Will Texas Finally Pass an Open Carry Law for Concealed Carry Licensees

I contend that the way to curb gun violence or even just violence is to do away with big cities or separate them. If you compare the crime rate of the million people of Montana against any city of a million or more it would be way lower. Very few rural areas have high crime rates. All large cities have high crime rates.


In small towns and rural areas people know a bigger percentage of their neighbors and everyone know who the jerks are. If you act like a jerk in a town of under 10,000 pretty soon everyone knows you are a jerk and you will get treated as one. In a big city you can be a jerk to lots of people everyday and hardly every run into one of them again. That anonymity goes a long ways towards having a bunch of people that could care less about those around them. Plus, in the little area the well to do have some real association with the poor and visa versa. In the bigger cities they stratify and the poor mostly get crowded together and the rich mostly associate with each other. Much easier to disregard and have contempt for each other. Here in my little town of 6000 I am a person. In a city of 1,000,000 I am just a number.

Well said but,th only thing I dont agree withis that there areant high crime rates in SOME small towns. The exceptions of the rle areboth Alice and Robstown, Texas. Both have a population of uder 30,000--and both are rampant with crime. The Walmart that USED to be in Robstown, closed its doors because 90% of the theft they had there-were fromits employees-and their relatives. :eek:

PS,im not saying that is what you ment--just I worded it wrong. :D
 
Some incident took place in Dallas in which some folks advocating open carry brought long arms into a restaurant named Chipotle. Now this chain because of this incident is asking all customers NOT to bring guns
into their restaurant. I do not open carry. However, this policy which they have now adopted means I will not be eating there nor will my friends and acquaintances. I did notice that former Mayor Bloomberg
has also asked Chipotle Restaurants to not allow guns there either.

I am not getting into the debate on open carry, but I will patronize no
restaurant which displays a 30.06 sign, or a 51 percent sign or which
has a publicly stated policy of asking their customers not to carry since
I believe this creates an unsafe environment for me to patronize.

I think this open carry question could cause a number of businesses to put up legal signs that
will force me to have to put them off my list of places to do business with.
Stores and restaurants that get pulled into this debate are going to
choose one way or the other, but if they choose to ask all their customers
not to carry, that means I will spend my money with some other restaurant. Prior to this incident Chipotle claimed they had taken no
side on this issue. Whether this restaurant simply was caving to
Mr. Bloomberg's pressure I have no way of determining nor do I care.
I do think those who hire armed security ought to have to rely on themselves and the police like the rest of us. There are no chains
on my feet when it comes to patronizing restaurants.
 
I am at a loss to explain how Massachusetts has permitted, open carry, and Texas does not. I'm confident however, that when Texas does adopt it, that it will be good law. Unlike here, where even the most ardent 2A supporter would not dare to OC in public. Some anti would be offended, threatened or the like, call law enforcement, and surely, a disorderly conduct/disturbing the peace issue would be documented. As the CLEO is the determining authority with respect to firearm license issuance, such documentation could support a denial due to suitability issues. Ironic and maddening, to be sure, since no gun law was broken.
 
.......but I will patronize no
restaurant which displays a 30.06 sign, or a 51 percent sign or which
has a publicly stated policy of asking their customers not to carry since
I believe this creates an unsafe environment for me to patronize.

I agree on the 30-06 sign, but on the 51% the store has no choice. If 51% of their sales come from alcohol the must post the sign.
 
Wow. Lots of passion on this one. Wonder if a guy can comment without getting flamed like a few pounds of Kingsford Mesquite Charcoal Briquettes. I bet I can, most of the folks on this board are pretty decent. I'll warn you, this is a long post. But it is a considerably deep subject and worth exploring in detail, because on both sides, the consequences are not meager or trivial to the Texans it will affect.

First off, no I'm not from 'Kalifornia' and yes, I am a native Texas who is a hardcore Reagan conservative. I used to yell at Rush on the radio for being too soft when explaining his points. I am lifetime member of the 'Enraged to the Point of Bulging-Eyeballs RINO Hater's Club' and would shoot Rick Perry, Joe Straus and John Cornyn to the moon in half a yoctosecond if I got the chance. I believe strongly in the 2nd Amendment and have been an NRA Member longer than most hipsters have been alive. So this is not coming from some squishy do-gooder. Having said that....

