.40 vs .45 caliber

[JACKAL0PE]

Let me first introduce myself by saying that what I know about the relative ballistic characteristics of ammunition can be written on the back of a matchbook with a very large grease pencil. It's pretty much limited to, "this one is bigger than that one"...and of course, that certain ammunition is designed to inflict more damage (i.e. hollowpoints, flechettes, etc.). That's it. That's about all I know. I came here to read and learn.

I said all that so that no one will think I'm challenging their statements. My questions are an attempt to learn more.

But the debate earlier just doesn't make any sense to me. If there's no such thing as knockdown power or one shot stop or hydrostatic pressure or all those other things mentioned earlier, why don't the police just carry a .22 LR cartridge? it's cheaper and lighter. If there's no ballistic benefit to larger cartridges, then what's the point of carrying them?

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

I usually refrain from adding to posts that have a lot of replies, particularly when I'm not sure I have anything to add. In this case I'll make an exception.

In the original (?) FBI tests, when they were looking for what cartridge would suit them, the .40 S&W and the .45ACP were about equal by their measurement. Ordinarily, that wouldn't mean much to me, but this time it did, because I felt that they actually had a good set of tests (gelatin behind various levels of clothing, and a requirement for reasonable penetration).

The .40 S&W reaches that performance with much higher pressure than the .45ACP. The .40 S&W is a slightly smaller cartridge than the .45 ACP. In some places, there may be a wider choice of ammo in .45ACP. There is a wider choice of guns in .45ACP.

I consider the cartridges about equal, and would make the choice based on the guns available, not on the cartridge itself. For me, that STRONGLY dictates one cartridge over the other, but I have no disagreement at all with someone who chooses the other way, based on what gun or guns fit him.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

dont forget one of the big issues for LE was the actual frame size and weight of the 45's. a lot of smaller framed agents and women couldnt comfortably handle it. the .40 is a GREAT cartridge and was developed specifically for maximum LE needs.

I don't think that I understand this. I thought that the 1911, a .45ACP, was one of the BEST guns for folks with smaller hands. More important, the .40 S&W offerings, at least originally, were ALL larger (in grip circumference and most other measurements) than the 1911. Probably bigger than a 645, too. Perhaps this has changed in recent years. Do you know of any gun in .40 S&W that is more suitable for small hands than the 1911?

 

[Cal44]

I'm not an LEO, an EMT, or a coroner -- just an engineering/science type.

But it seems to me the ballistics are so similar between 40S&W, 45 ACP, 44 Special, and 45 colt (with factory loads) that there can't be much difference in effectiveness.

Where you hit the target is the most important.

And which bullet (projectile) you use is second most important.

As for recoil, I really don't think there would be much difference based on cartridge -- at least that's how it seems with my own shooting.

Recoil is more related to the weight of the gun, type (ie., revolver or auto), the type of grip, and the particular loading.

So if someone has any of the above calibers in a gun they like and can shoot well, then there is no real reason to change IMO.

Or course, none of us really needs a reason to buy another gun...

Dave

 

[JACKAL0PE]

But what do you do when one does NOT own such a gun and is trying to decide what to buy.

By one route or another, I've accumulated almost a dozen handguns, but with one exception, they're all .380 or smaller. That one exception is a huge framed .38 S&W special with a very short barrel...that IMO is unsuitable for concealed carry.

I'm not an expert. I don't even claim to be an average marksman. I've taken several courses. I'm fair. I can more or less hit what I'm aiming at, assuming it isn't moving or shooting back. But shortly I'll be retired and I'm going to start "flipping" cars for extra money. That means I'll be meeting strangers while I'm carrying a load of cash. I want to make sure that whatever I'm carrying has got the horsepower to stop someone if I do NOT score a perfect hit. I accept that shot placement is king. I also accept that I won't always make that perfect shot. So what gun do I get?

 

[LimaCharlie]

Buy the best gun you can afford in the largest caliber you can control and will carry every day. Either the caliber is an acceptable self-defense round. My personal choice for routine carry is a government size 1911 in either .45 ACP or 10mm. I also pocket carry a Springfield XDS-45 as a backup gun.

 

[Cal44]

But what do you do when one does NOT own such a gun and is trying to decide what to buy.

By one route or another, I've accumulated almost a dozen handguns, but with one exception, they're all .380 or smaller. That means I'll be meeting strangers while I'm carrying a load of cash. I want to make sure that whatever I'm carrying has got the horsepower to stop someone if I do NOT score a perfect hit.

Well, I don't know how often you will be carrying a lot of cash, but if you do a few cash deals a month you could afford to carry a larger, heavier gun than you would want if you carried it full time every day.

The rest of the time, you could either go unarmed or perhaps carry your 380.

So I think it would make sense to get a fairly large, heavier gun as those are easier to control and become proficient with.

