38 Special Brass questions

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cballman

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I was going thru some 38 special brass that I have had for a few years. What is the difference between plain or +p brass? Can these be loaded the same as regular or is there a lot of case difference? I know these questions are a little off but I would like to know.
 
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No difference at all in +P versus regular brass.

The +P marked brass is simply to identify the load level.
 
Reddog said:
The plus-p brass I have seems to be thicker walled. You might try weighing a few individual cases to check.
Dick
Click to expand...


I have weighed a bunch. The Plus P usually weighs a bit less.

Starline is an exception. They are the same in every respect except the headstamp markings.
 
This comes up now and then.

SOME makes of +P are thicker. Mil-spec, S&W-F (if you can find some) come to mind. There may be others, but you will not notice this unless you flush seat WC's; seating them out is not a problem. When this happens, there will be a noticeable bulge in the case and it will bind when chambered in a revolver. It will go in, but not without a little help. (I can't answer for their use in Model 52's; hopefully somebody with one will comment.)

With SWC's or jacketed bullets that are typically not seated as deeply, there is no practical difference. As has been stated, they are so marked to differentiate ammunition that has been loaded by the factory to higher pressure levels.
 
I have a couple hundred seperated and set back because of some problem in loading them. As I recall, most of them are RP. I'll have to dig them out and try loading some again. It seems I had a problem similar to what cjw3 mentioned?
Dick
 
For everyone who thinks there is a difference! You have to compare brass from the same manufacturer and made at approximately the same time. If you try to compare Winchester to Remington or Star-Line of course there will be differences seen. Within a few tenths of a grain variation cases can be considered identical.

Surprisingly the same applies when comparing .38 Spl and .357 Magnum brass from the same maker! The only difference generally is length. Try trimming a few .357 Magnum cases to .38 Spl. length and compare them with .38 Spl. cases from the same maker and you generally will find their weight to be the same within usual weight variation. Works for .44 Spl/Magnum too.
 
I can't attest to the fact that +p case walls are thicker, but I can verify that WCC +p+ Brass has thicker case walls. I picked up 2000 government WCC 84 +p+ .38 special brass (FBI) about 20 years ago from a friend. He was selling it at a local gun show and had a standard
.38 Special case and one of the +p+ cases cut length wise for compairson. The +p+ case wall is noticeibly thicker tapering to the head. I have been shooting this brass since I traded him out of all he had. I rarely throw any away. I trim it once in while and usually a case mouth will split from working it, but like the Energizer "Bunny", it keeps going and going and going! I loaded 100 rounds of it today as a matter of fact. Best deal I ever made!
 
Comparing brass

I often see people comparing 38 special cases to 38 special +P cases by weighing them. This probably comes close to determine their interchangeability but volume is the most accurate. Get a good syringe calibrated in ccs and fill both cases with water to compare them. Or more crudely just fill one case and carefully pour the water into the other case to compare the volume.

Paul
 
Current SAAMI pressure limits for the .38 Special are 17,000 psi and 18,500 psi for the .38 Special +P. I highly doubt thicker walls are needed for those low pressures especially since there are many who load to .357 Magnum pressures in standard .38 Special cases without issues. (but that's not a good idea)

I only wish I had more .38 Special +P brass because I like to easily identify the loads I have on the shelf. (Yes I do mark the plastic boxes well but mistakes can happen)
 
paulus said:
I often see people comparing 38 special cases to 38 special +P cases by weighing them. This probably comes close to determine their interchangeability but volume is the most accurate. Get a good syringe calibrated in ccs and fill both cases with water to compare them. Or more crudely just fill one case and carefully pour the water into the other case to compare the volume.

Paul
Click to expand...

Paulus,

First, welcome. Second, when preaching to the choir be sure the message doesn't contradict what the choir already knows to be correct, let me explain.

