Armed Contractor In Your Home

[ChattanoogaPhil]

in the situation described by the OP you are asking a homeowner to accept legal liability for the possible actions of a stranger.......

Well that's true. But let's be realistic about the risk of liability here. If you're hosting a party where you're serving booze, there is FAR more risk of liability from your guests driving home drunk from the bartender serving them alcohol than serving them bullets.
The notion of open carry bartender liability seems like more of a method of obfuscation to mask the real issue of an irrational fear of guns.

 

[BAM-BAM]

I'm not telling or asking you or anyone to do anything. All I'm doing is pointing out the implications of a particular type of reasoning. Again, I also repeatedly said my point has nothing to do with her right to carry a gun or the 2nd Amendemnt or the first Amendment for that matter. Those are irrelevant digressions. Bringing up these issues indicates that my posts are not actually being read.

I've read your posts..... all of them.

The OP is about a "stranger"/contractor open or concealed carrying a firearm in your home.

Yes I will admit that some of my reasons for my decision on not letting a "stranger" carry a gun into my home are similar to arguments put forth by the anti-gun crowd.

My read of your posts ( see post 76.... my edit of your post) is:
That because I may not want a "stranger" with a gun in my house;

for reasons similar to those expressed by the anti-gun crowd on why they think guns should be controlled on a national level...

this overlap somehow places me in agreement with; and an unconscious supporter of, the AG crowds position....

I just haven't realized it yet!



I do not think the two are in any way related to the other........how I deal with a "stranger" with a gun who wants to enter my home and how society handles the lawful, and in my opinion inalienable right to keep and bear arms, are separate and distinct issues that do not overlap.

 

[American1776]

Comparing my home to a private business is an apples to The Empire State Building comparison.

If I enter your business I've already conceded to your right to make the rules there. If I don't consent I don't go in. But just because recognize your Right to make the rules in your business doesn't mean I have to follow the same rules you set in your business in my home.

I fully believe in your right to dictate who enters your property, as I fully believe in a business open to the public to decide who enters.

You write: " But just because recognize your Right to make the rules in your business doesn't mean I have to follow the same rules you set in your business in my home." I absolutely agree with everything you say here. My point is this: now that we agree that you can set whatever policy in your own home about strangers entering with firearms, WHAT policy you actually decide to adopt is very revealing about what you generally think of other Americans being armed in your own presence. This situation is a great litmus test for determining what your policy on others being armed would be 'if you were in charge for a day'. Well, in your own home, you are in charge! So now we can see, based on what policy regarding armed Americans you take, whether you really do believe that others should be able to go armed, not just you. If you say, 'no armed strangers in my home', then you are commited to the position that you really want to be the only one armed, and nobody else. Or, if you say, 'just the friends I like', then what you're really saying is that you want only your buddies to have guns, but not anyone else you don't know. This is essentially the position of places like NYC and NJ.

Reasons that you might marshal to support your position include not wanting to risk liability, or you don't know if the armed American might shoot you, or ND, or maybe she's just looking for a confrontation. ALL of these reasons fall under the same umbrella theme of: I really don't trust armed Americans around me. Whether they are in your own home (the only place your really have the power to control whether others are armed), or they are at the park or in the store, matters not one bit with regards to this larger point about the type of REASONING that goes on here.

I'm not telling people what to do. It's your property, you decide. All I'm doing is pointing out the logical implications of the type of reasoning used to support a particular decision on this matter.

My point is not about the 2nd Amendment, or about a right to self defense, or about the 1st Amendment, or any other digression that others have bought up.

This isn't really a difficult thing to grasp.

 

[BAM-BAM]

Well that's true. But let's be realistic about the risk of liability here. If you're hosting a party where you're serving booze, there is FAR more risk of liability from your guests driving home drunk from the bartender serving them alcohol than serving them bullets.
The notion of open carry bartender liability seems like more of a method of obfuscation to mask the real issue of an irrational fear of guns.

