Mil-spec vs Non Mil-spec

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I was on another site and someone posted about buying a High Standard AR 15, to which he was bashed about owning a hobby rifle, commercial rifle, plinker, paper punching rifle. I really want to understand what is going to happen to a "non-fighting" rifle such as a M&P15, Bushmaster, DPMS (anything thats not Colt, DD, Larue, etc)that is pushed to its limits. Is mil-spec really all that. It seems to some that is if you don't own a mil-spec AR it's not gonna go bang when you need it the most. All opinions are welcome.
 
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It is only a Gvt. Spec. Standard for Gvt. purchase. While it gives some idea of quality level, it is not necessarily a guarantee of quality being higher than some non-Mil Spec parts or rifles.

Many very high quality triggers, bbl.s , rails, etc. are, arguably, higher quality than Mil Spec parts they replace.

S &W's Melonite, R5 twist bbl. , std. on the Sport and other recent models would be my choice over a Colt 1/7 chrome lined bbl., for instance.
 
Actually, MIL-DTL-70599 B is just mil-spec for requirements and verfication for acceptance and testing for acceptance. It outlines maximums and minimums for testing acceptance of a weapon and for that weapon to remain in service. Mil-spec contains a whole lot of things, from dimensions to materials to coatings to a whole bunch of things, MIL-DTL-70599 B is just a small part of it all. For example, MIL-B-11595E(AR) w/AMENDMENT 1 (26 July 2004) specifies the steel specs for "BAR, METAL AND BLANKS, STEEL (UNDER 2 INCHES IN DIAMETER) FOR BARRELS OF SMALL ARMS WEAPONS" which includes the M4 barrel.

Mil-spec is free, its property that is ultimately owned by the American tax payer. Any manufacturer that can manufacture to mil-spec can manufacture a mil-spec weapon in either some or all aspects as they wish, and meet the same level of quality or mil-spec without resorting to something like the Colt TDP (which overall is simply Colt's road map for how they meet mil-spec with their particular military weapon design). For example, the M&P15OR, a semi-auto only weapon, meets mil-spec for aspects but the barrel is 4140 steel (and is 1:9 twist) which is more than suitable for semi-auto fire. Another example, S&W informs us that all of their M&P15 series chambers spec'd for 5.56 are mil-spec 5.56 chambers. Mil-spec has no bearing on quality or worthiness, its just minimum and maximum specs for military weapons, and any manufacturer that can read and is capable can manufacturer to mil-spec just like Colt or anyone else.

The difference of the "fighting weapon" concept is something Colt started using in relation to their military contract weapon and has been put forth by fans like its a standard or something by not understanding what the distinction is in relation to civilian model weapons. The truth is what they are talking about is combat action-theater used military weapons, and then trying to use that to compare apple to oranges as if all others that are not "fighting weapons" are inferior in quality and that is simply not true.

Sure, you can go down a list of things in a side by side comparision of parts for this or that, and people will say this or that in relation to mil-spec that this or that is or is not mil-spec, but honestly, take a look at that. Do you go to a Toyota dealership and look at the parts of a Toyota model and then say your not going to buy it because its not a Ford? Duh! Manufacturers for civilain weapons may or may not meet all mil-specs, it doesn't mean anything if they don't meet, for example, the mil-spec for an automatic fire military weapon barrel in a civilian semi-auto only weapon.

So what does all this mil-spec stuff mean in relation to civilian AR platform weapons? Nothing really, only that the military’s main supplier of mil-spec rifles is following the same mil-spec for their civilian rifles in some or all aspects as any other manufacturer is able to do and does with mil-spec for their civilian weapons. The only difference then becomes how a manufacturer addresses the market they are trying to reach with various features and/or price points for a quality weapon intended for the civilian environment. Mil-spec is eaisly beat by the quality put into manufacturers firearms today.

I simply would not let it worry me, let the others get wrapped around the mil-spec or the Colt TDP argument - its stupid and misrepresentative. You got a S&W M&P15 then you got a quality weapon for civilian use that will serve you just as well as any other quality civilian weapon from another manufacturer.

Note: Contrary to belief and sales pitch, the Colt TDP can not be used to make a civilian weapon. The specs of a Colt may be mil-spec as are specs of other manufacturers weapons, and it can be said that a Colt civilian weapon is manufacturered in accordance with the Colt TDP only because mil-spec is part of Colts TDP so its sales and marketing word tricks, but Colt is prohibited from actually using the TDP to make a civilian available weapon even if it is produced in the same manufacturing infrastructure environment. So if for example Colt says they meet the Colt TDP for a mil-spec 5.56 chamber, and another manufacturer says they meet mil-spec for a 5.56 chamber, its actually the same thing because both meet the same mil-spec for a 5.56 chamber and Colt and their fans are just playing sales or marketing word tricks.
 
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FWIW, Walmart sells more Colt AR's than any other rifle.

