Questions regarding M&P15 as first AR

[email4eric]

I'm considering expanding from pistols into rifles. I'm nearly sure that I will try the AR platform first and am considering getting the M&P15 Sport over the holidays as the prices are really good and the reputation is solid. Also considering the standard Colt 6920. My goal is to get the best value (defined as obtaining the most essential features for the least cost such that the fewest aftermarket add-ons are needed) and the M&P15 certainly appears to be in that realm.

But the AR platform is dizzying in the array of possible configurations and there are many "gotchas," dead ends, and things one would wish they'd done or not done in retrospect. As such, it seems important to get as much of the rifle you want initially such that buying a bunch of aftermarket items doesn't kill the fact that you got a good deal! I'm not into experimenting with lots of gadgets, accessories, and buying things for the sake of buying them. I'm way into learning from others who have! I'd rather spend my $$ smartly and efficiently up front to the extent that I can.

My use is geared toward near- and mid-length range use (up to 250 yds), and general utility outdoor defense (not interior). I won't be hunting with this rifle. I've read a lot here and on other sites and have come to the conclusion that keeping the M&P15 relatively stock keeps it light and nimble. I like that and am willing to adapt to it where I can in order to keep it that way.

So first question: Are there folks out there for whom the stock 15 Sport is perfect for their needs right out of the box and requires little to no mods? Or, are there changes nearly everyone makes initially? I would expect a trigger and the addition of optics might be on that short list(?).

What I'm most unclear about is mounting optics on this rifle and how the stock sights (especially the rear) interact with that. I "think" I would like a 3x optic like the Vortex Spitfire but it looks like to mount it in that correct location, the rear MBUS would have to be removed entirely. Is this so?

I'm in my 50's with eyes that are less than youthful and could use all the help I can get with visualizing the target. I'm okay with getting some optical help but am concerned about losing the iron sites as a backup if mounting optics.

I also could use guidance with regard to the difference between going with something like the Spitfire vs using a non-magnifying red dot. I know that with anything over, say 3x, the front sight "goes away." But I'm unclear how the red dot interacts with the stock sights. I understand that you can "co-witness" a red dot with your iron sights but I'm not entirely sure what that means -- do you line-up the front and rear sights with the red dot all together? How's that more helpful than simply using the iron sights? Would a red dot be adequate for 2 MOA at 100 yds? Would I need magnification instead? How about for distances beyond that?

I'll leave it at that for now -- thanks for putting up with the long-winded post! I appreciate everyone's experience and wisdom.

Eric

 

[jframe]

I,too, am looking for a basic AR. My parameters are much like yours, except that I may also use the rifle for home defense. Other than that, you have made my case for an AR almost exactly. Looking forward to anyone's response as well; I just feel that in these troubled times I may need more than what my .22's can provide. I've looked at the Ruger budget AR, but I've always been an S&W guy, so I want to lean in that direction.

 

[sgtsandman]

For what the OP is looking for, the M&P15 will fit the bill. Personal preference will go into whether you look at the Sport, which does not have the forward assist or a bolt dust cover, or another model. With today's cartridges, you almost never need a forward assist and they can actually get you into trouble. The dust cover is a personal call. Firearms went for a very long time without one. If you don't see yourself crawling through a lot of dirt and mud, then you could probably not worry about it. Bang for the buck, the Sport is probably the best or one of the best buys out there.

For an optic, a straight 3X may be a little much for closer in. I think a 1-4X or something similar would be better for the ranges you are asking about.

For red dots, the co-witness mount is another personal preference. Some prefer having the front post centered with the dot. Others prefer it be at the lower 1/3 of the sight glass. I prefer center just because the cheek weld would not change.

For the red dot, you can mount it forward so the rear sight can be raised and not worry about it. But most red dots are only 1X.

With a scope, you can get ones with a longer eye relief like ones designed for scout rifles but I'm not sure how well a scope would play with that. The scope would need to be mounted with a quick release mount or you would need back up sights that mount at a 45 degree angle. 45 degree mounts are usually designed to not change how they sit in relation barrel elevation, just the angle they are mounted at. You just rotate the rifle 45 degrees and keep going.

Of course, if you are inclined to go the scope route, you might want to look at a rifle that does not have a sight integrated into the gas block.

