"You'll never need single-action in self defense..." is that true?

[Absalom]

No criticism implied, but everyone here, including the OP, seems a bit too stuck on envisioning a defensive shooting like the finale of a Sam Peckinpah movie with bullets flying every which way. I have fired my CCW gun twice "for real" in 25 years of legal carry; both times at animals, once at a probably rabid coyote in camp (gun: a Mod. 19) and once at a rattlesnake (gun: a Model 649). In both cases I terminated the threat with a carefully aimed SA shot. Could I have hit with DA? Probably. But the SA definitely made it surer. So if you can have the SA option with no penalty like on the 649, which is just as snag-free as the DA-only model, why do without it voluntarily?

 

[brian9000]

Have you read about the folks who have demonstrated that selflessness, failed to check for additional bad folks, and died before they got off a shot? A nice bronze memorial on the PD wall and a news story isn't going to raise your kids, comfort your wife

No sir, I havent heard of that. The majority of what I hear of mass shooting events in the national news is unarmed, scared people running like animals and gething shot like the same, by an uninterrupted gunman.


Also to the next poster, i understand your point. To be honest, I would expect bullets to be flying in that situation. I.e. an active shooting.

In a different situation where I draw first against one or two... not so much... hopefully.

 

[deadear dan]

Do not go there. Read what Massad Ayoob has to say regarding using a revolver in self defense. Especially since you now identified yourself as buying this pistol for the purpose of "maybe" having to use it single action. You will be hung in court, not to mention being a high risk for an accidental discharge and possibly injuring or killing someone who should not have been shot.

 

[BAM-BAM]

Your original post talks about using single action for a head shot at 10-15 yards in a crowded environment . That head will not be a static target........ it will be bobbing, weaving and moving. Others in the room will be running, hiding ..... whatever it takes to get away......

Good luck my friend...... if you miss with that first shot ...you will become the primary target; possibly surrounded by your family.....and if you miss and hit someone else.... you will be risking everything you own; and maybe living with the death of an innocent person you thought you were helping...... who may have not been targeted by your gunman.

Yes we do have a moral obligation to our fellow man.......you are new here(your first post) but if you ever try to play-out what you described...... I hope and pray to god you are as good with that gun as you seem to think you are.!!!!

What would I do ........ I don't know (37 years of concealed carry)..... first I would protect my family; then make sure I will be going home........ and then.... depends on the facts on the ground.......life's not a movie!

My druthers; is that someone else in the room is the hero; shoots the gunman in the back of the head from 2 feet away!!!! And everyone goes home!!!

 

[Double-O-Dave]

Hi Brian9000:

Welcome to the Forum. My Model 642-1 used to be my EDC (Every Day Carry), until I switched to my present day EDC - a Model 38-0 and a Model 638-1. I deliberately switched to the Humpback design because of the availability of a SA shot. Before my hip started giving me problems, I used to walk my dogs a couple of miles each day. One night, a large, uncollared mutt was trying to cross the street to get at us. Thankfully, a steady stream of traffic prevented his doing so, and me and the dogs beat feet out of there. At the time, I had the Model 642, and I would have hated to make that shot using that pistol (DAO). I think the Humpbacks give you the best of both worlds, though they are ugly little buggers.

Regards,

Dave

 

[brian9000]

Do not go there. Read what Massad Ayoob has to say regarding using a revolver in self defense. Especially since you now identified yourself as buying this pistol for the purpose of "maybe" having to use it single action. You will be hung in court, not to mention being a high risk for an accidental discharge and possibly injuring or killing someone who should not have been shot.

Hung in court for using single action on an active shooter? One on one or vs an intruder, maybe, but doubtful where there are already several bodies on the floor.

And that leads to the next question... who's going to be watching my hands in enough detail to be able to say I shot it single action? I certainly wouldn't volunteer that information off hand. Or at all.

 

[BAM-BAM]

Hung in court for using single action on an active shooter? One on one or vs an intruder, maybe, but doubtful where there are already several bodies on the floor.

And that leads to the next question... who's going to be watching my hands in enough detail to be able to say I shot it single action? I certainly wouldn't volunteer that information off hand. Or at all.

In all likelihood you will be detained and questioned..... are you going to lie the police..... when they ask you to describe in detail what happened... a lot of statements will be taken..... including the person standing next to you ....... and what about security cameras?


I would advise you to Lawyer up no matter the circumstances...... if only for the upcoming civil action!

 

[brian9000]

I would say I drew my firearm and used it in defense to stop the killings. Honestly if there are dead bodies on the floor already, it probably won't make a difference.

I am curious about your opinion in a trapped active shooter situation w/ the exit blocked. No we can't know the details but can mentally prepare. So fat it seems like you think it'd better to say "I don't know what I'd do," and leave it there. Yes, the shooter might be moving, but will likely be moving more slowly if he has people trapped. I've never seen video footage of one ballroom dancing and bobbing his head around, lol. If people are being shot like fish in a barrel with yourself presumably next, with bodies on the floor, and you want either an ideal shot or no shot at all due to liability reasons, then more power to you but I wouldn't want you there with me. You might trample me on your way out the door.