See post #70 on why I might hire a bartender......and why I'd want a "professional " (let me add bonded and insured) bartender vs someone who answers an ad off the net.

 

[BAM-BAM]

The notion of open carry bartender liability seems like more of a method of obfuscation to mask the real issue of an irrational fear of guns.

Or, maybe I have a rational concern about inviting "strangers" with guns into my home!

The Key word here is "stranger"

If a "stranger" comes to your door at 7 PM tonight openly carrying a firearm (the OP; bartender showing up before the party).... told you his car broke down .... and asks to; come in and use your phone to call AAA.

Invite him in?

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Do I want my guests thinking I think I need armed staff when they visit? will my guest feel comfortable at this party or come to my next one?

If the host is inviting guests that suffer anxiety at the mere sight of a gun and wishes to accommodate those fears, then that's thier call. There is no right or wrong answer.

On the flip side, why wouldn't an intelligent and thoughtful guest understand why a young lady should have the ability to defend herself at all times? Why would I invite a guest who can't comprehend such a simple natural thing?

 

[Safestuffer]

No I would not let a stranger into my house who was open carrying.
I also would not hire a woman who's answer to "it might be dangerous, you sure"? was "I have a big hammer for any type nail I might encounter".
I just don't go anywhere near a situation in which I feel the display of a firearm might be necessary for my safety.

But just because I don't allow people who I don't know into my house, my private residence, who are openly carrying firearms, doesn't mean I don't acknowledge and support their absolute right to do so outside of my home, in public domain.
If that bothers you, don't buy anything that I'm NOT selling, don't come seeking services I'm NOT offering, and don't walk around in a private residence you DON'T reside at expecting to be treated like its either public property, or you live there.
Because it ain't and you don't.

I carry for self defense in public places, specifically because I can't vet the people I interact with. Its public domain. In private places such as my house you bet I'll take what steps I can to increase my safety. This includes not allowing firearms to be carried openly in my house by people I don't know.
Your right to carry in public domain does not trump the rights of a property owner to decide what they will allow on their private property.

 

[BAM-BAM]

If the host is inviting guests that suffer anxiety at the mere sight of a gun and wishes to accommodate those fears, then that's thier call. There is no right or wrong answer.

On the flip side, why wouldn't an intelligent and thoughtful guest understand why a young lady should have the ability to defend herself at all times? Why would I invite a guest who can't comprehend such a simple natural thing?

I think you have to take into account the "social norms" of American Society...going to a "neighborhood party" (vs Texas BBQ) and seeing openly armed wait/catering staff...... is a bit out of the ordinary in this country....well at least in my neighborhood.........

Me and I thinks most folks; first thoughts would go more towards "armed security" not "glad that young lady has the ability to defend herself on the way home."

The question in my mind would be why? My wife would be more like "this is not normal; lets just go!"

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Or, maybe I have a rational concern about inviting "strangers" with guns into my home!

The Key word here is "stranger"

None of my friends are washer/dryer delivery boys, gas log installers, carpet installers, bug sprayers or house cleaners. These people are all strangers when they arrive.

I don't require workers to prove to me they aren't carrying, Do you? If not, then it's just a matter of pretending they don't have a gun unless it's riding on thier hip. And if they remove the one on their hip you'll not see the one in thier boot. So what's the point?

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

I think you have to take into account the "social norms" of American Society...going to a "neighborhood party" (vs Texas BBQ) and seeing openly armed wait/catering staff...... is a bit out of the ordinary in this country....well at least in my neighborhood.........

Me and I thinks most folks; first thoughts would go more towards "armed security" not "glad that young lady has the ability to defend herself on the way home."

The question in my mind would be why? My wife would be more like "this is not normal; lets just go!"

Right. Which brings us full circle to my original point about your posting.

"Both describe an uncomfortableness and fear at the mere sight of a gun. "

 

[V0OBWxZS16]

I'm a home inspector. I go into different homes and meet new clients daily. I do NOT carry a firearm into peoples' homes. (if the situation is that bad, I cancel, and leave). My pistol stays locked in the truck. Seems like good manners to me.