Personal opinion. Colt is a fine company but I feel they charge more for what you are getting because of the name. Either rifle will serve you well but I think the M&P15 is the better value.

 

[email4eric]

Wow, Sandman, talk about bang for the buck (your post!)!

Thanks for that well reasoned and informative post. Now to ponder it...

 

[email4eric]

I,too, am looking for a basic AR. My parameters are much like yours, except that I may also use the rifle for home defense. Other than that, you have made my case for an AR almost exactly. Looking forward to anyone's response as well; I just feel that in these troubled times I may need more than what my .22's can provide. I've looked at the Ruger budget AR, but I've always been an S&W guy, so I want to lean in that direction.

Glad that this may help you as well!

Of course consider pistols and shotguns for your inside needs as well!

 

[Mister X]

I'm a bit confused by what you are referring to when you say "general utility outdoor defense."

I used to have an M&P 15 and they are fine rifles. I would be OK with about any of them except for the sport model. The role mine served was primarily as a defensive firearm if ever having to take an interior fixed position such as during a home invasion. In that limited role, I saw no need for an optic. Irregardless of what set up you go with, it should be optimized for close-quarters. And from the perspective of civilian self-defense, I give no validity to the idea of realistically having to engage targets at long ranges. I know that's not a very "tacticool" answer, but the probability simply isn't there to justify the time and expense on gear and training.

 

[amazingflapjack]

find something with a gas cylinder operating system.

 

[email4eric]

find something with a gas cylinder operating system.

Do you mean gas piston? Can you elaborate?

 

[email4eric]

I'm a bit confused by what you are referring to when you say "general utility outdoor defense."

I used to have an M&P 15 and they are fine rifles. I would be OK with about any of them except for the sport model. The role mine served was primarily as a defensive firearm if ever having to take an interior fixed position such as during a home invasion. In that limited role, I saw no need for an optic. Irregardless of what set up you go with, it should be optimized for close-quarters. And from the perspective of civilian self-defense, I give no validity to the idea of realistically having to engage targets at long ranges. I know that's not a very "tacticool" answer, but the probability simply isn't there to justify the time and expense on gear and training.

Thanks for pointing that out. What I should have written was "general utility (meaning plinking outdoors, truck gun, etc.), and outdoor defense (meaning I don't plan to use it indoors for defense -- I've got other strategies for that)."

Agreed, unless there's some sort of social breakdown situation (and I have to stretch my imagination to envision that), I don't see engaging targets defensively at long range either.

 

[Rick_A]

Colt is a fine company but I feel they charge more for what you are getting because of the name. Either rifle will serve you well but I think the M&P15 is the better value.

This is a fallacy. Make no mistake, you get what you pay for. That said an M&P is a fine gun.

With a Colt there is heatshields under the handguards, a chrome lined true M4 profile barrel with a 1/7 twist that is made of a higher grade of steel (4150 vs 4140) and parkerized vs melonite. There is the forward assist and dust cover. The bolt is of Carpenter 158 and they are individually proof tested and magnetic particle inspected (the specs on the M&P bolt are unknown and they are presumably batch tested). The bolt carrier is a full profile where the Sport is a commercial. Colt uses a heavy buffer as standard where the S&W is a standard carbine buffer. The trigger guard is integral on the Smith and hinged/removable on the Colt. I'm sure there's more but that's a start.

You generally get what you pay for. A blanket statement like "you pay more for the name" is ignorant. You pay more for more, though none of the above will make for a better shooter. It's all small details that cost more money to produce. Theoretically the Colt barrel and bolt will last longer and take more abuse, and the full profile bolt and heavier buffer make for a slightly smoother shooter, but a bolt and barrel are consumable items in the long term, anyway.

Buy what you want that suits your needs and you're willing to pay for. They can all be upgraded with whatever you want to make of it, bit the more that's put into an inexpensive gun, the less you get back.

I have everything from a nice Colt to a lowly DPMS and they all work.

Smith and Wesson represents one of the best bargains and good quality for a base gun.

The Smith is common and popular and loses substantial value as soon as it walks out the shop door. The Colt is sought after and respected, retaining an excellent retail value so long as it is kept as standard.