 

[Bocephus]

Single vs Double

A lot of great opinions. I practice both SA and DA but my absolute favorite is SA with my revolvers. To me the secret is cocking the revolver with your LEFT thumb (if you are right handed). This is the way Cowboy shooters learn to shoot SA and they can do it FAST (try 10 shots from two SA revolvers in 4 seconds and hit the targets). As previously mentioned the secret is practice.

 

[BAM-BAM]

I would say I drew my firearm and used it in defense to stop the killings. Honestly if there are dead bodies on the floor already, it probably won't make a difference.

I am curious about your opinion in a trapped active shooter situation w/ the exit blocked. No we can't know the details but can mentally prepare. So fat it seems like you think it'd better to say "I don't know what I'd do," and leave it there. Yes, the shooter might be moving, but will likely be moving more slowly if he has people trapped. I've never seen video footage of one ballroom dancing and bobbing his head around, lol. If people are being shot like fish in a barrel with yourself presumably next, with bodies on the floor, and you want either an ideal shot or no shot at all due to liability reasons, then more power to you but I wouldn't want you there with me. You might trample me on your way out the door.

Your post is a long way from taking a 10-15 yd shot across a crowded active room. No one will be "ballroom dancing".... what makes you think he will be moving slowly....not checking under tables if he's looking for someone.... that no one will walk/run into your line of fire as you pull the trigger.........

If I or my family is "next" ..... he's dead

My qualification scores shooting a 3" 65 a contact distance to 25 yds have always been 95% or better firing double action..... for all you know my decision may be to close on the gunman (who's not shooting in my direction)(you do know the 21 ft rule? right.....to paraphrase; a man with a knife can close approximately 21 ft in the time it takes to draw a weapon) to clear my line of fire and increase my ability to put 2 in the chest and one in the head.

From your last post..... I wouldn't want you anywhere near me with a gun!


A hero complex ( which is how I read your last few posts: I shot a bad guy I'm a hero..... I will ride off into the sunset no questions asked) is likely to get someone killed and I don't want that someone to be me.

By the way we tend to be more civil around here....... you raised a topic asked for our opinions and thoughts....I took the time to give you mine in a civil tone.... and pointed out issues and risks you will/may face..... I do hope you are good with that gun......I don't know.

 

[BAM-BAM]

To other members of the Forum....... I apologize for my rant in my last post....... I did not take well to being called a coward.

Again sorry for the rant.

 

[Louchia]

I think the S&W J frame is a great choice for CC. I carry a 442.
I believe there a couple things that must be considered for a carry.
It must be comfortable and concealable or you will not carry regularly.
Also 10-15 yards is a long way off and you may have trouble convincing anyone that it was a true SD situation.
Also you must be accurate and confident in the use with the gun you choose.
Also, I believe it is important to be able to get at least a second shot off quickly and with the use of only one hand being that most SD situations are at approx. 10 FT or less.
A J frame has a 10 lb. +/- trigger. If that is too tight, perhaps you should consider a semiauto.
This is just MHO and many disagree with some of this.
Practice, practice, practice.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Welcome brian9000 .

Yes , the M38 family are fine. J frames. Be aware of debris getting into the slot , but pocket guns should be carried in a pocket holster instead of loose anyway. Yes , the outlined initial scenario is rare , but so is drowning in water that averages one inch deep , etc .

I will relate to the subject in a broader context : * It is a good and desirable thing for a carry gun to be able to make reasonably precise hits out to a reasonable distance * . That's might be vague , but *to me* head shots @25yd with a "normal" gun , and 15yd with "limited duty" gun , YMMV .

That said ; on a gun with decent DA pull AND decent SA trigger , I shoot at least as well with DA . Likewise for guns with medicore DA and medocre SA . Hypothetically if a gun were to have a terriable DA combined with a good SA , thumbing back the hammer would help , but I wouldn't volentarily carry somthing like that.

J frames generally , and M38 variants specifically are fine , versatile guns that do what they do. That said , people with a strong interest specifically in making precise shots at a distance would want to balance their personal calculus a little farther in another direction. Ie somthing a little larger, and dress around that. Using as example my continuing fetish for 2in K frames. Carried at belt level , the 2in K with boot grips or a grip adapter will conceal about as well as a J frame with oversized grips , but the K will be better at eqsily making long range hits by order of magnatude. ( Bottomfeeder fans substitute 9mm Shield or other favored subcompact) .

 

[stantheman86]

The mindset on this has changed over the decades....in the 1920's when police carried DA .38's like S&W and Colt, they trained to shoot in single action with kind of a one hand dueling stance. For decades until the 50's- 60's self defense shooting stressed single action shooting with DA shooting as being for point blank encounters. An older retired police officer once told me "if you got time to aim you got time to cock the hammer.....cranking them off in DA is for point shooting draw and Fire type stuff"

A few LEO's used trigger shoes on their duty guns because shooting was done in SA most of the time. I saw a pic of a State Trooper from the 50's - 60's with a 27 with a trigger shoe and T-grip on it.

