I am going to agree with the OP. I like the idea of the single action shot for the very reason given by the OP. And yes, I understand that most times it will be a belly gun situation. However, in a situation described above and the the time allows it, I would prefer single action. Besides that, why does my 36 and 64 "belly guns" come with SA/DA capability.
"You'll never need single-action in self defense..." is that true?
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forrestinmathews
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Double action can be trained just accurate out to fifty yards. The disturbance of the firing grip to cock the gun makes it a bit slower to fire accurately in the DA/SA revolvers.
Since everyone else has pirated the thread, I love my Ruger single actions and carry them often for self defense. Why not? If you can hit well with them it's going to be as easy to explain as any other shooting. They point like a dream and they give me a warm fuzzy feeling even though they don't carry two dozen rounds onboard. I like the nostalgia of it.
As far as using a laser to extend your range...if you can hold steady enough to keep the dot on target, I am sure you can do the same with the sights...
Since everyone else has pirated the thread, I love my Ruger single actions and carry them often for self defense. Why not? If you can hit well with them it's going to be as easy to explain as any other shooting. They point like a dream and they give me a warm fuzzy feeling even though they don't carry two dozen rounds onboard. I like the nostalgia of it.
As far as using a laser to extend your range...if you can hold steady enough to keep the dot on target, I am sure you can do the same with the sights...
If you can remain dead calm during an active shooter scenario. Have the ability to cock the hammer, line up the shot and deliberately pull the trigger then more power to ya.
Me personally, I practice double action a lot and I feel that I've achieved a level of accuracy that makes me feel comfortable with a dao 442.
Again, this is just me personally. Sometimes at the range, if I cock back the hammer on a revolver, I'll fire it unintentionally just laying my finger on the trigger. During an active shooter scenario with adrenaline pumpin'?
On the other hand, I've read a story of an active shooting situation at a McDonalds with a hostage. A concealed carrier was able to put a laser light on the shooters behind and break his pelvis with a well placed shot, ending the danger. The shot was made with a J frame snubby shooting it single action.
Me personally, I practice double action a lot and I feel that I've achieved a level of accuracy that makes me feel comfortable with a dao 442.
Again, this is just me personally. Sometimes at the range, if I cock back the hammer on a revolver, I'll fire it unintentionally just laying my finger on the trigger. During an active shooter scenario with adrenaline pumpin'?
On the other hand, I've read a story of an active shooting situation at a McDonalds with a hostage. A concealed carrier was able to put a laser light on the shooters behind and break his pelvis with a well placed shot, ending the danger. The shot was made with a J frame snubby shooting it single action.
Oh and Welcome from the panhandle of West Virginia.
I generally consider single action vs. double action with a revolver as defensive vs. offensive modes. I do most of my shooting double action however I do think that ignoring the single action option assumes that we will never need to make an offensive shot. Defense of a third person (loved one for example) may dictate that we assume a more offensive mindset. At extended distances the single action may allow more precision. Ever hear of the "Luby's shooting down here in Texas? That's a pretty big open space and being able to shut down the criminal across the room would be pretty, uh... useful. Not every self defense shooting is against the sudden mugger.
For the reasons above I feel that the 638/649 are the most useful of the J-frames. Snag free - small/light enough for anytime carry - and the most versatile trigger system ever created by man. Always thought a revolvers heavy trigger for stress management COUPLED with a selective light trigger for precision work made this system the very best of any out there.
I think you made an excellent choice!
For the reasons above I feel that the 638/649 are the most useful of the J-frames. Snag free - small/light enough for anytime carry - and the most versatile trigger system ever created by man. Always thought a revolvers heavy trigger for stress management COUPLED with a selective light trigger for precision work made this system the very best of any out there.
I think you made an excellent choice!
Arik
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Generally not a good idea to do SA. In the citations you describe. ..when you'll be excited and adrenaline is pumping by putting it into SA you make the trigger much more sensitive and in all that excitement it would be very easy to accidentally fire when you didn't intend to. Don't forget that as a civilian you are responsible for where your bullets go and you might do more harm than good. The ideal thing is to practice practice practice in DA mode
I think having the option isn't a bad thing if you train with it. There have been well documented cases of cops/CCW users who have accidentally fired a shot when they cocked the gun in single action mode. I would only cock the gun if I knew I had to take a precision shot.