Rant over. Buy what you like.

A decent optic and perhaps a good trigger are things I like to add. All the furniture and handguard/rail upgrades folks obsess over is all fluff.

 

[Kadonny]

I agree with @Rick_A. As much as I love my Sport, I'll take a Colt any day over it. That being said, the Sport is a fine rifle and a great bang for the buck. You can take it out of the box, zero the iron sites and you have a fine shooting and reliable rifle. Now the whole issue is people normally want more than that, thus adding/changing of optics, triggers, handguards/rails etc.

For a HD gun and a general shooter out to 250 yards, get yourself an affordable magnified red dot and the gun will do all that you want it to.

 

[BAM-BAM]

The whole mil-spec argument ..... gives me a headache.........

As far as I garnered from my reading Mil-spec's date from the 60/70s, none of my ARs are full auto or 3rd burst..I will never mount a 40mm launcher under the barrel.... and the world has figured out the Vietnam ammo/powder issues........

There's a great line from "We were Solders"......Sam Elliott "If I need a rifle there will be plenty laying around". Still haven't figured out why the folks on "The Walking Dead" aren't better armed.

The chances of one truely "needing" a rifle are slim....if the SHTF a semi-auto rifle is comforting.... TEOTWAWKI......a battle rifle is about 4th or 5th on my list of must haves!! After water,food, good health,fire and a low profile/shelter.

The prices on all AR have come down since 2012/13.... and the last scare... w/ Paris that may change..... or everyone who wants one, gots one! Spend a few extra dollars and buy the "best" that fits your budget.

A lot of good ARs out there.....I'm happy with my M&Ps and a 1990s Bushmaster (which is from the ABC days..... Armilite,Bushmaster and Colt)which "on that other forum" folks say are better than today's BMs.

The S&Ws wear Aimpoints..... the Bushmaster w/ a fixed Ace stock wears a 1-4 x20 Leupold scope. Remember a 2moa dot covers 2inches at 100yds and 4inchs at 200 ( a lot of CQB dots are 4moa)...... so 'red dots" are not intended for Target/sniper use....... just keep the shots under the dot .... so for me a match trigger is down the list.....I'd rather have a "for SHTF light" first

I own 30 rd mags; why not...... but "like" 20 rounders for general/primary mag. use.... but shoot mostly with Magpul new 10round mags.

 

[lrrifleman]

Good morning. I am going to wade in with my 2 cents.

I have an older (90's) vintage Colt HBAR Match Target that I upraded for NRA/CMP matches, and earned my master competition classification with it. I started building an AR space gun with a Bushmaster lower, and that project went on hold when I had my accident in '07. Since the accident, I built a long range AR on another Bushmaster lower for F class Long Range matches, and then for the fun of it, I built an M4 type CQB rifle.

The CQB rifle cost me about $500 for everything. I have an Aero Precision lower, a DPMS upper, and a beautiful 18" spiral fluted stainless heavy barrel I bought from PSA for under $100. I did put on detachable iron sights, but the primary sight is a panoramic BSA red image sight, backed up by a red laser under the handguard, then the MBUS. I included the MBUS only because batteries die at the wrong moment. I did recycle an issue style trigger kit from the Bushmasters, but everything else came from eBay.

My word to the wise is to identify the mission of your rifle before you buy or build. What I have learned is that the most overlooked element is intended bullet weight and barrel twist. 1:9 is good to launch up to 72 grain bullets out to 450 yards, 1:7 or 1:8 is better for 80 grainers, out to 1000, depending on barrel length and safely generated muzzle velocity.



Please be forewarned, as a competitive rifleman, I focus on what I call "match accuracy", the smallest group size at the greatest distance. With the way I built my CQB, I can launch 69gr MatchKing bullets and engage a "target" out to a comfortable 600 yards, and expect to connect with a full sized K5 type target.

 

[sgtsandman]

This is a fallacy. Make no mistake, you get what you pay for. That said an M&P is a fine gun.



