to wear into each other. I'm sure at one-time these parts were hand fitted and lapped into each other. But the new guns I'm sure are ok once they get some usage or mileage on them. I lube them with moly anyway. I lube all the metal to metal contact surfaces and the sear. This makes every revolver feel exactly the same action wise. I can shoot my m27 then switch to my m58 and the trigger feels close enough as to where I don't have a different trigger pull and need to constantly readjust every time I change guns. With the actions smoother I'm a better shot.
No gun is the same when they come off the assembly line. Moly makes them as close as you can get them.

Give me something that works to begin with, I can make my changes to make it better. I enjoy my new S&W revolvers.

 

[3dots]

Quality control is preventing defects before they are built into the product. This is done via statistical process controls, process proofing, etc. This is to ensure that the manufacturer has a process that is capable of producing a quality product and that the process is in control (that the employees are following the capable process and that tools, materials, environment, etc. are in conformance with the process requirements).

Quality Assurance is detecting and correcting defects already manufactured into the product. This is done via various types of inspection.

Above all, quality is a subjective term. Often, a better term is quality value. Yes, you can build a microwave that will last 30 years. Do you want to pay $30,000 for it? Does it need the same quality standard of circuit cards as the Orion space capsule? Does a cop need a mirror-blue Colt Python or will a plastic Glock do the job?

Bingo! You hit the nail on the head. QC and QA are two totally different animals. QC through SPC initiatives are what they are and typically the data is derived from lot samplings (AQL). QA is ultimately responsible for brand protection and AQL results should NEVER be allowed and accepted as "final inspection".

 

[GaryS]

We use the terms Quality Assurance and Quality Improvement. QA catches errors after they occur. QI is the educational process we use to prevent errors from happening at all.

Our clients don't build a product, they provide medical services. We find potential problems using QA, but then I go to work doing QI to keep them from happening in the future.

QI is much more labor intensive, but we think the benefits are worth it.

Quality control is preventing defects before they are built into the product. This is done via statistical process controls, process proofing, etc. This is to ensure that the manufacturer has a process that is capable of producing a quality product and that the process is in control (that the employees are following the capable process and that tools, materials, environment, etc. are in conformance with the process requirements).

Quality Assurance is detecting and correcting defects already manufactured into the product. This is done via various types of inspection.

Above all, quality is a subjective term. Often, a better term is quality value. Yes, you can build a microwave that will last 30 years. Do you want to pay $30,000 for it? Does it need the same quality standard of circuit cards as the Orion space capsule? Does a cop need a mirror-blue Colt Python or will a plastic Glock do the job?

 

[Shootbrownelk]

I don't suppose pointing out that your concept of auto assembly is wrong would do anything but inflame you, so I won't.

Or that American cars have had an equal if not better record for quality than the foreign makes going on a decade now.

That's okay, the 80's and 90's did much to ruin Detroit's reputation. Maybe your children will give them a fair shake.

Blujax, you forgot the 70's. Some real junk came out of Detroit in the 70's. Most of GM and Fords engines & parts come out of Mexico and Canada. Most "Imports" are built here in the states. Toyota trucks come to mind. I have too many friends who own GM's that have nothing but trouble with them. Thanks anyway, but I'll keep my American made Toyota Tundra.

 

[Shootbrownelk]

Management does some stupid things, look at what junk autos they put the name Cadillac on in the 80's.

Yeah, I remember the Chevy Nova with the Cadillac emblem on it...what a ***. I think they called it the Cimarron? Real quality move there. And putting 350 GM corporate motors in everything GM.

 

[Hapworth]

I have at this moment beside of me S&W's 2015 Product Catalog. On the top of page 58 is the following:

S&W Performance Center Revolvers
Pro Series.

So it seems by S&W's catalog Pros Series Revolvers are in fact Performance Center guns. Or has S&W made a mistake in their 2015 Catalog? I hope it's not a mistake because I have 2 of those Performance Center Pro Series Revolvers!

Also in the same catalog on page 57 is the following at the top of that page:

S&W Performance Revolvers
Pro Series

There listed is a Model 442 w/cylinder cut for moon clips. So by this catalog the 442 that JKDOC has is in fact a Performance Center gun. Or did S&W make another mistake in their catalog?

Perhaps a change at S&W reflected only in their catalogue?

But from their website:

Completing the line between main production and the Performance Center, the Smith & Wesson Pro Series represents the next step from standard models. These firearms are offered with a variety of enhancements yet still remain true to "stock." Bringing competition specifications and features to factory models, the Pro Series offer that ready-to-go package while still maintaining production line integrity.

Sounds "production line plus", though there are some who'd argue that the Performance Center has become just another production line, too.

I think if the 442 Pro were a PC model S&W would make it very clear in all their marketing, including their website which gets a lot more traffic than their catalogue, and would charge the premium that PC models get.

I'm a huge fan of the 442 Pro, which is technically called the 442 Moon Clip now, but there's nothing PC about it, to include the trigger, which is standard S&W and doesn't compare to the 637 Wyatt Deep Cover "Gunsmoke", with a trigger specifically listed as worked over by the Performance Center and to very noticeable effect...

 

[JKDOC]

Received the e-mail today saying a Fed X return label would be arriving shortly. BMT Mooner came today. Loaded the moon clip that was not bent and, surprise, no room without the cylinder being relieved.

Not sure what to make of S&W description of the Pro series. I don't care if it is a true PC gun. My "collection" consists of working guns (except for my Top Break double action .44) and I intend for them to be well used when I pass them on to my son and daughters. I just want it to be working as advertised. And I expect it will be fairly soon.

I should mention that my 629 and 9 mm Shield have worked flawlessly. They apparently skipped by the curse.

 

[JKDOC]

Found a Shooting USA video on YOU Tube that explains what the Pro series guns are. Goes into good detail. The Pro Series guns receive Performance Center parts to enhance a production gun. The guns are put together on the production line and are then supposed to be checked by a Performance Center gunsmith to assure the work was done correctly. Guess they forgot to check the cylinder in mine. Good video.

 

[41]

I have model 28 N frame. Just bought and took to range. Noticed a cylinder line developed losing some of the blueing. My model 10 does not show this wear or heavy line on its cylinder. Any ideas ?

In old days they polished the cylinder stop while today I find some that the edge is sharp enough to cut your finger.

I take a piece of duck tape and place it across the stop and use an x-acto knife to cut around the stop. Then I use 800 sandpaper to polish the edge of the stop to remove the sharp edge. The tape protects the rest of the gun. You have to hold the trigger in place so the stop is protruding.