Guys like Bill Jordan , Jim Cirillo , Massad Ayoob and others changed all this to a DA oriented combat shooting type model. In the 70's-80's large PD's like LAPD and NYPD mandated DAO service revolvers for liability. Single action shooting is all but erased from any kind of training. Let's face it, civilians tend to follow what the military and police do as far as weapons tactics.

These days not many shooters at all even care about questions like this, as snub revolvers are seen as point blank defense guns and only wheelgun enthusiasts use full size 4-6" revolvers for CC or HD.

Auto loaders rule the market these days with Glock becoming so dominant many new shooters don't even consider revolvers any more.

In short......making an SA shot under calm conditions at the range is a FAR FAR cry from cocking that hammer when you've got a human in your sights....with your mind and body in full fight or flight and hands feeling like you've got 10 thumbs. I haven't been in gunfights with a revolver but have with a rifle and muscle memory kicks in strong under extreme duress.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Ayoob is a great guy , and has a degree of influence , but he's not THAT old.

While now mostly ridiculed by the tacticool crowd , The PPC was revolutionary when introduced by the FBI in the late '30s . ( For the less mossy , up thru the '80s some variations of the COF allowed optional SA at 25yd , with the rest required DA . But by that time even where technically allowed , Instructors would heavily discourage actually doing so. And pretty much all the PPC competitors did all DA).

Elmer Keith was famous for both his SA and DA revolvers. But he did much to promote the idea that DA shooting was an important skill , and should be used.

 

[Shorty 45 MK2]

First off welcome to the forum!

I'm not the best shooter by any means but I can get head shots at 15 yards with my 642 standing still, but if I'm in a active mass murder situation like you posted about I will be moving and shooting or at least moving to cover and remember the 21' rule works both ways.

I love J-frames and carry one everyday but normally as a BUG, (unless mandated clothing does not allow a bigger handgun, then it's my primary.) however if I go to a place where a mass shooting is likely to take place (mall, movie theater, etc..) I carry a full size pistol or at least a midsize.

BTW: All my SD are DAO but my SD pistols are DA/SA.

 

[Model29Lover]

I like having the option of SA too. That being said, one has to train with, the only safety that always works, keeping your finger straight and off the trigger until you are ready to fire. If you have a bad habit of putting finger on trigger before you fire, which a lot of people do with revolvers due to heavy DA pull, I would not prepare myself mentally for SA shot until it is second nature to keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you are ready to fire.

 

[John R]

If it works for you do it, my main concern is the loss of speed, the bad guy is not going wait around for you to take careful aim.
Gun fights happen at amazingly fast speeds.

 

[poordevil]

Hello all, first post here.

I just bought a SW 638. I went with this over the 642 for the option of cocking it single action.

I keep reading forums where people say you will only ever use a revolver in double action for self defense.

Honestly, though, I don't know how true that is.

My concern, and the reason for getting a carry gun, is less about being worried about attempted muggings or random one-on-one or multiple-on-one violent situations. I don't go many "dangerous" places. Yes, it could happen.

However, my larger concern is that you never know where someone is going to snap and go nuts. Someone whips out a gun and starts shooting people in a store, a theater, a restaurant, a crowded room, and nobody else is armed or able.

If I'm across the room or in a part of the room currently not getting shot, I need the next shot to really, really count. Particularly if there's not a great body shot due to angle.

In this situation, I would want to be able to get the psycho in the head from 10 or 15 yards if I need to (maybe considered unrealistic with a snubnose J by a lot of folks, but plenty of people on Youtube can do it and in a trapped mass shooting life/death situation you wouldn't have much other choice.)

And so I think buying and carrying a gun that enables you to take half a second longer to put it in single action is reasonable and logical.

I guess I'm asking the forum to show me where I'm being unreasonable or unlogical.

Thoughts, opinions?

Thanks all,

I get what you are saying and I pretty much agree. But for me, that longer shot would be better with a K frame sized pistol. A M-13 w/ 3" BBL for example. The J frame snubby w/2" BBL @40-50 feet or so just sounds to iffy to me.

 

[.455_Hunter]

I cut my shooting teeth with a SAO revolver (.22 Single-Six) and a DAO revolver (.38 Enfield No 1, Mk 2*). It was not until college than I acquired a SA/DA revolver (Both .357's- a 4" Police Service-Six and a 6" 28-2), and after college a "concealed carry" revolver- a 60-12. I carry SAO, DAO and SA/DA revolvers for defensive use to this day with a high degree of interchangeability.

I view the SA capability as a potentially valuable tool for necessary precision shots, and have a simple question for the DAO proponents:

You claim that adrenaline will render the SA cocking operation a fumble prone cluster, and you will prematurely discharge your weapon into the nearest baby carriage or innocent bystander remotely in your line of fire.

What will the adrenaline dump due to your highly toned DA stoke? I suspect your 15 yrd "minute of felon head" DAO accuracy will be reduced to a herky, jerky mess trying it's best to duplicate the 75 yrd buckshot pattern out of a riot gun.

You can't claim that adrenaline will have all sorts of negative impacts on SA shooting while ignoring the impacts on DA shooting, some of which have the SAME potential liability issues.