If it were me, and I didn't have anything already, I'd do what LimaCharlie suggested and get a full size, steel, 45acp 1911 or, if you prefer, a 4" revolver like a 625.

45acp is pretty cheap to practice with, isn't too hard to control, and has been doing the job for a century.

Dave

 

[Boge]

"Knockdown" power is a term used by John "Pondoro" Taylor years ago for qualifying Big Game rifle calibers in Africa. "Stopping" power is a far more modern term and is indeed relevant as some cartridge/bullet combos have shown to be far better at STOPPING an adversary with a good hit than others. By using the term "stopping" I mean forcing someone to stop what they are doing (usually trying to hurt/kill you). This does not imply directly killing the individual, however the nature of matter sometimes entails as such.

The rounds I would put in this category are the 9mm 115 gr. +p+ (such as the legendary Fed. BPLE & Win. as well), 125 gr. JHP .357 Mag. & .357 SIG and finally the 155 gr. Rem. .40 S&W JHP as loaded for the BP. These rounds have stellar histories that are above other contemporary rounds for their respective eras.

Just my 2 cents (worth 0.0015 under Obama).

 

[boomer1983]

i prefer the .40 magnum (10mm) over both for ''knockdown power'' but .45 is a close second

 

[snowman.45]

There are a number of considerations in how lethal any hit with any caliber bullet might be. As someone said before, let's start with shot placement. The ability to immediately stop a fight through shutting down the CNS is the number 1 consideration. Then there's permanent and temporary wound channels. How much tissue disruption and blood loss does it take to end the fight? And, of course, finally there's penetration. Again, what level of tissue disruption does it take to stop the fight? Will it be actually striking an organ (or several)? Will it take a direct strike on the spinal cord or brain. All of these considerations play into the argument.

As an LEO for 36 years, most in SWAT and as a Range Master, with a considerable amount of time in Investigations as both a Detective and a Sergeant, I've had occasion to talk with several pathologists regarding the lethality of the various calibers. In the last few years, they have told me that it is virtually impossible to tell the difference between calibers from 9mm to .40 S&W to .45 ACP due to the current sophistication of design of the bullets.

For the record, I'm required to carry 9mm (Glock 17/19/26) loaded with GDHP 124 gr. +P while working. Off-duty, I usually carry .45 ACP (Glock 30s, Springfield XDs, or M&P 45 (or a J-frame).

 

[JACKAL0PE]

Well, I don't know how often you will be carrying a lot of cash, but if you do a few cash deals a month you could afford to carry a larger, heavier gun than you would want if you carried it full time every day.

The rest of the time, you could either go unarmed or perhaps carry your 380.

So I think it would make sense to get a fairly large, heavier gun as those are easier to control and become proficient with.

If it were me, and I didn't have anything already, I'd do what LimaCharlie suggested and get a full size, steel, 45acp 1911 or, if you prefer, a 4" revolver like a 625.

45acp is pretty cheap to practice with, isn't too hard to control, and has been doing the job for a century.

Dave

Thanks Dave and LimaCharlie. Good advice, but I also have to consider what I'm going to be doing. If you were selling a car and were meeting the buyer in a shopping center parking lot for example, and he got out with a cannon strapped to his side, what would be your reaction?

My point here is that I need something that can be at least moderately concealed. I don't think a 1911 .45 is all that easy to conceal.

 

[JACKAL0PE]

There are a number of considerations in how lethal any hit with any caliber bullet might be. As someone said before, let's start with shot placement. The ability to immediately stop a fight through shutting down the CNS is the number 1 consideration. Then there's permanent and temporary wound channels. How much tissue disruption and blood loss does it take to end the fight? And, of course, finally there's penetration. Again, what level of tissue disruption does it take to stop the fight? Will it be actually striking an organ (or several)? Will it take a direct strike on the spinal cord or brain. All of these considerations play into the argument.

As an LEO for 36 years, most in SWAT and as a Range Master, with a considerable amount of time in Investigations as both a Detective and a Sergeant, I've had occasion to talk with several pathologists regarding the lethality of the various calibers. In the last few years, they have told me that it is virtually impossible to tell the difference between calibers from 9mm to .40 S&W to .45 ACP due to the current sophistication of design of the bullets.

For the record, I'm required to carry 9mm (Glock 17/19/26) loaded with GDHP 124 gr. +P while working. Off-duty, I usually carry .45 ACP (Glock 30s, Springfield XDs, or M&P 45 (or a J-frame).

Thanks Dave. I've been given to understand that a 9mm wasn't really enough of a stopper unless you were an extremely good shot...which I'm not.

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Thanks Dave and LimaCharlie. Good advice, but I also have to consider what I'm going to be doing. If you were selling a car and were meeting the buyer in a shopping center parking lot for example, and he got out with a cannon strapped to his side, what would be your reaction?

