Need some AR advice

[Gunslinger808]

The thing with "Mil-Spec" is that it sets out the basic MINIMUM allowable specs that a weapon can be.
In most cases the specifications are exceeded.
I think most of the problem with a military rifle is it goes through so many hands, if you ever got one right out of the box you'd get your 1MOAS out of it.
Sorta like the old rattle trap .45s they issued, big difference between those and a well cared for Govt. issue.
I've got 2 M-4s sitting in my safe that I can get 1 MOA out of, of course they've never been beat to death and abused like an armory weapon.
ETA:
Now, if I could just get 1MOA out of my aging eyes again!

 

[crofoot629]

some of us like rifles that will shoot less than 1MOA and are not made to loose specifications. So if the prancing pony wanted you to go somewhere and drink the koolaid you would follow them blindly off of a cliff because it has the same insignia as a Ferrari. I have looked up the specs for a Mil-Spec AR and Foxtrot is right they are a 3MOA platform. Not near accurate enough for a hunting rifle. Smith turned a loose rattletrap rifle into an accurate hunting rifle. Not something made for human sized targets.....

Sorry but I think you are a little confused. The 3 MOA accuracy for the Colt is for M193 and M855 ammunition. Which you may not know, but is not very accurate ammunition. The rifle itself is capable of much better accuracy if fed the right ammo.

My Colt will shoot MOA with any number of loads. And I believe, without going back and checking my logs, with anything Hornady I've ever tried.

It will even shoot MOA with cheap Federal AAE223.
Here's a target. The scope is a 1.75X6 Leopold. So even with low magnification I've been able to shoot many MOA groups. 3 rounds at 100 is of course much easier, but notice this target was 5 rounds at 200 Yards.

I've spent quite a bit of time with AR's of different makes. Mostly Colts, Rock Rivers, and Noveske's. The Sheriff's office I retired from 2 years ago was the first in the state to put an AR in every patrol car. I've also been to Thunder Ranch 6 times and shoot IPSC.

I now drink from the Noveske Koolaid as you put it. Colt's and Noveske's have been good to me.

FWIW I also drink Aimpoint, and Larue, and 5 Screw S&W, and Wilson Combat 1911 Koolaid.

I think the 6920 represents the best value in today's AR market. jmho.

Emory

 

[oneyeopn]

Everyone's experiences are different. When I was in the Military with an 16A1 it had already seen years of vietnam and would not shoot 1MOA. I could still qual expert with it but there was no way it would shoot 1MOA. My experiences with Colts since have not been with new ones. It has been with trade ins that have been resold. And yep they shoot like the 1911's that we were issued, 1MOBD, We also had area targets for quals. I just have not had the experience with them that I have had with my S&W so I will continue to stick up for the Smiths. I do notice that the used Smiths (when you can find one) are still bringing like new prices where as Colts are all over the place. I wasnt attempting to offend but I did want to show that mil-spec is a pretty loose set of specs that my Sport in all applicable areas beats.

I did read further into the accuracy test. The rear sight must be within +/-12 clicks of being centered and the front sight between flush and .3 inches of being flush with the base. That is quite a bit of difference. Plus it states the ammo has an allowable deviation of, and I dont remember exactly, 4 inches of deviation at 600yrds. That is way more accurate than what we have read in other places.

 

[storeyteller]

Emory

You missed the bull. I'll give ya $100 for that tomato stake.

 

[Stebo]

I think the 6920 represents the best value in today's AR market. jmho.

Emory,

Colt 6920 - $1,150 MSRP
M&P15 Sport - $739 MSRP

Your Colt shooting 2" at 200 yds is very impressive, to me. But I'm certain that for many Sport owners on this forum, not so much. If accuracy is the over riding factor in "best value", for about the same accuracy, or better, you could have saved over $400.

In the industry in which I work there is a saying - no one ever got fired for buying IBM. And I'm certain that in LE or government procurement, buying Colt is a safe career move. After all, it's not like it's real money, it's just tax dollars.

The 6920 is a solid, quality rifle, but "best value"? Besides the name, what else does the Colt have going for it that, say, a Stag, Spikes, BC, DS Arms, S&W, don't have at the same or lower price?

 

[C4IGrant]

WOW, lot of bad info here. First, the accuracy standard for the M16/M4 is 4MOA at 100yds. This is the MAX accuracy standard for this gun and honestly isn't the guns fault, but the crappy ammo (M855/M193).
As a general rule, most of your Colt AR's will shoot 1.5" groups for better. Same goes with the chrome lined S&W AR's. Can you get a Colt or a S&W AR to shoot UNDER 1MOA @ 100yds? Yes.

Mil-Spec simply means that parts are interchangeable. So you can take one M16/M4 apart and all the parts will fit into another M16/M4.