With a Colt there is heatshields under the handguards, a chrome lined true M4 profile barrel with a 1/7 twist that is made of a higher grade of steel (4150 vs 4140) and parkerized vs melonite. There is the forward assist and dust cover. The bolt is of Carpenter 158 and they are individually proof tested and magnetic particle inspected (the specs on the M&P bolt are unknown and they are presumably batch tested). The bolt carrier is a full profile where the Sport is a commercial. Colt uses a heavy buffer as standard where the S&W is a standard carbine buffer. The trigger guard is integral on the Smith and hinged/removable on the Colt. I'm sure there's more but that's a start.



You generally get what you pay for. A blanket statement like "you pay more for the name" is ignorant. You pay more for more, though none of the above will make for a better shooter. It's all small details that cost more money to produce. Theoretically the Colt barrel and bolt will last longer and take more abuse, and the full profile bolt and heavier buffer make for a slightly smoother shooter, but a bolt and barrel are consumable items in the long term, anyway.



Buy what you want that suits your needs and you're willing to pay for. They can all be upgraded with whatever you want to make of it, bit the more that's put into an inexpensive gun, the less you get back.



I have everything from a nice Colt to a lowly DPMS and they all work.



Smith and Wesson represents one of the best bargains and good quality for a base gun.



The Smith is common and popular and loses substantial value as soon as it walks out the shop door. The Colt is sought after and respected, retaining an excellent retail value so long as it is kept as standard.



Rant over. Buy what you like.



A decent optic and perhaps a good trigger are things I like to add. All the furniture and handguard/rail upgrades folks obsess over is all fluff.

I agree with @Rick_A. As much as I love my Sport, I'll take a Colt any day over it. That being said, the Sport is a fine rifle and a great bang for the buck. You can take it out of the box, zero the iron sites and you have a fine shooting and reliable rifle. Now the whole issue is people normally want more than that, thus adding/changing of optics, triggers, handguards/rails etc.

For a HD gun and a general shooter out to 250 yards, get yourself an affordable magnified red dot and the gun will do all that you want it to.

I will admit I may be a bit biased. The only experience I have with Colt rifles is with the military and since I'm a mechanic in the Air Force we don't get issued one. The only rifles we touch are whatever the Air Force deems fit for us to have for qualification before deploying and the beat up M-16 they handed me to carry in theater. I was less than impressed. They function fine but I feel I can shoot better with my hunting rifles than with what they chose to give me to perform my duty.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

But the AR platform is dizzying in the array of possible configurations and there are many "gotchas," dead ends, and things one would wish they'd done or not done in retrospect. As such, it seems important to get as much of the rifle you want initially such that buying a bunch of aftermarket items doesn't kill the fact that you got a good deal!

Highlighted (Wise man)

Generally, there are two things that new AR owners don't get right from the start. You'll find the forum littered with folks who bought a Sport and want to remove or replace the standard A2 front sight with a folding front sight to accommodate an optic. The other thing is the type of handguard which also plays a part in having a folding front sight as well as attaching accessories.

The term "cowitness" simply means that you can use your front and rear sights looking through the optic like a window. Only non-magnified "1x" optics will allow this. Magnified optics will not allow cowitness, even magnified optics advertised having 1x, such as 1-4x.

1x red dot optics are useful for fast target acquisition. They offer unlimited field of view and eye relief, and parallax is a non-issue for the purpose. You simply pick up the rifle, point and click. They are also useful for folks who don't want any magnification but have old eyes that struggle with front and rear sights. The 1x red dot is very accommodating because all the shooter need do is focus down range and the dot appears to be on target. The front and rear sights are typically used as "backup" in the event the red dot fails. Some guys don't like the front sight in the window of the red dot optic, hence folding front sight.

1x red dots are not well suited for those who agonize over making small groups on paper. Magnified optics with crosshairs is better suited.

You're right, there is a dizzying array of ARs to choose from. But generally speaking, there are two basic carbine configurations to decide between (and I'll sneak in a third OR). If you choose the right one, you'll not spend more than you need to or end up spending money replacing parts you just bought..... then you can put money toward something that really matters, a trigger.

Sport

15T

OR

--------

Once you decide on the basic configuration then you can choose the particulars. For example, if you want a handguard to accommodate folding sights and accessories, then you can choose from 6 billion different handguards of different lengths and styles... quad or keymod, free float or not..... and after a six-pack a little voice in your head will suggest building your own AR.

