Personal Defense Ammo

[ohbejuan]

Since my last topic was such a hit (not), I figured I'd ask about this one. Yes, I understand an AR-15 is not the best personal defense weapon, I don't really care what your opinion is on that matter whichever way it falls.

However, I am interested to know if anyone has had experience shooting something like Hornady TAP FPD 75gr or Hornady TAP FPD 55gr in their M&P 15? I've scoured several posts on the matter that seem to allude to the fact that the 1 in 9" twist may not stabilize a 75gr projectile. Any experience with this ammo, 75gr ammo, or any other recommendations for personal defense ammo with your M&P 15?

I've been a Federal fan in the past, but I am concerned that soft-nose bullets might not chamber properly the first time

 

[Desert Five-0]

I think the AR 15 can be a good choice for home defense depending on your setup. A weapon light helps. Iron sights or red dot would be preferred over a magnified optic.

As for ammo, from what I have read the 75 grain may not be optimal for the 1 in 9 twist barrel. A 55 grain should do well. Our department used Federal 55 grain hollow points. I don't recall which ones.

For home defense you have to consider over penetration if you have others in different parts of the home or neighbors close by.

 

[rtquig]

I would agree with Desert Five-O, 55 grain for the home would be my choice. You really don't want to go through walls and hit someone by mistake.

 

[S&W45Colt]

Do you consider barrier penetration a factor? I'm going to assume the last thing you want to do is punch through walls in your home. The Federal 223L's are a good SD load, Winchester R223R2's and the Barnes 55 gr TSX get good reviews as well.

I would definitely stay from the 75 grain load unless you've tested it in your gun with a 1/9 twist. The heavier bullet app is typically a long distance or sub-sonic load. If you are looking for sub-sonic, the .300 black out is worth a look. It also offers better short range punch, S&W makes a .300 rifle in it's AR platforms. JMO.

 

[cyphertext]

Unfortunately, the only real answer is to try them in your rifle. In theory, the 1:9 barrel is not optimal but each barrel is different.

The 55gr should work with your barrel with no issue. However, the real question is if those rounds are worthwhile as self defense loads. I was having a discussion on another board and they said that the Hornady TAP rounds were varmint rounds and will separate upon impact. I started looking around the net, and sure enough, the TAP rounds fall well short of the 12" minimum penetration in ballistics gel that is the FBI standard for reliably hitting vitals.

 

[ohbejuan]

I've also thought about the Winchester PDX1 line as well. I don't believe any sort of barrier penetration (before hitting the target) would be a concern. It's hard to imagine too many justifiable home defense uses for going through a barrier before. Otherwise, I would probably use something like a NATO Green Tip if I was going for barrier penetration.

The concern with the Federal and some others I've seen (that are soft point) are the warnings/notices/etc that always say "ONLY CHAMBER ONCE". I'm assuming it's due to the fact that they are soft tip, and if that happens to get butchered/flattened/otherwise-non-pointed that it could hang on the feed ramps before being chambered properly. The 75gr Hornady looked quite smooth but the 55gr version did not look so smooth as to not have that issue. Obviously if the 75gr won't hit the target out to 25-50-100 yards, that's a much bigger problem than not feeding at all!

 

[Drag]

Department Of Homeland Security thinks MSRs are ideal PERSONAL DEFENSE WEAPONS.

» DHS buys 7000 full-auto assault rifles, calls them ?personal defense weapons? Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!

DHS and its components have a requirement for a 5.56x45mm NATO, select-fire firearm suitable for personal defense use in close quarters and / or when maximum concealment is required.

 

[Arik]

A) ARa are good HD weapons. Light weight, 30rd mag means less reloading, good SD round has less drywall penetration than a 12G 00 Buck.

Typically a heavy 75gr has less long range accuracy in a 1/9 barrel because it doesn't get as well stabilized as a 55 or a 69gr. But at distances inside a house it wouldnt matter

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[Waywatcher]

I currently load Q3313/R556B in my defense mags for my Colt. 64 grain bonded solid base; the FBI load for 5.56.

My second choice would be Mk318 which I've tried but I ran out. 62 grain OTM.

My third choice would be Mk262 which I have not tried. 77 grain OTM.

 

[REM 3200]

A) But at distances inside a house it wouldnt matter

There's the key. Hard to claim SD at 100 or more yds.

 

[ohbejuan]

So you guys think a 1 in 9 with a 75gr bullet would act quite similar to the 55gr version out to 100 yd max?

 

[vipermd]

The Winchester RA223R2 uses a 64 gr soft point with their "Protected point". I think what has been said is that the 75 gr will not stabilize well with 1:9 for shooting 50-75-100-300, and may have a tendency to over penetrate. The 55 gr -65 gr SHOULD stabilize in the 1:9 and proven loads are available in these weight ranges. Look at the manufacturers sites and they will have gel testing results that may help you decide. Be Safe,

 

[Fishinfool]

I have not had much luck stabilizing anything heavier then 69 grain bullets in my 1-9 twist guns. Personally, for possible self defense use, I keep a 30 round mag loaded with 55 grain Nosler Partitions (reloads or Federal), as I know they will expand and penetrate. If you don't reload, the Winchester 64 grain Power Points also have a good reputation.