TDP (technical data package) is what tells the manufacturer how every single part is to be made and assembled. The bolt steel, barrel steel, testing, proof load, anodizing and even the color of the gun is listed. This standard is neither low or high. It is simply THE standard that all AR's are measured against and ONLY Colt and FN own the official one.

As someone that has been involved with S&W AR's since day one, I can tell you that they are a very good AR and are going in the right direction. I would also say that the SPORT is probably the best value out there. With that said, they are not equal to a Colt, BCM, Noveske, DD, etc.


In the end, if you want or own a S&W AR, then great, but to think it is a BETTER built gun than a Colt is inaccurate IMHO.



C4

 

[oneyeopn]

Well sir I do respectfully disagree with your opinion. My sport is more accurate than my Dad's Colt AR15A3 and My closests Friends Bushmaster. I posted the military TM on the M4 up above. And Remington now has the Technical Package on the M4's. I did not know that S&W had a plant in Ohio.

 

[C4IGrant]

Well sir I do respectfully disagree with your opinion. My sport is more accurate than my Dad's Colt AR15A3 and My closests Friends Bushmaster. I posted the military TM on the M4 up above. And Remington now has the Technical Package on the M4's. I did not know that S&W had a plant in Ohio.

LOL, of course it is. You are comparing apples an oranges. The Colt has a chrome lined barrel and sport does not. So you might as well compare the Colt against a .223 REM Stainless Steel barrel!

Any company that bids on a .Gov contract gets the TDP, BUT cannot use it to produces a Civy available AR15 (legally). With that said, Remington did NOT get the latest M4 contract.

S&W does not have a plant in Ohio. There is this thing called an Airplane though and they have brought me up to their plant to help them with their AR program (FYI).

C4

 

[storeyteller]

I agree with C4. However, I don't think anyone said that the S&W was better built than any other AR out there. I do believe that the BARREL is better based on my experience though. With that said, I don't think the Colt is equal to a Noveske or Les Baer. However, all of these weapons are built for different shooters, with different applications, different expectations, and different bank accounts. Kinda like saying a Corvette is better than a Kenworth.
In the end it's the indian, not the arrows anyway. JMO

 

[C4IGrant]

I agree with C4. However, I don't think anyone said that the S&W was better built than any other AR out there. I do believe that the BARREL is better based on my experience though. With that said, I don't think the Colt is equal to a Noveske or Les Baer. However, all of these weapons are built for different shooters, with different applications, different expectations, and different bank accounts. Kinda like saying a Corvette is better than a Kenworth.
In the end it's the indian, not the arrows anyway. JMO

You might not, but some do. The reason why S&W did not go with chrome lining on the SPORT is for ONE reason, cost. Meloniting barrels is cheaper. In theory, this is better than chrome lining, but we won't know for certain for quite some time.

As a Noveske Distr. they make a great gun, but in certain ways are not up to all aspects of the TDP and Colt.



C4

 

[Stebo]

In the end, if you want or own a S&W AR, then great, but to think it is a BETTER built gun than a Colt is inaccurate IMHO.

C4,

I can't find any suggestion in this thread that S&W is a BETTER built gun than Colt.

You seem knowledgeable of the AR platform. I'm relatively new to AR's and trying to learn. Can you explain your position that the present day Colt is a better weapon? What facts (no opinions please) lead you to this conclusion? Can you point me to an authority that supports your position of pesent day Colt superiority? No disrespect meant, I ask in all seriousness.

 

[C4IGrant]

C4,

I can't find any suggestion in this thread that S&W is a BETTER built gun than Colt.

You seem knowledgeable of the AR platform. I'm relatively new to AR's and trying to learn. Can you explain your position that the present day Colt is a better weapon? What facts (no opinions please) lead you to this conclusion? Can you point me to an authority that supports your position of pesent day Colt superiority? No disrespect meant, I ask in all seriousness.

Simple. TDP. COLT has it and no one (less FN) has it. This is a standard to follow and produces the best fighting guns available. It is a set of standards to follow that other AR manufacturers do NOT have to follow.

C4

 

[storeyteller]

You might not, but some do. The reason why S&W did not go with chrome lining on the SPORT is for ONE reason, cost. Meloniting barrels is cheaper. In theory, this is better than chrome lining, but we won't know for certain for quite some time.

As a Noveske Distr. they make a great gun, but in certain ways are not up to all aspects of the TDP and Colt.