Nope. I simply don't think open carry is a very good idea. From a tactical standpoint, it accomplishes nothing excepts telegraphs that there is now a loaded firearm in every situation, conversation and confrontation, and those who would seek to depart that machinery from you now have a greater motivation to do so than before - it's hanging right in front of their eyes.

I don't believe open carry will deter or minimize any crime, especially violent crime against persons, because of any 'immanent threat' to criminals that a holstered weapon might present. In fact, I think it's the opposite. Instead of being a potential target of violent crime by persons who don't care if you live or die, you've just given them a certifiable reason why you SHOULD be attacked - their fully loaded, semi-auto motivation is in plain view. Spending 20 years in police work, I can tell you crooks, thugs and gang bangers don't think the way you think they do...it won't scare them away. It will attract them. That gun on you is an easy $200 street sale an hour from now, or a tool to rob someone else that can be tossed in a dumpster easy, 'cause it cost them nothing.

But aside from any tactical reason against it, I believe there are far more important political reasons why it's not a good idea, much longer ranging reasons with a stable of 'unintended consequences' attached to it. Frankly, I think it will set the Gun Rights Movement back decades. It is political powder keg waiting to blow up in our faces the first time it goes badly wrong, and statistically speaking, it will sooner or later.

Intelligent, mature students of our Republic understand that every Freedom has a boundary - limitless freedoms with no thought regarding those we share our communities with is called Anarchy. While I agree that under the recent administration, there are assaults on them to a fascist degree, historically we have had sensible limits to speech, religion and possessions. They are rules we agree to create a civilized society, and do we want to really throw those away to get something that really doesn't offer any real benefit?

Yes the 2nd Amendment does guarantee the right to bear arms, but it doesn't say 'openly and in plain view.' We on the right scream at the left all the time for Judicial Activism, for reading into the Constitution, accusing them of manipulating it to fit their needs. For example, there is no 'Right To Abortion' in it, but lefties staunchly argue it's in there somewhere. There is no 'Separation of Church and State' in the Bill of Rights or anywhere else in the Constitution, it doesn't exist; but we get red faced angry when the Loony Left says it exists when it most certainly and clearly does not.

Now, aren't we doing the same thing here? Let's read it again:

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

Where does that say openly, in a mall or movie theater, or a crowded business? Or school? It doesn't. Let's not use the tactics of liberals here. No one is taking away our right to bear arms on our person...it's still there, WE STILL HAVE THE RIGHT TO CARRY, only we are carrying those guns, sensibly, concealed and out of sight. That protects us more than anyone, and not being able to display them like we're extras in a John Ford movie is NOT an infringement of a right. It a limit on a freedom, that is a totally different legal argument.

Let's not fall into the trap the left uses, saying that if we don't get EVERYTHING we demand RIGHT NOW then we're somehow getting our rights stomped, being marginalized and those that don't agree are 'evil' and 'the enemy.' That only drives away folks from our real argument, that people have a right to own and use firearms.

Again, there are natural, sensible limits to EVERY freedom. You can't set a tire fire in your front yard and let the smoke blow over into your neighbors house, it's offensive and caustic and they'd be right to complain. Young hoodies can't blare rap music at 3am waking up the whole neighborhood, it's disturbing and unsettling. You can't practice a religion that throws puppies into volcanoes, you can't go into a theater and scream the F-bomb for 2 hours during a film, you can't practice 'self love' in the park during lunch hour.

These are reasonable limits that were put into place by our communities, which includes us, because we and our neighbors, even our gun neutral, non-pistol owning neighbors, have a right not be scared poopless or made 'freak out'-level uncomfortable for no reason. There are lines we agree to not cross because of mutual respect and for reasons of civility.

Sure, we might get the right to walk into a Tex-Mex restaurant with a strapped on .40 S&W, and thereby scaring half the patrons. But why do it to them? Aren't we trying to convince the undecided that WE are right? That what we do is also for their protection, and their rights too? How are we convincing them to join us if we cause them to blow a 30cc bladder dump in Chipotle when we walk in with an El Paso Saddlery rig hugging up a nickel plated Colt Python? Or a huge Glock 21 that, for all they know, might reach out and bite them?