I would stay away from FMJ's, as they lack the stopping power of an expanding bullet, and may penetrate to much for use in an urban / home environment. Same with fast expanding varmint type bullets, as I would question their ability to penetrate deeply enough, especially if the assailant is wearing a heavy coat. I would not worry about an exposed lead tip deforming while feeding, as while it might effect long range accuracy, it should not effect feeding reliability or performance at self defense ranges.

Larry

 

[WR Moore]

OK, it's very unlikely that given the 16" barrel, that 1-9 twist will stabilize a 75 gr bullet. I know a 18.5 inch 1-10 won't, the bullet goes through targets sideways at 25 yards. On the other hand, my 26 inch bolt gun with 1-9 does so, but it's running much higher velocities/rpms than you'll see from a 16 inch barrel. You need to go lighter.

FBI testing indicates that 40-50 gr .223 ammo has less barrier penetrative ability than many JHP handgun loads commonly used for defense/duty use. Depending upon bullet type, that may extend to 55 gr. Buying factory ammo, you may not know the actual bullet brand/type, but something like the Sierra 50-55gr Blitz bullet might be just what you're looking for. Yes, it's a varmint bullet, so is the Blitz King which has a thicker jacket. But if you're worried about over penetration, this would be the way to go.

You don't need bonded cores unless you expect to shoot someone through a car windshield in your house.

Winchesters 64 gr PowerPoint was developed for white tail deer. It would be a good load for anti-personnel use, even if I don't like Winchester QC. Take a look at the Black Hills line and don't be afraid to ask for recommendations.

Only chamber once is a very good idea for any non-cannelured ammo in any semi-auto rifle (or pistol for that matter). Store hammer down, empty chamber.

If you're looking at using an AR in the house, buy yourself some quality electronic ear muffs. This will allow you to hear things in the house and still keep your hearing if you actually have to fire.

 

[Arik]

So you guys think a 1 in 9 with a 75gr bullet would act quite similar to the 55gr version out to 100 yd max?

Only way to find out is to buy a box and try. My Colt has s 1/9 barrel and seems fine with 70+gr. They are less accurate but seem to stabilize. I havnt tried every manufacturer so im sure theres a mix of weight, powder, bullet design that wont work for me

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[REM 3200]

So you guys think a 1 in 9 with a 75gr bullet would act quite similar to the 55gr version out to 100 yd max?

You will have to try it in your barrel. They are all different.

 

[rojodiablo]

Unfortunately, the only real answer is to try them in your rifle. In theory, the 1:9 barrel is not optimal but each barrel is different.

The 55gr should work with your barrel with no issue. However, the real question is if those rounds are worthwhile as self defense loads. I was having a discussion on another board and they said that the Hornady TAP rounds were varmint rounds and will separate upon impact. I started looking around the net, and sure enough, the TAP rounds fall well short of the 12" minimum penetration in ballistics gel that is the FBI standard for reliably hitting vitals.

The catch there is the intended lack of penetration. Believe me when I say these types of ammo DO have impact. The key is, the damage is localized. When you hit a groundhog with them........ it just vaporizes. When you hit a coyote with them..... he quits chasing the roadrunner right there ont he spot!
They will not penetrate deep; but they still impart the shock of transfering the energy in the bullet all at once, right into whatever they impact. If they hit a person? A mild hematoma is not what they would incur. From my experience with hogs, this would leave a smashed up bruise area of about 8" around, by about 6" deep beyond the actual penetration. Anything in that shocked area is rendered mulch and mush.
Several of the hogs fell, got up and ran off. We found them in various states of dead and living, mostly it depended on the normal 2 parameters: Size, and shot placement. We have killed a few DRT with chest shots. Head and neck are always DRT. The bigger hogs all pretty much fall down, get up and run anywhere from 2ft to 20 yards. When we found them live, after waiting to let them cool off and go into shock, not one of them really had much ability to run. Most had a broken rib, and a shattered lung. Intestine shots rendered a tremendous mess, as the internal damage was just....complete.
Were I really looking for a HD round for this rifle, I would split the difference between a TAP and a HTBT or a soft point like a Federal Fusion; I would go with a ballistic tip from Winchester or Federal. Some penetration, and then a total collapse of the bullet internally. These are by far the better option, because they will get in and really do their job.

Stick to 55gr or 62. The 1-9 barrel just does not like the heavier ammo.

 

[rojodiablo]

So you guys think a 1 in 9 with a 75gr bullet would act quite similar to the 55gr version out to 100 yd max?

That's a definite maybe.

But with a 16" barrel, I would say the results would be 3-5MOA. With a 20" barrel, it would be down in the 2-3MOA range.
That's about where we have seen them fall, thru a lot of different rifles.

 

[shawn mccarver]

It seems like an AR is a good defense weapon. The police use them and, by definition, all police use is for defense.

As to ammo, Gunsite tested the .223 Varmint loads years ago and found they penetrate typical dry wall construction materials less than 9mm hollowpoints. If penetration is important to you, the use an expanding type round.

 

[Ronnielc]

You need a silencer!