You have that backwards. Expecting someone to disarm before entering your home is rude.

I would have to say no for liability reasons. If she shoots someone regardless of the reason, you could be held liable since you hired her knowing she was armed.

And what about your natural liability to her if she is harmed?

 

[arjay]

Right. Which brings us full circle to my original point about your posting.

"Both describe an uncomfortableness and fear at the mere sight of a gun. "

Totally dependent on whether I judge the carrier to be sane or a total goober

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

My question was never is it OK for the girl or the Orkin Man to open carry in your home. The question was is it OK for the contractor to be armed in your home?

Open Carry is just a logistics issue because the only way I would know is if they were open carrying.

If I was the Orkin man that requires working in the homes of strangers I'd be armed. I would not expect anything different of others that I hire to work in my home.

 

[handejector]

I have to let any non-felon carrying a gun into my home if there is a legitimate reason for them being there, like remodeling or service at a party or event, or it means I'm an elitist that doesn't truly believe in everyone's right to self defense.
Yeah, right.

So, the Iranian carpet crew shows up in skull caps and traditional dress, with every one carrying a slung AK, and I shouldn't even take notice, or it means I'm an elitist that doesn't truly believe in everyone's right to self defense.
Okayyyy..........

My loony neighbor(non felon AFAIK) stops by looking as stupid and crazy as ever, Cond 1 1911 in a cross draw, to borrow a shovel, and I have to invite him to go to the garage with me, or it means I'm an elitist that doesn't truly believe in everyone's right to self defense.
I gotcha.

We're having 25 family members over for the annual reunion, including crazy Uncle Joe, whom I've known to be an idiot for over 60 years, but he has a permit, so I have to let him pack around the grandkids, or it means I'm an elitist that doesn't truly believe in everyone's right to self defense.
I'm good with that. Better to lose a kid or two than appear to not REALLY believe in everyone's right to self defense.

Had a friend for decades that is older than me. We've shot and hunted together for many, many years. He's developed a palsy that makes his hands shake badly, but I'm still OK with him packin his Glock or tuned 1911 around the kids, cause I can't bear the thought of bein an elitist that doesn't truly believe in everyone's right to self defense.

So, sure, anybody I met today on FB would be welcome to pack in my house, cause I can't bear the thought of bein an elitist that doesn't truly believe in everyone's right to self defense. I hope they know the words to "Kumbaya" and "Michael Row the Boat Ashore" cause I want them to feel the love.

A rather lamely extrapolated philosophical point that one is INSISTING you fall on one side or the other of with no qualifications allowed. It simply bears no relationship to reality. We ALL know people who are legal gunowners that we never take our eyes off of when there are both guns and ammo at hand. If you haven't met one, just spend 4 hours a week at gun shops and ranges until you become enlightened. You won't get into February.

While I support every idiot's right to self defense, and, therefore, to own a gun, it does NOT mean I will allow said idiot to pack in my house.
Make of that what you will.

 

[American1776]

I have to let any non-felon carrying a gun into my home if there is a legitimate reason for them being there, like remodeling or service at a party or event, or it means I'm an elitist that doesn't truly believe in everyone's right to self defense.
Yeah, right.

So, the Iranian carpet crew shows up in skull caps and traditional dress, with every one carrying a slung AK, and I shouldn't even take notice, or it means I'm an elitist that doesn't truly believe in everyone's right to self defense.
Okayyyy..........

My loony neighbor(non felon AFAIK) stops by looking as stupid and crazy as ever, Cond 1 1911 in a cross draw, to borrow a shovel, and I have to invite him to go to the garage with me, or it means I'm an elitist that doesn't truly believe in everyone's right to self defense.
I gotcha.

We're having 25 family members over for the annual reunion, and I have to let crazy Uncle Joe, whom I've known to be an idiot for over 60 years, but he has a permit, so I have to let him pack around the grandkids, or it means I'm an elitist that doesn't truly believe in everyone's right to self defense.
I'm good with that. Better to lose a kid or two than appear to not REALLY believe in everyone's right to self defense.