C4

I'm sure that the sport barrel was a cost thing and I don't begrudge anyone from trying to make a $. It does seem to me that they stumbled on to something with the 5R melonite barrel, for whatever reason.
I don't take the Noveske or Les Baer not meeting all aspects of the TDP as a bad thing though. I find it baffling that this seems to be the measuring stick for quality. If Fed Ex was only held up to the standards of the USPS they wouldn't be in business very long, and I doubt Noveske would be either if they were only held to 'mil-spec' requirements. Not to start a political debate but the Federal Govt, regardless of party, ain't exactly known for making very good decisions. YMMV.

 

[oneyeopn]

So because of a set of rules the Colt is better, regardless of all the engineering that shows how much better melonite or Salt NitroCarburization or QDQ whatever you decide to call it over hard chrome is. Thats your reasoning. Engineering tests show that Melonite (we shall call it that for simplicity sake) will outlast hard chrome by a factor of 3 and has twice the corrosion resistance of Stainless Steel. Because of a 50 year old set of engineering and metallurgical standards you claim are better than something that has been discovered and used for the last 12 years and the tests are out there to prove the 50 year old standards wrong.
and water flows uphill!!

 

[C4IGrant]

I'm sure that the sport barrel was a cost thing and I don't begrudge anyone from trying to make a $. It does seem to me that they stumbled on to something with the 5R melonite barrel, for whatever reason.

I agree.

I don't take the Noveske or Les Baer not meeting all aspects of the TDP as a bad thing though. I find it baffling that this seems to be the measuring stick for quality. If Fed Ex was only held up to the standards of the USPS they wouldn't be in business very long, and I doubt Noveske would be either if they were only held to 'mil-spec' requirements. Not to start a political debate but the Federal Govt, regardless of party, ain't exactly known for making very good decisions. YMMV.

Depends on what is important to you. If you are looking for a combat weapon it would. Many of the parts selected by Noveske and how they build the gun are specifically from the TDP. This is a clue that the TDP is well thought of by the higher end manufacturers.

The Govt didn't write the TDP, Colt did. So your analogy is not correct.


C4

 

[storeyteller]

Thanks for the info. Always like to learn something new.

 

[C4IGrant]

So because of a set of rules the Colt is better, regardless of all the engineering that shows how much better melonite or Salt NitroCarburization or QDQ whatever you decide to call it over hard chrome is.

Well, currently yes. This may change, but that is some ways off (think we might see it in future trials though).

Keep in mind that the barrel is only ONE part of the gun. So just because a company does one part well does not mean the entire platform is better.

Engineering tests show that Melonite (we shall call it that for simplicity sake) will outlast hard chrome by a factor of 3 and has twice the corrosion resistance of Stainless Steel. Because of a 50 year old set of engineering and metallurgical standards you claim are better than something that has been discovered and used for the last 12 years and the tests are out there to prove the 50 year old standards wrong.
and water flows uphill!!

Actually we have not seen a full .Gov test involving tons of guns for super high round counts. All we have is theory (currently).

With that said, I am a fan of QDQ and believe it is where things need to go (or something similar). I just don't judge an ENTIRE weapons quality by the barrel alone.


C4

 

[C4IGrant]

Thanks for the info. Always like to learn something new.

You are welcome Sir.



C4

 

[JaPes]

Simple. TDP. COLT has it and no one (less FN) has it.

C4

IMany of the parts selected by Noveske and how they build the gun are specifically from the TDP. This is a clue that the TDP is well thought of by the higher end manufacturers.

The Govt didn't write the TDP, Colt did. So your analogy is not correct.


C4

Ummm so which is it? If "COLT has it and no one (less FN) has it. ", then how the heck can Noveseke build the gun specifically from the TDP?


Yea TDP!

You know McDonalds has the best burger, the BIG MAC, because of their secret sauce. No one else has it. Over the years no one has figured out what goes into the McDonald's secret sauce to ever replicate it.

 

[C4IGrant]

Ummm so which is it? If "COLT has it and no one (less FN) has it. ", then how the heck can Noveseke build the gun specifically from the TDP?

Well, "specifically" is not accurate. They (Noveske) closely follow the TDP in some areas, but not others.

There are all kinds of "black market" copies of the TDP out there and most of your better AR manufacturers or AR assemblers (which is more accurate) have an outdated copy of the TDP.

Yea TDP!

You know McDonalds has the best burger, the BIG MAC, because of their secret sauce. No one else has it. Over the years no one has figured out what goes into the McDonald's secret sauce to ever replicate it.

The TDP is a living document that changes. Do you know that Colt deviates from the TDP as they have proven to the Govt that there are better ways to do certain things??

The problem (IMHO) with the bulk of the current AR "manufacturers" is that many of them cannot meet the TDP let alone go past it. When companies are not forced to follow a set standard, they follow the standard that puts the most money in their pocket (AKA cutting corners). This might be ok on certain guns, but isn't ok on others. YMMV.




C4