Especially when we can carry the EXACT same gun in the EXACT same business, having the EXACT same freedom of self defense, and they never know it, don't wig out and no scene is caused? How did we improve the situation by carrying in open mode?

One simple untucked shirt is worth ten of millions of dollars of PR work by the NRA that they won't have to spend trying to defend an action that majority of the public we live with simply will not understand; is this really about trying to win folks over, or just getting to wear a gun in public for all to see?

In the end all that open carry is going to do is provoke the vast majority of folks neutral on guns into being frightened away from our side. They can't and won't understand why a Concealed Handgun License isn't enough. If the purpose of carrying is to protect yourself, how is doing that improved by scaring those around you that know nothing about guns? How is your carry right diminished by making yourself a walking, talking spectacle of weaponry? The fight for the 2nd Amendment should be more important to us than the desire to walk around with a customized 1911-A1 for all to see. We need to think broader here, about how our actions can affect that far more important fight.

Open Carry seems to be the gun-politics equivalent of a group of evangelical Christians trying to spread the Gospel by walking to a Starbucks and slamming a Bible down on the table of other customers and announcing "YOU ARE GOING TO HELL AND BURN IF YOU DON'T LISTEN" – saying "to the devil" with those who might be frightened away by our actions, just so we can open carry, will boomerang on us politically without question. It is the very image of a divisive act when one is not needed – no one is taking your right to carry away, you can still have a CHL.

If we really care about our message ultimately getting through, we should be careful about how we deliver it. What is most important to us, here? Just getting our way in the short, or furthering our 2nd Amendment 'gospel' by getting more folks to join the NRA and understand our point of view?

Someone said, 'It's a choice.' Well, so is farting loudly in a crowded elevator - you can, but it's rude, obnoxious and drives people away from listening to you. It may sound crude, but open carry is going to accomplish the same goal. We already have CHL laws, and they’re great, I'm glad we have them. So, do we really want to risk undoing the last 20+ years of goodwill accomplished by discreet, polite carry by wearing guns in such a fashion as to repel or scare those who could be potential future allies or brothers and sisters in the NRA?

It isn't always about getting what we want personally. It isn't always about winning or defeating those who disagree. Demanding something simply because we can and screaming down anyone who disagrees until we get what we want is EXACTLY what the left does.

How do normal, mainstream folk look at groups like Code Pink, Acorn, MoveOn.org or NARAL when they march and demand their way? They look at them like scary extremists. Do we want to get painted in the light? We will. Remember those guys that carried rifles into a coffee shop a few years ago? How many folks did they convert? How many people said "Oh I see, yeah I get it now. I'll join the NRA and buy a .45 because those guys just made that barista and his customers do a Hershey quirt in their BVD's. Yeah, that makes sense, I wanna be a part of that."

Now I know that 99.9% of the folks who will open carry are certainly NOT extremists, but are most likely patriotic, God fearing Texans who simply want to exercise a right. Ok. But in today's climate, with the media using instant info sharing to spread extreme bias and twist the truth more than a Twizzler, should we risk losing any high ground by being painted as extreme nutso batcrap crazy gunslinging wannabe's? Do we want to set ourselves up like that? We will be. I remember how the media in Texas roasted everyone who wanted a college campus carry bill for teachers, in the wake of the Virginia Tech shootings. They went crazy, and THAT bill made sense, and it lost the popular opinion of Texans everywhere after the media got done with it. Again, that was a GOOD idea. Just imagine how they’ll paint ALL gun owners after folks start carrying openly. What good can come of it?

See, right now the political landscape regarding CHL’s is cool and calm, mostly I think because the media can’t see the hundreds of thousands of guns that are carried every day in Texas. That invisibility is a huge asset and a thin shield, as thin as a shirt or windbreaker, but it might as well be the Iron Curtain because what they don’t see they don’t scream about regularly. Its outta sight and outta mind; they have no real world context of how many folks carry in Texas. The numbers are there, but without the visual confirmation of the reality of a loaded pistol before their eyes, they are simply clueless.