I personally shoot most of my revolvers double action, so I am pretty good in that mode. My two defensive revolvers, my EDC CCW 642-1 and my 64-6 nightstand guns both are DAO, so I naturally train with that most often and can honestly say I don't see much group size improvement when using single action on my Ruger GP100.
It's all about training. A single action can get you in trouble in a self defense situation, but in other situations with proper training it can be helpful. I just practice so much with DAO revolver shooting that for me it doesn't make much difference, so a DAO defensive revolver is natural to me and doesn't seem less effective at all vs. a DA/SA gun.
JMHO.
YMMV.
I personally shoot most of my revolvers double action, so I am pretty good in that mode. My two defensive revolvers, my EDC CCW 642-1 and my 64-6 nightstand guns both are DAO, so I naturally train with that most often and can honestly say I don't see much group size improvement when using single action on my Ruger GP100.
It's all about training. A single action can get you in trouble in a self defense situation, but in other situations with proper training it can be helpful. I just practice so much with DAO revolver shooting that for me it doesn't make much difference, so a DAO defensive revolver is natural to me and doesn't seem less effective at all vs. a DA/SA gun.
JMHO.
YMMV.
Tough call
Even with autoloaders, police departments seem to prefer double action only or DAO. In a felonious emergency, you will do on the street what you have been trained to do in practice, or what you have been allowed to do or have gotten away with in training.
During revolver days, the police had the additional problem, though uncommon, of an officer cocking his weapon, then having it accidentally discharge into the back of a compliant detainee. Attorney's jumped on this and initiated lawsuits which, in effect, tried to turn justifiable shootings into accidental ones by claiming the officer had cocked his gun. The last phase of police revolver use often involved modified revolvers firing DAO.
The tactical scenario you paint is but one of many that can occur.
Attempting a head shot on a non-stationary target is quite difficult. Aside from rifle equipped police sharpshooters, they train for center-mass shooting.
Even with autoloaders, police departments seem to prefer double action only or DAO. In a felonious emergency, you will do on the street what you have been trained to do in practice, or what you have been allowed to do or have gotten away with in training.
During revolver days, the police had the additional problem, though uncommon, of an officer cocking his weapon, then having it accidentally discharge into the back of a compliant detainee. Attorney's jumped on this and initiated lawsuits which, in effect, tried to turn justifiable shootings into accidental ones by claiming the officer had cocked his gun. The last phase of police revolver use often involved modified revolvers firing DAO.
The tactical scenario you paint is but one of many that can occur.
Attempting a head shot on a non-stationary target is quite difficult. Aside from rifle equipped police sharpshooters, they train for center-mass shooting.
ChattanoogaPhil
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While some triggers are obviously easier to master than others, Self Defense accuracy is a product of practice more than trigger type.
I'm surprised no one has addressed this yet but people don't just "snap" and whip out a gun and start shooting. I'm not aware of any mass shooting event that wasn't (at least to some extent) planned out, usually far in advance.
The myth that people just "snap and start shooting" is a lie that the antis perpetuate in an attempt to restrict our freedoms and it bothers me to see gun owners buying into it.
If I'm telling you something you already know my apologies.
A double action trigger performs 2 actions, cocking and releasing the hammer while a single action merely releases.
I certainly agree with this. I also note that I regularly use quite a few different guns, as many of us do. This usually means that at any given unscheduled moment, the gun my life might depend on may not be the last gun I triggered. For me, this means that my 15-2 fired DA will be the most dependable and safest firearm, with several other S&W revolvers close behind. With a few days notice and some practice, I could change this to 1911 or some other self-loader, but then I probably wouldn't be playing with all the other guns so much, or at least would finish off by practicing a bit with the 1911.
Harkrader
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I really thought this was going to be in another direction, so here is my 2C for that:
Our trainer was a meeean man. He made us do stuff that showed our weaknesses like pimples on our noses. In one scenario he put our handgun, usually a Beretta 92 or Sig 228, under a cloth or hat. There would be at LEAST three targets to shoot after retrieving it and diving behind cover. Heh. Except that when we ripped off the cloth, there was the gun and a box of cartridges, NO MAGAZINE! That also means after each shot the slide did not lock back. Like I said, meeean. Just mean.
