Buffalo Bore introduces .38 Spl.+P Outdoorsman (Keith Load..with .38-44 velocities)

[keith44spl]

What's all the fuss about...I've been loadin that lit'l deal right thar for many, many years.

A hard cast Lyman 358429 sized .357 and settin on top of a dollup of 2400.
Works equally well in 38-44 and 357 S&W revolvers as well as Colt SAAs.


http://smith-wessonforum.com/lounge/180930-ah-pure-life.html


Su Amigo,
Dave

 

[shawn mccarver]

The FBI issued the Colt Official Police. If they ever officially issued the smaller Police Positive Special, I have never seen a reference to it.

I am not sure how you have "never seen a reference to" the FBI having issued the Colt Police Positive, as it is readily available on the internet and in the NRA magazine American Rifleman (August 2011 issue).

Please note that the FBI's first issue handgun was the Colt Police Positive, not the Official Police. The June 28, 1933 report of the weapons committee notes that the Police Positive was already supplied to each field office, and should be issued to each agent. The report can be found here:

http://historicalgmen.squarespace.com/storage/33GunCommittee.pdf

The condition placed on adopting the .38 Special caliber was that the .38/44 ammo be adopted. The .38/44 ammo was the forerunner to the .357 Magnum, which was not yet introduced in 1933. The .38/44 ammo was VERY HOT by today's standards, and fired the 158 grain Keith semi-wadcutter bullet at 1125 feet per second, which is a low end Magnum round. The round was a Smith & Wesson project, to be fired in its big N-Frame revolvers, known as the .38/44 Heavy Duty (fixed sight) and the Outdoorsman (adjustable sight). Naturally, the little Police Positive must have been a joy to shoot with that ammo! The ammo report is found here:

http://historicalgmen.squarespace.com/storage/3845comparison.pdf

The initial order for Police Positive revolvers so that the Bureau would have enough so that one could be issued to each agent is found here:

http://historicalgmen.squarespace.com/storage/33colttraining.pdf

The directive to train each agent and the distribution of Police Positive revolvers by field office is found here:

http://historicalgmen.squarespace.com/storage/33ordersdistribution.pdf

As you can plainly see, the Police Positive was the first issue revolver for the Bureau. In case you missed it, the official publication of the National Rifle Association (NRA) had an article on FBI handguns, and it also said the Bureau issued the Police Positive revolver. The article can be found here:

Guns of the FBI History

I hope you enjoy reading all of these original memorandums as much as I did. We certainly owe a debt to Larry Wack, (FBI Special Agent, ret.) for obtaining all of these historical documents and putting them on his site so we can all see them.

 

[Oyeboteb]

170 grain Lyman #358429 cast bullet with 12.5 grains of 2400 out of my 6 1/2 inch Outdoorsman travels at about 1,210 fps. Recoil isn't that bad oddly enough.

I am I naive to worry that the Load you mention would hurt the Web of my Hand a little ( one Hand Shooter that I am ) out of my 1930s 'M&P' Snubby?

 

[Oyeboteb]

I am not sure how you have "never seen a reference to" the FBI having issued the Colt Police Positive, as it is readily available on the internet and in the NRA magazine American Rifleman (August 2011 issue).

Please note that the FBI's first issue handgun was the Colt Police Positive, not the Official Police. The June 28, 1933 report of the weapons committee notes that the Police Positive was already supplied to each field office, and should be issued to each agent. The report can be found here:

http://historicalgmen.squarespace.com/storage/33GunCommittee.pdf

The condition placed on adopting the .38 Special caliber was that the .38/44 ammo be adopted. The .38/44 ammo was the forerunner to the .357 Magnum, which was not yet introduced in 1933. The .38/44 ammo was VERY HOT by today's standards, and fired the 158 grain Keith semi-wadcutter bullet at 1125 feet per second, which is a low end Magnum round. The round was a Smith & Wesson project, to be fired in its big N-Frame revolvers, known as the .38/44 Heavy Duty (fixed sight) and the Outdoorsman (adjustable sight). Naturally, the little Police Positive must have been a joy to shoot with that ammo! The ammo report is found here:

http://historicalgmen.squarespace.com/storage/3845comparison.pdf

The initial order for Police Positive revolvers so that the Bureau would have enough so that one could be issued to each agent is found here:

http://historicalgmen.squarespace.com/storage/33colttraining.pdf

The directive to train each agent and the distribution of Police Positive revolvers by field office is found here:

http://historicalgmen.squarespace.com/storage/33ordersdistribution.pdf

As you can plainly see, the Police Positive was the first issue revolver for the Bureau. In case you missed it, the official publication of the National Rifle Association (NRA) had an article on FBI handguns, and it also said the Bureau issued the Police Positive revolver. The article can be found here:

Guns of the FBI History

I hope you enjoy reading all of these original memorandums as much as I did. We certainly owe a debt to Larry Wack, (FBI Special Agent, ret.) for obtaining all of these historical documents and putting them on his site so we can all see them.