And they are an enemy that is far better off to us when clueless. But open carry will arm them with something we can never take back...a million pictures of "right wing thugs playing Clint Eastwood, just waiting for a chance to kill"; of course you and I know that’s garbage and BS, not true at all. But those are images we can't take back after they’re fashioned into ammo against our cause. Right now, that media narrative won’t play; it's bogus because they don't have the visual fuel to twist it into a story. But when open carry guns rigs start popping up like popcorn, they WILL have the images to misrepresent us at every possible step.

And woe to the first person who draws and fires from an open rig and kills someone, particularly if it’s a ‘on the bubble shoot’ – there will be a media feeding frenzy that will be twisted into a hell fairly close to that which George Zimmerman is still living through. Sure they were wrong about 'gunfights in the streets' with CHL... but the hidden, unseen gun made that argument quickly fade when it didn't happen. But the open gun will always BE there in plain sight, and to the majority of uninformed Texans, the shocking reminder that a gunfight "is right there, waiting to happen!" (as the media will certainly play it) won’t go away. It will be the boogeyman they use to scare neutral folks away from our side.

There are other everyday consequences, too. Businesses will be scared off in bigger numbers than ever before about letting in gun toters. In Texas, any business can opt of letting CHL holders in their store by putting a sign from Texas Penal Code Section 30.06 that says, in essence, don’t bring your CHL in here. And you can’t by law, period. Open Carry will provoke more and more businesses into getting spooked by now-visible guns and that same law which is used to ban CHL holders will be used to ban open carry, and they will go up everywhere.

Think about it, Texas CHL holders. Stores, restaurants, business that let you carry NOW, because they can’t see your piece and are ok with it as long as it’s invisible, will make a decisive choice to ban ALL guns with PC 30.06 once we start open carrying. Get used to having to leave your gun in your car EVERYWHERE, because that’s coming, along with more vehicle burglaries from crooks smart enough to know that there are more and more guns being left in cars parked in front of PC 30.06 opt-out businesses.

Not to mention more cities or counties getting complaint after complaint from spooked citizens and reacting by passing ordinances to prohibit open carry in the end anyway. I hate government like I hate cancer, and believe 90% of politicians are maggots, but when people complain in numbers to elected officials that they’re ‘scared’, government maggots act fast and their reaction is always the same…ban something. Open Carry is only setting us up for fights we don’t need.

And think of your civil liability and responsibility, how open carry may change that. Right now, in the Texas CHL classes they stress that a CHL holder is absolutely NOT bound to respond to any threat or dangerous situation. They are NOT to get involved if they don't want to, and can walk away - that CHL is designed to defend your self and you are NOT a public protector. Ok, but now with Open Carry, say you're carrying while refueling at your local Stop n' Rob, which gets hit while you’re at the pumps. The bad guy shoots a clerk and runs off. Witnesses SEE you with a gun. "Why didn't you get involved sir? Why didn't you help my client? You had a gun, you could have intervened. You're lack of willingness to step in caused my client's wife to die." Or what if the bad guy was just running off after robbing it, sees your gun and thinks you’re the police, THEN starts shooting and someone dies. Then in court it will be “Sir, the presence of your gun caused my client to be paralyzed. If you had left your gun in the car sir, can’t you say honestly that that would not have happened?” In a civil trial, you wanna risk your entire financial life in front of jury that only needs 51% convincing in their mind that you were in the wrong? Is that really worth the risk just to be able to show off your handgun?

And if you DON'T get involved at every confrontation, open carry will brand you as a coward possibly making you civilly liable if you choose NOT to act, and when you do act, it can easily brand you as a cowboy Wyatt Earp wannabe. You can't win here easily, especially in civil court- damned if you do, damned if you don’t. But with a simple untucked shirt and your CHL, you can remain invisible and tactically protect yourself and your loved ones unless you absolutely HAVE to get involved, no one will no you're armed unless you do get involved - no unintended escalation, and you can probably walk away.

Open Carry will force most every issue greatly, escalating situations needlessly because now everyone, including the baddie, will SEE a gun on your hip and that WILL change the situation dramatically. And not for the better; he will most likely think you're a cop. Do you really want to walk around having to keep up the same level of mental and situational awareness that a uniformed officer has to ALL DAY LONG expecting a gun fight at every turn, waiting for that slime bag that will inevitably try to take you out simply because you have a gun on? You don’t, trust me. It gets tiresome.