My point here is that I need something that can be at least moderately concealed. I don't think a 1911 .45 is all that easy to conceal.

A 1911 is one of the easiest guns to conceal, if you have a proper cover garment. If you don't, you're stuck with a pocket pistol, and then you still need the right kind of pockets, and a proper pocket holster, and it still might be easier to spot than a concealed 1911. Sometimes you might be better off buying clothing for the gun rather than a gun for the clothing.

 

[rwsmith]

Not smart, but....

Ha Ha,not this time. I see what you are saying exactly and agree that someone smarter than me should coin a new term to replace "knockdown power."

How about 'stopping potential'? We know that handguns don't knock people off their feet but the idea is to stop an attack...quickly. The word 'power' implies that more is automatically better but 'potential' indicates that the possibilities of stopping can be improved, partly by other factors, such as shot placement.

This is analogous to electricity having a potential of say, 110 volts. The potential is there but unless a proper path is provided where that potential can overcome resistance, there will be no flow of electricity. If a proper path is provided, there will be an actual flow of current.

 

[JACKAL0PE]

A 1911 is one of the easiest guns to conceal, if you have a proper cover garment. If you don't, you're stuck with a pocket pistol, and then you still need the right kind of pockets, and a proper pocket holster, and it still might be easier to spot than a concealed 1911. Sometimes you might be better off buying clothing for the gun rather than a gun for the clothing.

Far be it from me to argue with anyone here, but I don't understand how something as large as a 1911 could be "one of the easiest guns to conceal". It would seem to me that regardless of the garment used, a smaller weapon would be easier to conceal. Could you give some specifics?

 

[snowman.45]

Thanks Dave. I've been given to understand that a 9mm wasn't really enough of a stopper unless you were an extremely good shot...which I'm not.

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

As you can see from the discussions and arguments here, there is a lot of serious disagreement about this subject. I've had occasion to see the effects of shootings with 9mm, .40 and .45 first hand. All I can say is 9mm is very effective in ending a fight with lethal results. I've seen numerous shootings with 9mm in which the recipient was DRT. I've also seen several in which the .40 had less than lethal effects. The same is true for .45 ACP. So, in my experience, 9mm is quite lethal when there are center mass hits. One other consideration is how recoil affects follow-up shots. 9mm generally has less recoil and often allows for quicker target re-acquisition. Again, the progress in bullet design has had a profound effect on the damage caused by them.

I would have to say that, even as a .45 guy at heart, I have no problem carrying the 9mm handguns I'm issued. I have no doubt as to the capabilities of the 124 gr. +p GDHP.

 

[shawn mccarver]

All defense cartridges try to be "as good as" the .45 ACP. The .40 S&W strikes a nice balance between capacity and stopping power. It has almost the stopping power of the .45 ACP and almost the capacity of the 9mm.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Far be it from me to argue with anyone here, but I don't understand how something as large as a 1911 could be "one of the easiest guns to conceal". It would seem to me that regardless of the garment used, a smaller weapon would be easier to conceal. Could you give some specifics?

Well, what works best for me is a Milt Sparks Summer Special IWB, which is a Bruce Nelson creation that has been copied by several holster makers. I carry it at about 3:00 o'clock; others may move it a bit rearward. A smaller gun is NOT necessarily easier to conceal, even though I can see how you might think so. For instance, I find that the 1911 is easier to conceal than the Commander, because the shorter Commander on MY waist digs the muzzle into my right buttock, causing me to be tempted to shift the holster position occasionally. As for other smaller guns, I mostly can't say. I mean, why would I buy a smaller bottomfeeder and holster and play around to find that MAYBE it would work, when a full-size 1911 already works fine?

I realize that what works best for me may not be the same as what works best for others. Body shapes vary. For instance, the width of my shoulders causes normal off-the-rack clothing to provide sufficient room around my waist to conceal a stock 1911. Someone with a pear-shaped configuration might have entirely different results.

P.S. I think that one of the things that makes the 1911 very easy to conceal is that it is rather thin, particularly for the caliber. Many of the older autos were quite thin, although few were as easily carried safely and ready as the 1911.

 

[JACKAL0PE]

Thanks. That helps me understand better what you're talking about.

I'm a smaller guy...5'8". And to make bad matters worse, I'm long waisted and short legged. To me, a 1911 is just a cannon. I enjoy shooting one, but I can't imagine being able to hide it at all. It would come down to my knee.

I think what I'll need to look at are some of the smaller .45's like the Springfield XDS or the Glock G38.

 

[hangnoose]

CHOOSING A GUN/CALIBER

Jackalope, that's not really a decision somebody else should make for you. try several and see what works best for you and is in a size, wt, platform you prefer.