This whole mil-spec argument has always struck me as ludicrous. High power and Three Gun competitors put more rounds down range each year than most combat troops and their rifles sure aren't mil-spec.

To most competitors, these games aren't simply a matter of life or death. They are more important than that.
 
The only mil-spec I worry about is whether or not the forward pivot pin is mil-spec. In the early days, Colt's, of all people, made their civilian AR15, the SP1, with a non-mil-spec pivot pin arrangement. The pin hole in these rifles is smaller and later manufactured upper receivers, with the bigger "mil-spec pivot pin, cannot be assembled to the SP1's lower.
I own a Colt's SP1 and the quality is outstanding compared to some other AR15's out there. However, if I had to go to war in a hurry, my High Standard AR15-A2 or my Stag Arms carbine would be my choice. That's my two cents worth.
 
Just got through needing my AR the most (today) and it performed flawlessly. There were some insurgent zombie anarchists (crows) about 200yds away preparing to attack (I called 'em). Killed 2 from an ambush position (hunting blind) before the rest lost their nerve and retreated (flew away). Just another day protecting the species (decoys) for me and sportie. We will be back out there tomorrow keeping the world (pecan orchard) safe.

"Doin good ain't got no end." Capt 'Redlegs' Terril

:D:D:D:D:D
 
I really wrung out my non-milspec Sport today also. I actually shot more rounds in a civilian setting than I ever have at one time, and chronographed them also. I have 455 empty cases that need reloaded but I know how I am going to load them to work for me. I ran them cold and low pressured and ran them hot and over max recommended, only by .2 grains. I found out how much powder I can put in case before it doesnt get completely burned in the barrel and what that does to an AR gas system. Toward the end of the shooting my ventilated handguard was starting to get warm and when I popped a mag out it was pretty darn warm. No jams, no FTF or FTE's, no problems whatsoever other than I have a really dirty rifle now. When the powder isnt burning clean the rifle gets really really dirty, when you can see little rings of carbon building up on the oil holes on the BCG you know its dirty. LOL
 
I was on another site and someone posted about buying a High Standard AR 15, to which he was bashed about owning a hobby rifle, commercial rifle, plinker, paper punching rifle. I really want to understand what is going to happen to a "non-fighting" rifle such as a M&P15, Bushmaster, DPMS (anything thats not Colt, DD, Larue, etc)that is pushed to its limits. Is mil-spec really all that. It seems to some that is if you don't own a mil-spec AR it's not gonna go bang when you need it the most. All opinions are welcome.

It all depends on who's running the Kool-Aid stand,what day of the week it is and the time of day. If we're going to play. Let's play right. I want a FULL AUTO Combat Issued Colt US 5.56 weapon and THEN bring on the civilian Colt 5.56 and lets play that game one on one. I'll be real nice and stick to semi auto (on the Combat model),Kool-Aid Colt just has to keep up with my rate of fire,how I shoot,in my weather conditions and NO cleaning/lubing until one fails. Most of those semi auto Colt Kool-Aid drinkers "think" they have the ultimate weapon. In all reality,it's just a knock of of the real deal too. You auto fire the civilian version of the Colt and it'll cook just as fast (if not faster) than just about any of the other 5.56 AR's. I'll stick to my M&P's thank you... :o
 
I really wrung out my non-milspec Sport today also.

Actually your Sport is mil-spec. Your Sport uses the same mil-spec as all M&P15 series rifles, and all manufacturers including Colt, do for aspects of mil-spec such as 5.56 chambers, mil-spec bolts and carrier dimensions, mil-spec firing pin dimensions, mil-spec receiver material, mil-spec coatings, etc.... It is mil-spec. Its mil-spec specific in relation to its application as a civilian weapon intended for the feature variable civilian market. Your Sport, and all M&P15 series rifles, use the same mil-spec in aspects that a Colt civilian AR platform weapon or any other manufacturer AR platform civilian weapon uses.

Broadly, what mil-spec is = specifications to meet a criteria for application to an intended use in an intended use (military) environment.

The commercial civilian market has applied the same mil-spec, but they have a different market so they do things to appeal to their market (and follow the law for civilian weapons) so they use feature variation. For example; The Sport uses a 4140 steel barrel, its a semi-auto fire only weapon and 4140 is less expensive per unit than 4150 which is used for the military weapon auto fire. Yet the same military weapon barrel and the civilian 4140 steel barrel both exhibit the same needed properties at semi-auto fire rates and semi-auto is all you need for a civilian weapon and using a steel for auto fire adds nothing for the consumer plus the cost savings from using whats needed instead of whats not needed (and would be wasted) in a barrel gets passed on to the consumer.

In other words, your Sport and all M&P15s use "specifications to meet a certain criteria for application to an intended use in an intended use environment." and that use is a certain civilian use in a civilian environment and uses mil-spec specifications in a weapon designed for the civilian market.
 