Goblins won't know open carry armed citizens from non-uniformed police, like detectives. They will assume the worst, as all humans do, that their luck is crappy and a cop just walked in on them. And you get to deal with that. Yippee. Do you really want to walk into a theater/gas station/book store/whatever and stumble into a robbery, theft or mugging with the bad guy suddenly believing he sees a cop (you)? I'll bet a million bucks that in that frikkin' Hell of a pucker factor moment, that open carry guru will be wishing to All Sweet Heaven and Mothers on Earth he had chosen to be a CONCEALED handgun carrier instead. When things go south badly, really badly, they do it in single digit seconds.

With a CHL you have more potential to stay unseen and potentially walk away. But open carry can cost you a personal attack, shots fired around you that can hit you, your family nearby or innocent citizens, a civil trial and financial ruin or maybe even a grand jury indictment for getting/not getting involved because witnesses say YOU with a gun and you can’t deny it.

And for what? What does it REALLY accomplish? In real world terms? Really, seriously? What improvement, benefit or enhancement does Open Carry vs. CHL carry really get you? Besides "It's my right and I want to" how does it really benefit the pro-gun argument? How does it improve your ability to defend yourself? How does it present the 2nd Amendment crowd and gun owners as safe, reasonable, decent normal folk like everyone else, living with everyone else and being no different than anyone else except for owning/carrying a gun?

We will be making a target of ourselves that only serves to hurt our own cause in the long run by providing a picture perfect image fit to be twisted all to Hell by those on the left and in the media who are always on the hunt to shred the truth concerning gun owners already. We are loading their ‘gun’ for them for reasons that cannot in anyway provide significant enrichment to our own gun rights cause or our right to self defense.

It is a miniscule achievement in the face of potentially drastic negatives that cannot be recovered from.

Yes I know farmers, ranchers and other rural guys would like to carry on their property or in the field and not worry about the local police when they go into town. Ok, fair enough. Here’s a compromise (and and one I really don't even like) - only allow it in rural areas and in cities with less than 50K population, make it essentially a 'rural bill'. Yes, I know that means no open carry in the larger cities in Texas, but the vast majority of Texas is rural anyway, and that means 85% would be OK to open carry.

If someone wants to open carry in Mineola, Alpine, Crockett, Zephyr or Shamrock, okay I can live with that. But do we REALLY, REALLY need to open carry in downtown Houston, Dallas, Ft Worth, San Antonio or Austin? Is walking around the Riverwalk, Kemah, Zilker Park, the West End or Fossil Rim Wildlife Center with a S&W .357 Magnum on our hip gleaming in the noonday sun really, really necessary to our personal defense or Constitutional rights? Especially when we can do it legally and more safely anyway, with a CHL?

Do we really need to make ourselves targets in the most crime-present cities of the state, as well as making ourselves a target for the leftist media that dominates those cities? What are we really gaining here?

CHL has been a resounding success in Texas, in no small part because those that don't have a CHL, don’t carry at all and may not even own guns are pretty much OK with it. They’re basically on our side by not joining the other side. To them, a hidden gun means discreet, polite and reasonable, they don’t see it, they don’t care. But a big, fat Colt .45 hanging in front of their faces in plain view will be taken as aggressive, threatening and extreme. Advocates of the 2nd Amendment and personal liberty do not need the hassle of being unnecessarily categorized in that manner, particularly when the rewards for carrying openly are infinitesimally small.

It ultimately means risking being a large tactical and political target for the return of virtually nothing except "because I can", causing potentially irreparable damage in the long run.

Just one old Irishman’s opinion…
 
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I agree on the 30-06 sign, but on the 51% the store has no choice. If 51% of their sales come from alcohol the must post the sign.

The 51 percent sign I avoid since I do not drink, and I don't want to be around others who are drinking. I would always find
a place to eat where alcohol is not served. I likewise avoid any
location where I think drugs might be being used. The only thing I use alcohol for is to clean my computer screen with.
 
When you use the "what if" game to justify your argument, you loose all credibility.

What cases, in areas that allow open carry, support your stories???

I don't think so, I've spent quite a bit of time in the Capitol in Austin during session, and 'what if' is a huge component to how laws are made. In fact, no one knows for sure what will happen any time a piece of legislation that affects so many goes active. 'What if' is simply another way of saying 'think for second about this possiblity.' That's not losing credibility, it responsibly considerng the consequences of an action.