Hi Shawn,

I for one have really enjoyed the info you relay and link to.

If firing .38-44 or it's present day equivelent out of my mid '30s S & W "M&P" Snubby seems a cringeful prospect to me, I will have to brood some more on how it would feel out of my early '30s Colt Detective Special.

And, as far as I can imagine...Yuck!!!

This might conflict with any interest in indulging in 'follow up shots' for me anyway.

So...Okay, I brooded on it...and...

I do not think I will elect such as my routine 'Carry' Ammunition, even if I m-i-g-h-t try it sometime at the Range, just to really see for sure what it is like.

Lol...

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

I am not sure how you have "never seen a reference to" the FBI having issued the Colt Police Positive, as it is readily available on the internet and in the NRA magazine American Rifleman (August 2011 issue).

Please note that the FBI's first issue handgun was the Colt Police Positive, not the Official Police. The June 28, 1933 report of the weapons committee notes that the Police Positive was already supplied to each field office, and should be issued to each agent. The report can be found here:

http://historicalgmen.squarespace.com/storage/33GunCommittee.pdf

The condition placed on adopting the .38 Special caliber was that the .38/44 ammo be adopted. The .38/44 ammo was the forerunner to the .357 Magnum, which was not yet introduced in 1933. The .38/44 ammo was VERY HOT by today's standards, and fired the 158 grain Keith semi-wadcutter bullet at 1125 feet per second, which is a low end Magnum round. The round was a Smith & Wesson project, to be fired in its big N-Frame revolvers, known as the .38/44 Heavy Duty (fixed sight) and the Outdoorsman (adjustable sight). Naturally, the little Police Positive must have been a joy to shoot with that ammo! The ammo report is found here:

http://historicalgmen.squarespace.com/storage/3845comparison.pdf

The initial order for Police Positive revolvers so that the Bureau would have enough so that one could be issued to each agent is found here:

http://historicalgmen.squarespace.com/storage/33colttraining.pdf

The directive to train each agent and the distribution of Police Positive revolvers by field office is found here:

http://historicalgmen.squarespace.com/storage/33ordersdistribution.pdf

As you can plainly see, the Police Positive was the first issue revolver for the Bureau. In case you missed it, the official publication of the National Rifle Association (NRA) had an article on FBI handguns, and it also said the Bureau issued the Police Positive revolver. The article can be found here:

Guns of the FBI History

I hope you enjoy reading all of these original memorandums as much as I did. We certainly owe a debt to Larry Wack, (FBI Special Agent, ret.) for obtaining all of these historical documents and putting them on his site so we can all see them.

Well done sir, beat me to making a few points and reminded me of several others I had forgotten or overlooked. You're on point and I thank you.

Cheers;
Lefty

 

[DWalt]

I will pass on several loads from my Lyman Reloading Handbook from the mid-1950s for .38 Special High Velocity loads (.38/44, I guess, but it does not say that, only "for Heavy Frame Guns Only")

148 grain cast hollow base, 13.5 grains 2400, 1380 ft/sec; 7.7 grains Unique, 1285 ft/sec
158 grain Thompson H.P., Gas Check, 13.5 grains 2400, 1227 ft/sec; 6.4 gr. Unique, 1154 ft/sec
155 grain Keith H.P. Hollow Base, 12.0 grains 2400, 1230 ft/sec
158 grain Thompson cast plain base, 11.8 grains 2400, 1210 ft/sec

For standard .38 Special loads, none are provided using 2400 propellant, and those velocities max out at about 1000 ft/sec.

This is the complete data entry for the .38 Spl. "high velocity" loadings, except Lyman mold numbers for the bullets above were given.
No jacketed bullets then, I don't think there were many used at that date in .38 Special, as their popularity came later. Equivalent jacketed bullets with the same loads would be maybe 100 ft/sec slower than shown.

 

[A10]

Seems to me the best thing about the load from Buffalo Bore is that you can buy it over the counter for all those who do not roll their own. They do the same with some of the warmer .45 Colt loads. Good company.

 

[shawn mccarver]

Hi Shawn,

I for one have really enjoyed the info you relay and link to.