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I was on another site and someone posted about buying a High Standard AR 15, to which he was bashed about owning a hobby rifle, commercial rifle, plinker, paper punching rifle. I really want to understand what is going to happen to a "non-fighting" rifle such as a M&P15, Bushmaster, DPMS (anything thats not Colt, DD, Larue, etc)that is pushed to its limits. Is mil-spec really all that. It seems to some that is if you don't own a mil-spec AR it's not gonna go bang when you need it the most. All opinions are welcome.

This is a common question I see on every forum. What I ask my customers to do is to be honest about how they are going to use their AR's. Some examples are:

1. Target/plinking
2. Varmint/hunting
3. Defense/Training
4. Competition
5. Safe queen

There AR's for all the above areas and of course some overlap. With some of the above categories, "Mil-Spec" or following the TDP really doesn't matter. Get a gun that is in your price and accuracy range and drive on. Still others aren't going to shoot their gun at ALL so get whatever you like.

Mil-Spec and TDP (technical data package) are two different things. The worst AR on the planet could be "mil-spec" simply because parts of it could interchange with a real M16 or M4. Doesn't means that those parts are quality, but that they "fit" together. So it is important to realize that just because something is dimensionally accurate that it doesn't mean that it is actually a quality part.

The TDP defines everything about the M16 or M4. Pin size, length, chrome thickness, anodizing color, gas port size, hardness of certain parts, chamber dims, what kind of high pressure rounds you can use for testing and protocols for MPI. The list goes on and on. As an example, I once got a bolt catch pin that I felt was undersized. So I called my buddy at Colt and verified the specs for that part. Sure enough it was out of spec.

So is what the TDP calls for important to you? Well that depends on what you want to do with your AR. For many, they will never fire more than 100rds a year. While I will (as a firearms instructor), will shoot 5,000rds or more via teaching or attending training. So for me, I want the company I buy a gun or parts from to follow a standard (not just make up their own). From my personal experience, companies that follow the TDP (or have the TDP) are going to produce the more reliable AR's.

Since Colt has been brought up in this thread, I will share what I know (as I have many inside contacts within this company). First, the MAJORITY of parts used in the US Military issued M4A1 are also found in the LE6920, 6720, 6940, 6933 and 6921. That means that the barrel material, entire BCG, gas port size, chamber, anodizing, receiver extension, buffer, stock, charging handle, carry handle, flash hider, FSB, castle nut, receiver plate, buffer spring, HPT, MPI, upper receiver, HG's, etc, etc are the EXACT same and are made on the SAME assembly line as the M4A1.
Where there are differences is in the FCG (fire control group) as the M4A1 has an auto sear and an extra hole drilled into the lower receiver. The lower receiver also has the hard stops for the selector (which is of the FA variety).

FN (the only other TDP holder) is not allowed to use their TDP to produce the M16A2/A4 so that is why we do not see any semi-auto guns out of them in the M16 family.

For me personally, I don't own a single factory built AR (from any manufacturer) as I prefer to build my own. So do your own research, talk to people that work in the AR world and decide what is important to you in an AR. After that, just go shoot the gun and get some training!



C4
 
I was on another site and someone posted about buying a High Standard AR 15, to which he was bashed about owning a hobby rifle, commercial rifle, plinker, paper punching rifle. I really want to understand what is going to happen to a "non-fighting" rifle such as a M&P15, Bushmaster, DPMS (anything thats not Colt, DD, Larue, etc)that is pushed to its limits. Is mil-spec really all that. It seems to some that is if you don't own a mil-spec AR it's not gonna go bang when you need it the most. All opinions are welcome.

Johnny "Mil-Spec" is only a standard set by the military to mass produce something. It don't mean sqwat in the AR buisness anymore. Todays manufacturers have set their own high standards which meets and exceeds mil-spec. So go out and buy that M&P 15 with confidence of quality standards.
 
Johnny "Mil-Spec" is only a standard set by the military to mass produce something. It don't mean sqwat in the AR buisness anymore. Todays manufacturers have set their own high standards which meets and exceeds mil-spec.

Exactly! And Taurus meets and exceeds S&W standards

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2
 
Taurus makes an AR? Sorry Arik, that troll won't hunt.

I dont know if they do or not but I was commenting on this "Todays manufacturers have set their own high standards which meets and exceeds mil-spec."

How many manufacturers of ARs are out there? How many are worth a darn? How many will tell you what kind of metal they use? What standards they are built to?

Interarms maybe? No Star. Or..wait there is also Double Star....gotta be better, right....2 stars and all! DPMS? SGM? Windham? Bushmaster? There are probably another 500 AR companies out there and only a handful actually use quality components.

I own a Colt but not because of the name but because I happened to get it really cheap. When I was looking into ARs They Colt was the cheapest on my list and the one I bought just happened to fall into my lap at the right time.
 
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