Secondly, other states that have open carry are irrelevant to Texas, they're different situations, other laboratories in the '50 State Experiement' and what happens there is specific to 'there.' Massachusetts has gay marriage, bu that doesn't mean we want it in Texas. Colorado has legalized hydroponic marijuana for sale, so what. It's stupid and Texas doesn't need it here.

Texas has had an economic/population explosion that is only getting bigger every day; the bigger cities in Texas are being inundated with millions of folks from the west coast, east coast, midwest and rust belt. This is not the good ol' boy Texas from the 50's anymore, there are millions of non-Texas people here now that do not and will not accept open carry, it will scare them, they will complain and they will litigate in a millisecond if something goes wrong. And frankly the media in Texas is no better than in New York - uber leftist.

So put all togther, and the question again is, why risk harm to legitimate CHL carry when there is zero benefit to open carry? Especially in the most crowded left leaning cities bulging at the seams with millions of new non-native Texas residents. What is the benefit?

Really, what advantage does open carry give you that concealed does not? That is the heart of the issue, the question that should be answered before it's passed - what does open carry provide you that you can't get with a CHL?

All I see is unecessary physical and civil risk to those carrying openly, to those around them and political risk to gun owners and the 2nd Amendment cause.

And for what advantage? There's nothing it gives you that you don't already have with a CHL. It accomplishes nothing in urban settings except the right to play John Wayne while walking down the middle of a downtown street in Dallas. And that's a poor reason to risk a good program already in place.
 
For Texas Raider. Great posts and in the first one--all I really "see" is wrong is the "modernization in ideas" of the 2nd Amendment in what one should or should not do. That said--I cant "really" argue with anything you said in your well thought out and experienced posts.

Meaning no offense of course and is only my opinion. Take care Sir-and--howdy. Tipping my hat to you for your service and wisdom.
 
Texas and Florida have the same type of law. Unfortunately if someone spots your gun, even by accident, you can be charged with brandishing. Am "open carry" provision would eliminate that. It's not so much to promote open carry as it is to keep people carrying concealed from getting jammed up.

No that is not true. In Texas it is the "Intentional displaying
of the handgun. We have no brandishing law, but our law is
the intentional display of the handgun to cause alarm. Not
being an owner of a long gun laws on those do not directly impact me.
I think these two guys have damaged their cause more than they helped it. In
the process though the restaurant has lost any future business from me.
So there are no winners, the open carry guys did not gain any support,
the restaurant loses business, and gangbangers and criminals have a new
happy hunting ground. No winners but the bad guys.
 
My opinion and it is mine.
Some folks do not wish to pay for a concealed carry permit. Some can not afford to. Some do not wish to be on the list.
This is up to them.

I carried openly in the 70s in NC and VA.
Not knowing each counties laws was a concern.
I never had a problem.
I don't like being in the spotlight or being #1 as a target though.
Once in NC my buddy and I just finished shooting at the LGS. Had side arms holstered in the shop.
Four shady characters pulled up in front and got out of the car.
Doors were left open.
They walked in saw us our holstered guns. Then exited ASAP.
I am happy it ended that way.
I still prefer concealed. Another reason being the damage done to my grips going in and out of a car.
 
For Texas Raider. Great posts and in the first one--all I really "see" is wrong is the "modernization in ideas" of the 2nd Amendment in what one should or should not do. That said--I cant "really" argue with anything you said in your well thought out and experienced posts.

Meaning no offense of course and is only my opinion. Take care Sir-and--howdy. Tipping my hat to you for your service and wisdom.

None taken, and I hope I didn't come across as offending pro open carry folk - sometimes passion can come off a bit strong. But the reason I do feel so strongly about it is because we've built up a great thing here in Texas with CHL, and in many ways we are one of the last bastions of firearms freedom in the US. Texas is notoriously gun friendly, not taking anything from Arizona, South Carolina or any other red state, but we are ground zero for a lot of gun politics. Which is why I get a bit frosted in my flakes about open carry. It has the potential to back fire easily in image and practice, with no offer of positive return of any substantial nature.

I just wanna protect what we have and not dent it over a "fools gold" idea.
 