If firing .38-44 or it's present day equivelent out of my mid '30s S & W "M&P" Snubby seems a cringeful prospect to me, I will have to brood some more on how it would feel out of my early '30s Colt Detective Special.

And, as far as I can imagine...Yuck!!!

This might conflict with any interest in indulging in 'follow up shots' for me anyway.

So...Okay, I brooded on it...and...

I do not think I will elect such as my routine 'Carry' Ammunition, even if I m-i-g-h-t try it sometime at the Range, just to really see for sure what it is like.

Lol...

If you want to get the "feel" that the agents had back in 1933, load up your D Frame Colt (Police Positive/Detective Special) with the Buffalo Bore load called the "Outdoorsman." It chronographs just a tad faster than the original .38/44 and has the same Keith 158 grain semi-wadcutter. Buffalo Bore says:

"This load is safe to shoot in all 38SPL and 357 magnum firearms of modern design that are in normal operating condition. In the super lightweight alloy revolvers (around 11-12 oz.) the bullet will not jump crimp under recoil provided you do not subject an unfired round to more than 5 or 6 firings. In all steel guns, even short barreled ones, crimp jump is not an issue as the all steel snub nosed revolvers are much heavier than the alloy versions."


https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=291

 

[Oyeboteb]

If you want to get the "feel" that the agents had back in 1933, load up your D Frame Colt (Police Positive/Detective Special) with the Buffalo Bore load called the "Outdoorsman." It chronographs just a tad faster than the original .38/44 and has the same Keith 158 grain semi-wadcutter. Buffalo Bore says:

"This load is safe to shoot in all 38SPL and 357 magnum firearms of modern design that are in normal operating condition. In the super lightweight alloy revolvers (around 11-12 oz.) the bullet will not jump crimp under recoil provided you do not subject an unfired round to more than 5 or 6 firings. In all steel guns, even short barreled ones, crimp jump is not an issue as the all steel snub nosed revolvers are much heavier than the alloy versions."


https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=291

Well...maybe I will do just that, and, send off for a Box and give them a try.

Beats talking through my Hat like I have been, anyway!

My early Detective Special hurts my hand somewhat as it is, with plain old Standard Loading .38 Specials, so, the Buffalo Bore 'Sportsman' round ought to out-do those...but, by how much, I will find out then.

Lol...


All levity aside though, my main concern with this would be how well and promptly I can make rapid-enough and well-enough placed 'Follow Up' shots, which, with Standard old 158 Grain RNL or Lead semi-Wadcutter .38 Special, I can do fairly well, from the Hip or as may be.

Shooting from odd positions, one Handed, ( or with one's not usually used Hand of course ) can be important sometimes, and, if too much recoil, one might have a harder time then with those less-than-ideal holds and impromptu positions and so on, which conditions may sometimes call for or impose.

I did send off for a Box of the Buffalo Bore non +P .38 Special Cartridges, the ones meant for 'Snubbys' I think, but, I have not tried those yet.

What was the average weight and height of G-Men in the early 1930s?

5-8, 135 ish or so? Or, all over the board probably...

Any much larger, and the PPS would have been a might crampy.

 

[shawn mccarver]

Well...maybe I will do just that, and, send off for a Box and give them a try.

Beats talking through my Hat like I have been, anyway!

My early Detective Special hurts my hand somewhat as it is, with plain old Standard Loading .38 Specials, so, the Buffalo Bore 'Sportsman' round ought to out-do those...but, by how much, I will find out then.

Lol...


All levity aside though, my main concern with this would be how well and promptly I can make rapid-enough and well-enough placed 'Follow Up' shots, which, with Standard old 158 Grain RNL or Lead semi-Wadcutter .38 Special, I can do fairly well, from the Hip or as may be.

Shooting from odd positions, one Handed, ( or with one's not usually used Hand of course ) can be important sometimes, and, if too much recoil, one might have a harder time then with those less-than-ideal holds and impromptu positions and so on, which conditions may sometimes call for or impose.

I did send off for a Box of the Buffalo Bore non +P .38 Special Cartridges, the ones meant for 'Snubbys' I think, but, I have not tried those yet.

What was the average weight and height of G-Men in the early 1930s?

5-8, 135 ish or so? Or, all over the board probably...

Any much larger, and the PPS would have been a might crampy.

Yes, I agree with you about the loads. Felt recoil is always higher with either heavier bullets or higher velocity.

As to the average height and weight of an FBI Agent of the early 1930s, I have no idea, but I imagine that regardless of physical stature, they all stood taller than the mere height measurement!

 

[Hannibal Barca]

Those .38/44 HV of Buffalo Bore could be a good middle load (medium velocity) for revolvers .357 Mag K frames.