It might have been "fun" to do that with either a Colt Detective Special and S&W Chief Special, just to see who knew which way the cylinder turned. Thankfully he didn't do that. I looked bad enough as it was.
BUT, the OP means cocking a DA revolver for each shot. If he makes that work, no problem. I've seen Cowboy Action Shooters fire their Colts and Rugers so fast they sounded like semi-autos. AND, they hit their targets.
For me, the Sigs and Berettas and the like were "point and shoot." Worked the same way every time. We carried the Berettas with safety off, using it mostly as a de-cocker or "administrative safety." Our trainer believed that the extra move needed to swipe off the safety was just that much more to train to do. It would be different, of course, for uniformed officers carrying their guns in plain view.
But, to revolvers. Handed a Model 28 (I think - it was a long time ago) and told to hit a gourd at 20 meters with the first shot, I found I had to relearn how to work the trigger, compared to the semi-autos. The long pull made me greatly tug the gun off target. MY failing, to be sure. Sooo, I wanted to cock the hammer for each shot.
And then I watched Walt Rauch shoot a J-frame double action, center punching the target shooting from the hip out to 7 or 8 meters. Then shooting double action one-hand out to 15+ meters for head shots, holding the gun at eye-level, though I was not sure he actually aimed with the sights. When it got to 25 meters he held with two hands and stitched up the zipper to the chin. That was a 2" gun!
Some years before, I found myself holding a S&W 25/.45-Colt, facing an agitated assembly desirous of deterring us from leaving a hotel. Single-action would have foolish, at least for me, if for no other reason than that *I* was a tad "agitated."
When I next had the opportunity to train with a revolver I restricted myself to double-action and have ever since.
One consideration for a self-defense purpose is that you may be grappling with one or more attackers. A LOOONG time ago, my best friend and I were attacked by six thugs on the streets of gun-free Chicago. I plead guilty to not being sufficiently alert to the threat, which allowed them to come into arm's reach. They were then on us in a flash. IF I had been carrying a revolver, one-hand, double-action would have been the only way to respond.
All that babble looks more like 4 Cents.
Our trainer was a meeean man. He made us do stuff that showed our weaknesses like pimples on our noses. In one scenario he put our handgun, usually a Beretta 92 or Sig 228, under a cloth or hat. There would be at LEAST three targets to shoot after retrieving it and diving behind cover. Heh. Except that when we ripped off the cloth, there was the gun and a box of cartridges, NO MAGAZINE! That also means after each shot the slide did not lock back. Like I said, meeean. Just mean.
It might have been "fun" to do that with either a Colt Detective Special and S&W Chief Special, just to see who knew which way the cylinder turned. Thankfully he didn't do that. I looked bad enough as it was.
BUT, the OP means cocking a DA revolver for each shot. If he makes that work, no problem. I've seen Cowboy Action Shooters fire their Colts and Rugers so fast they sounded like semi-autos. AND, they hit their targets.
For me, the Sigs and Berettas and the like were "point and shoot." Worked the same way every time. We carried the Berettas with safety off, using it mostly as a de-cocker or "administrative safety." Our trainer believed that the extra move needed to swipe off the safety was just that much more to train to do. It would be different, of course, for uniformed officers carrying their guns in plain view.
But, to revolvers. Handed a Model 28 (I think - it was a long time ago) and told to hit a gourd at 20 meters with the first shot, I found I had to relearn how to work the trigger, compared to the semi-autos. The long pull made me greatly tug the gun off target. MY failing, to be sure. Sooo, I wanted to cock the hammer for each shot.
And then I watched Walt Rauch shoot a J-frame double action, center punching the target shooting from the hip out to 7 or 8 meters. Then shooting double action one-hand out to 15+ meters for head shots, holding the gun at eye-level, though I was not sure he actually aimed with the sights. When it got to 25 meters he held with two hands and stitched up the zipper to the chin. That was a 2" gun!
Some years before, I found myself holding a S&W 25/.45-Colt, facing an agitated assembly desirous of deterring us from leaving a hotel. Single-action would have foolish, at least for me, if for no other reason than that *I* was a tad "agitated."
When I next had the opportunity to train with a revolver I restricted myself to double-action and have ever since.