I think the Open Carry Texas fiasco with Chipotle is going to hurt the chances for open carry for quite a while. All you need is for the antis to display the photos of those dorks, and it's a goner for sure.
 
Fantasy, even if that's what they use in Austin, isn't reality.
Until FACTS are shown, I will continue to disbelieve the nonsensical assertion that open carry attracts attack. That is nonsense, and the vast majority of open carry states proves it. That is what the experiment of states individual lawmaking is for!

And I will express sympathy to anyone who "has spent a lot of time in the Capitol in Austin during session". That in no way changes the FACTS regarding open carry, but only highlights the deleterious results of contact with the ignorant and deceptive. (Bless their hearts)
 
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And another thing:
Why is it that anti gun crowd always falls back on the characterization of 2nd Amendment supporters as "John Wayne" types? Ever notice that?
Maybe we'd make them happier as "Alec Baldwin" types.
The wordy wolves in sheeps clothing paint a mocking picture but avoid fact.
Beware the "visible gun free zone" advocates, they're one law away from a gun free state.

"Bold colors, no pale pastels", remember?

And incidentally, the Constitution DOES NOT say what we CAN do, but what the government cannot infringe upon.
 
It really cracks me up that some one who thinks they are pro gun believes that the framers meant your can bear arms as long as no one sees it. About like thinking it means you can bear arms as long as you have a difficult to obtain permit and keep it inside your house.

The dill wads that carried in the restaurant have little to do with it as they were already with in the law by caring long guns. I suppose the anti open carry guys want to have the law include long guns too. LOL

You shouldn't even need a permit to open carry. Don't here and zero issues.
 
PS. Sorry to say but, plenty of dummies have concealed carry permits. The 2 idiots that went to the restaurant more than likely qualify. If we allow intelligence testing it wouldn't be long before only Stephen Hawkins could carry. I would rather see that an idiot has a gun than not know he has one.

What I really want to know is how everyone in Bigger is better Texas carries their 6" + 8 3/8" N frames and the like when they want to take them somewhere. I doubt in ankle holsters, some may have big enough guts for inside the belt carry. LOL. What about the famous BBQ guns? Leos only? Special class of citizen thing?
 
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It's also funny how those who claim they're 'pro-2nd Amendment' will hurl themselves headlong into any possible facet of firearms carry as long as it suits their own selfish personal agenda, despite whatever ultimate damage that such pursuit might inflict upon the very 'cause' they claim to support.

"The wordy wolves in sheeps clothing paint a mocking picture but avoid fact."

Really? I dissected many possibilities of open carry as it applies to this state. What fact did I ignore? That because it involves a gun and Texas it automatically shouldn't be approved just "because"? That it looks embarrassingly silly to play cowboy in 2014? That is serves no purpose tactically, politically or in response to common civility? No, I covered those. That other states have done it and therefore we should to? If you believed that line of logic, you'd be supporting gay marriage, abortion on demand and legalizing pot and selling it out of 7-11's. But no, you're cherry picking one issue that suits your agenda. I covered that, too.

"Why is it that anti gun crowd always falls back on the characterization of 2nd Amendment supporters as John Wayne types? Ever notice that?"

FIist off, you're the one that wants to dress up and look like a modern day cowboy (i.e. John Wayne) by wearing a handgun on your hip on public - if you can't handle that reference on a gun forum, how in the heck are you going to handle it when you get called that to you in your face in the real world? If you don't like being called a cartoon don't act like one.

Secondly, I've been polite, accommodating and have purposely avoided any pejoratives aimed at fellow posters here. But frankly, Old TexMex, you're thinking is the very thing wrong with supporters of the 2nd Amendment. You have engaged in the very tactic that gun control nuts do...when you can't address the substance of another opinion, you attack and belittle. That reveals a lack of ability to cogently discuss an issue and only harms the support of that issue. You want to disagree, fine. But accusing someone of being a liberal plant or 'gun control' spy on this forum only reveals your shocking lack of ability to have a meaningful discussion.

Has it ever occurred to you in your paranoia that there are some folks, such as me, who very strongly support the 2nd Amendment, and who own many firearms, and who are members of the NRA, and have carried in public for years, but JUST MIGHT actually not share your knee jerk opinions? Who might actually think that a greater good can be served by NOT getting your way on every single, solitary issue that has any possible iota of relevance to firearms?