 

[McE]

There is no bad first AR, no matter what you buy, it'll help you understand your preferences.

After buying an M&P15 Sport, I'm fairly certain I will never want to buy another AR with the A2 front sight gas block setup. It's just too confining in terms of sight setup, handguard setup, and it's heavy to boot. I don't shoot in dangerous conditions, I don't need triple contingencies for equipment failure. My longer-range AR doesn't have irons at all. Just because there's rail space doesn't mean you need to throw **** on it. People don't go throwing back-up iron sights on their hunting rifles, right?

 

[McE]

And I know people say you can just swap out the A2FSGB with a low profile/rail/flip sight/etc. I used to tell people this, too. But it is definitely easier said than done.

I got a new gas block in today and am literally in the middle of removing the A2FSGB. I have never hammered anything so hard in my life (inappropriate jokes aside). I've got one pin out drama-free with some pounding, and taking a breather. Still not looking forward to probably scratching the heck out of the barrel as I drag it off.

Wish I had access to a hydraulic press or even a drill press as I've heard some people just drill out the darn pins.

 

[gunfighter48]

The M&P 15 Sport was my second AR. I originally had a Olympic Arms AR15 that was very accurate. The Sport is even more accurate than the Oly that I had. I took off the FSB and put on a low pro gas block. I put on a Midwest 10" free float quad rail handguard. I also installed a Timney 4lb trigger and a Nikon P223 3X-9X scope (old eyes). Other than that it's a stock Sport. You can spend a lot more for an AR and not get much more in performance. The Sport is an excellent choice for a all around AR!!

 

[email4eric]

WOW! Thanks very much for the wide array of opinions and nuggets of information. Especially to ChattanoogaPhil for addressing specifics and injecting wisdome -- really appreciate that -- cheers Phil!

Aaaarrrrgggghhhhh....so much to ponder. Now (and after much more reading) I'm wondering if that value sweet spot doesn't reside with the Colt LE6920 or variant.

I'm thinking I'm going to miss out on any holiday deals I was targeting as I'm just not yet knowledgeable enough to choose the right first rifle.

I do know that I want quality, value, light and nimble, and the ability to add optics while retaining the BUIS front and rear. I think buying the Sport would result in the realization that I should have gone another way.

Going with the 15T starts to reach the price of a 6920 which arguably is a tier above the M&P.

It's a slippery slope, isn't it? HA! You AR people are all crazy!

 

[lrrifleman]

@Eric,

As I suggested earlier (in this thread I believe), it is always advisable to identify the mission of your rifle before you buy it, especially with an AR.

Some people seek tactical, some "tacticool", others versatility, while others seek precision.

Remember, you can purchase an economical, quality AR, and progress from there. You can build an upper, with or without a bolt carrier group, and put it on the basic rifle you bought, without issue.

After my accident, where I had 3 damaged limbs, I wanted to return to rifle competition, but my arm and leg injuries were working against me. Aside from my 03 beating me up, my damaged left arm could only support perhaps 3 shots in prone before it gave out. I then decided to build a long range AR. I spoke with Paul at Sierra, and he affirmed that I could build a safe reload to fire through an AR that would remain supersonic at 1000 yards. Fortunately, I had an unused complete lower that I put a 1:8" 28" White Oak Armament match upper on for 1k long range matches. I am now competing in F class matches. Excluding optics, that rifle cost about $1100.

If you want to buy a Sport, you can always swap out the upper. THAT is the beauty of an AR platform. If you shop judiciously, you can acquire the parts you want and need, then assemble it in under half an hour. For example:
a) CQB upper, with railed handguard: under $200
b) a 20-24" rifle upper with railed handguard: $300-400, depending on barrel make and twist.
c) a 26" barrel, with 1:8 twist with a railed handguard: anywhere from $600 to over a grand.
d) an acceptable caliber conversion, $400 on up. A conversion that is gaining the attention of long range shooters is the 6mm Fat Rat, which will cost about $600, just for the barrel and bolt, receiver and handguard plus the associated parts being extra. This set up is a handload only proposition.

Since you seem to dislike the traditional AR sight base, it sounds like you want a clean CQB upper.

If you wish to discuss this, please feel free to PM me at your leisure.