To be able to accurately make a direct measurement comparison between two cartridge cases the two must be in the same condition and with identical external dimensions. The way identical external dimensions are obtained is by either firing both cases in the same chamber, or full-length sizing in the same sizing die. The final step is to fill the cases with water as you say. However there is an alternate way of determining whether the internal dimensions are the same, and that is by weighing the two cases. If they weigh the same they have identical internal capacity! Why, because if the exterior is the same dimension, the volume of the brass in the case is the same, then the internal volume of the case is the same. Do you understand the logic? The advantage of weighing is you don't have to be sure the external dimensions are identical first. As long as the weights are within a few 1/10ths of a grain they can be considered identical.
 
It should read 18,500 for non-steel frames and 20,000 for steel frames but it is not going to happen.............

One reason the manuals state both as a +P rating..........
same as US vs Euro +p spec's.

The 9mm is even worse..............
Standard, NATO, +P and +P+ !!
 
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"they are so marked to differentiate ammunition that has been loaded by the factory to higher pressure levels."---cjw3

It's simply a lawyer thing......and not to be used in a non +P rated gun.

The brass is brass. No thicker/thinner. Headstamped only to designate a tiny bit more powder......in commercial ammo.

Although I cull all/any WCC brass for scrap/recycle, I wish you would send me 5 or 10 of the brass you say are thicker. I would like to test them against some I have. PM me for an address]
" but I can verify that WCC +p+ Brass has thicker case walls"---fredo batali
 
.38 spl and 9mm +P brass is different only in the head stamp showing the +P designation for load discrimination.

In the .45 ACP the +P cases are thicker at the base web and have smaller volume capacity than the non +P cases.
 
DR505 said:
FYI - I took a look at the SAAMI.ORG Centerfire Pistol and Revolver Pressure Data page and it states .38 Special is 17,000 PSI and .38 Special +P is 20,000 PSI.
Click to expand...
I consider the correct pressure limits for the .38 Special +P to be 20,000 psi but most sources on the net quote 18,500 psi so I use that number when making suggestions because it's better to be safe and not give out data that might be inaccurate.

Even if you use the 20,000 number my original statement holds true since the current limits for the .357 Magnum are 35,000 psi.
 
The way I've gotten if for .38

The only difference between +p brass and regular brass is the +p headstamp.``The reason is that the .38 case was designed from the start with the higher pressure in mind. The pressure spec was lowered but nothing else was changed. Except for the +p stamp to designate cartridges loaded to the original higher pressure. There will be a variance in case wall thicknesses, capacity, etc., but it is mostly due do manufacturing differences rather than any change in specs. Of course this doesn't hold true for specialized cases like the mil. spec. stuff.
 
I can see where volume would be the most accurate comparison, since rim thickness can vary and weight won't tell you if you have thicker walls or thicker rims.
Makes sense to me.

I actually ordered a couple of .38/357 molds today. A Lee 158 FN and a Lyman Devastator HP.
I know, I know, the Lyman is advertised as a .356" 124 grain 9mm/.38 Super mold.
Thing is, my buddy has this mold and all of our bullets cast from it dropped from the mold at .358" and 128 grains.
So, we can size them down for 9mm, or lube/shoot as cast for .38/light .357.
Double duty.
If we need, I can make a top punch and bump them up a thou or two.
Everyone should own a couple of lathes, mills, and shapers.

Anyhoo, I've never given much thought to case thickness variances between .38 and .38+P.
I just bought them and shoot them. I'm not new to reloading but I am new to reloading .38/.357.

I tell everyone I'm going to load .38/44 ammo for my .38s, but mostly I'll load mouse-fart .38 and .357 target loads, and a few .38/44s and real .357 mags for hunting use.

I once shot a box of Hirtenberger 100 grain SP 9mm+P+ out of my FEG P35 clone.
It was anticlimactic, to be sure. It recoiled like my Ruger MkII .22 LR.
Not what I expected.
Bet there isn't any real difference between standard 9mm and 9mm+P/+P+ brass, either.


Dang, my posts have a tendency to ramble.
I need to work on that.
 
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