Did it ever dawn on you that maybe, just maybe, there are folks who are just as passionate about guns as you, but don't share your desire to flippantly display a weapon in public when there is no arguably beneficial or intelligent reason to do so?

Or did it occur to you that maybe the very reason I'm so opposed to open carry while vigorously supporting concealed carry is the exact opposite of your childish accusation of "gun controller!"? That my reason for opposing open carry is that I want to PROTECT our right to carry and self defend?

And obviously since I don't want to strap on a .44 mag and walk through a Furr's buffet getting my rocks off scaring any 'idiot' that doesn't agree with my viewpoint on guns, well Hell, then I must be Chuck Shumer's love child, mustn't I? And unless I preen around all day wearing all the currently "required" Gadsden flag, Come and Take It cannon and Molon Labe kitsch on multiple t-shirts, caps and vests to show "proof" of my patriotic 2nd Amendment allegiance, well then I must OBVIOUSLY be a commie mole planted to sow seeds of distrust and dissention.

You know what's really sad? That folks like you are so reactionary and defensive about gun control that you behave like gun control advocates, becoming exactly like that which you state you hate - extremists that attack differing opinions by ugly insinuations and character attacks.

A discussion on the merits of open carry should be able to be had without ad hoc accusations of 'you disagree! you're the enemy!' like some 3rd grade playground shoving match.

You want open carry? Call your locally elected maggot politician and tell him to support it. Fine. If it passes, it passes. I still think it serves no purpose and in the end will only hurt the cause and create attention where it is not needed and a need to defend something where no fight had to be picked.

But accusing anyone who disagrees of being a closet enemy, and howling that "my right to open carry is in the 2nd Amendment and if you disagree you're a gun control Nazi" only makes one look like those fools in the '70's that screamed for the right to purchase Teflon coated bullets as a "God given right!" - how does this play to those who are undecided? That kind of over-reactionary demagoguery makes every gun owner look like a hostile, buck toothed, irrationally angry hayseed rube and only hurts the cause of gun ownership.

It's the 2014 version of screaming 'Witch!' at an opponent hoping to get them dunked and drowned just to shut them up. Hardly a stroke of intellectual brilliance.

But if all I've said means nothing, then blow it off as eyewash and answer me this one question, the one that has not been answered yet:

What, exactly, does open carry do for you that concealed carry does not? What advantage does it give the carrier, as opposed to wearing the same gun, in the same place in the same legal way except only covered by a thin veneer of fabric? What advantage does it offer?
 
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What I really want to know is how everyone in Bigger is better Texas carries their 6" + 8 3/8" N frames and the like when they want to take them somewhere. I doubt in ankle holsters, some may have big enough guts for inside the belt carry. LOL. What about the famous BBQ guns? Leos only? Special class of citizen thing?

A real Texan has no need to try to swing his manhood around and slap others in the face with it, yelling about Texas. A real Texan knows what he has and stays classy about it. The loud mouth "TEXAS IS BIGGER AND BETTER!" crowd are an embarrassment to this state, and probably have a diminutive endowment to match their brains.

I simply cannot imagine Sam Houston or Stephen F. Austin walking around with a "F' YALL, I'M FROM TEXAS!" shirt on, or guzzling Bud Lite from Dixie cups while tearing around town in a jacked up pickup with exhaust cutouts yelling 'Yee Haw' at 3am.

That is not a real Texan. That is an idiot, and unfortunately they're not indigenous to one state.

As far as the big BBQ guns? I guess you have to open carry those...haven't seen a Summer Special yet they'd fit in ;)
 
None taken, and I hope I didn't come across as offending pro open carry folk - sometimes passion can come off a bit strong. But the reason I do feel so strongly about it is because we've built up a great thing here in Texas with CHL, and in many ways we are one of the last bastions of firearms freedom in the US. Texas is notoriously gun friendly, not taking anything from Arizona, South Carolina or any other red state, but we are ground zero for a lot of gun politics. Which is why I get a bit frosted in my flakes about open carry. It has the potential to back fire easily in image and practice, with no offer of positive return of any substantial nature.

I just wanna protect what we have and not dent it over a "fools gold" idea.

You didnt and I dont offend easily. :-))
 
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