One consideration for a self-defense purpose is that you may be grappling with one or more attackers. A LOOONG time ago, my best friend and I were attacked by six thugs on the streets of gun-free Chicago. I plead guilty to not being sufficiently alert to the threat, which allowed them to come into arm's reach. They were then on us in a flash. IF I had been carrying a revolver, one-hand, double-action would have been the only way to respond.
All that babble looks more like 4 Cents.
Congratulations on your purchase! I carry a 638 also. I practice a lot, but always double-action. My reasoning for getting the 638 over the 642 was that I wanted the option of single action for coyotes. My thinking is that I'd have a little more time to prepare for a coyote encounter than a bad human encounter. With practice, these guns can be pretty accurate.
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The folks demonstrating on utube aren't in a real, life or death situation with lives and all their earthly posessions on the line. Secondly, when armed with a handgun-snubby .38s in particular-the head is an extremely poor target due to the bone structure.
I'll strongly suggest you go to Evan Marshalls website (stoppingpower.net) and read his piece on The Dangers of Intervention. Then print it out and read it about once per month.
The highest level of skill at arms is becoming aware of the situation before it fully develops and being elsewhere should violence erupts.
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The chances of needed a self-defense handgun at a distance of more than 3 yards is small. The chances of needing it at more than 7 yards is very small. The chances of needing on at more than 15 yards is excruciatingly small. Those chances are, however, not zero. You should avoid saying NEVER. Its a good bet, it isn't a sure bet.
Thanks all for the input.
This may be slightly off topic but it's closely tied to the Single Action discussion.
I'm referring to situations where there's an active shooter and you're already in the midst of it.
I sincerely think some people take the "self" part of "self-defense" a little too literally. I'm not talking about hearing gunshots and running towards it. But if it's an active shooting within my immediate vicinity, and innocents are getting killed, and police are minutes off... I have a moral duty to defend both myself as presumably the shooter's next target, as well as my fellow neighbors-- not try to get away or hide and let more people die.
Every time I hear the details of a mass shooting incident, I think man, if someone had had a gun and was courageous and skilled enough to use it, 10 deaths would have been reduced to a few, or so on.
"Heroism" or the "Cowboy complex" is denounced a lot of the time, and while I agree to a point, I figure the world could use a few more selfless, brave armed citizens. And no disrespect to any here, but I believe the self-preservation-above-all-else mindset kills a heck of a lot more people than that of people who value the lives of others above their own.
The single action accidental discharge comments are things I hadn't considered however-- good points.
This may be slightly off topic but it's closely tied to the Single Action discussion.
I'm referring to situations where there's an active shooter and you're already in the midst of it.
I sincerely think some people take the "self" part of "self-defense" a little too literally. I'm not talking about hearing gunshots and running towards it. But if it's an active shooting within my immediate vicinity, and innocents are getting killed, and police are minutes off... I have a moral duty to defend both myself as presumably the shooter's next target, as well as my fellow neighbors-- not try to get away or hide and let more people die.
Every time I hear the details of a mass shooting incident, I think man, if someone had had a gun and was courageous and skilled enough to use it, 10 deaths would have been reduced to a few, or so on.
"Heroism" or the "Cowboy complex" is denounced a lot of the time, and while I agree to a point, I figure the world could use a few more selfless, brave armed citizens. And no disrespect to any here, but I believe the self-preservation-above-all-else mindset kills a heck of a lot more people than that of people who value the lives of others above their own.
The single action accidental discharge comments are things I hadn't considered however-- good points.
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F75gunslinger
Member
I would say it's more than just "technically". A double action trigger, by definition, has the ability to cock the hammer back AND release it to fire the weapon. A single action trigger only has the ability to drop the hammer. It has to be cocked manually for the first shot. A 1911 has a very crisp, relatively light trigger pull, as opposed to the DA pull of a revolver.
As for the OP's question..i also think you're over thinking the issue. If you train and are proficient with whatever you carry, the outcome should be the same.
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Have you read about the folks who have demonstrated that selflessness, failed to check for additional bad folks, and died before they got off a shot? A nice bronze memorial on the PD wall and a news story isn't going to raise your kids, comfort your wife etc.
If you recall the attack on the mall in Kenya, there were several SAS folks on site. They got their families out and went back in to extract others. Don't know if they were armed, but they were professionals and did what they could. Recall if you will Gen. Patton's pithy comment about it not being our troops job to die for their country. It's to make someone else die for theirs.
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