Had a friend for decades that is older than me. We've shot and hunted together for many, many years. He's developed a palsy that makes his hands shake badly, but I'm still OK with him packin his Glock or tuned 1911 around the kids, cause I can't bear the thought of bein an elitist that doesn't truly believe in everyone's right to self defense.

So, sure, anybody I met today on FB would be welcome to pack in my house, cause I can't bear the thought of bein an elitist that doesn't truly believe in everyone's right to self defense. I hope they know the words to "Kumbaya" and "Michael Row the Boat Ashore" cause I want them to feel the love.

A rather lamely extrapolated philosophical point that one is INSISTING you fall on one side or the other of with no qualifications allowed. It simply bears no relationship to reality. We ALL know people who are legal gunowners that we never take our eyes off of when their are both guns and ammo at hand. If you haven't met one, just spend 4 hours a week at gun shops and ranges until you become enlightened. You won't get into February.

While I support every idiot's right to self defense, and, therefore, to own a gun, it does NOT mean I will allow said idiot to pack in my house.
Make of that what you will.

There's a major difference between
1) allowing the typical gun permit holding armed American in your house as a default position (what I advocate in my own posts) and
2) allowing those individuals in your home who have already demonstrated that they are squirrelly people with guns.
I never said you MUST allow everyone in with a firearm. Do not conflate these two very distinct positions, which you seem to do by lumping them all in one post in a sarcastic attempt to make a caracther of my own position.

Your point here: "I have to let any non-felon carrying a gun into my home if there is a legitimate reason for them being there, like remodeling or service at a party or event, or it means I'm an elitist that doesn't truly believe in everyone's right to self defense." I'll help you out on this one: YES. As a general default position, if you really believe in true American freedom, then that entails that we ought to recognize that freedom in everyone, until they demonstrate that they are not to be trusted with certain freedoms. As I said before: every single gun control group uses the same exact reasoning you just used here to justify banning gun ownership and carry anywhere. To quote you again, in the voice of the gun controller: 'I have to let every non-felon own or carry a gun, otherwise I'm an elitist who doesn't believe in freedom? Actually, YES. This is how a presumption of freedom works. This does not commit one to letting EVERYONE carry or own a gun, in your home, or anywhere else.

Like I said in other posts, your property means that you can decide who you let in to your house. How you decide on how you view generally law abiding Americans with firearms will reveal to what extent you actually really believe in recognizing the freedom of others.

Another one of your quotes: "While I support every idiot's right to self defense, and, therefore, to own a gun, it does NOT mean I will allow said idiot to pack in my house." It's very revealing that you refer to others other than yourself as 'idiots', yet you constantly Talk about an 'elitist' position. Someone has an elitist position, and it's not me.

 

[old&slow]

I actually thought this has been an interesting and well mannered debate.

Personally I wouldn't hire the bartender because of the tatoos, plus the open carry. But really good looking and no tatoos with a CCW, I probably would go for it.

 

[ladder13]

......
Strange; I've never seen a openly armed Orkin man before...what kind of bugs does he think I have here ...

You never been to Florida?

 

[kbm6893]

You just described KBM6893 to a "T"

Not even close. I encourage everyone to get a gun and carry it. I am currently a reference on 2 people's concealed permit application.

As for letting cops in, if they have a legal right to be in my home, I have no say in the matter. If they want to question me for some reason and they do not have a right to come in, then I can (and will, depending on the nature of their business) tell them to take a hike. I'm as pro-cop as they come, but in my area, I don't have much love for the troopers. They look down on everybody, yet their entire day consists of writing tickets and handling accidents. if you call them, be prepared to wait over an hour for them to show. Not much work for a cop, if you ask me.

What a waste of time even coming up with this question. it's your home, do as you wish. And what a dumb attitude, to label somebody as an "elitist" because I don't want somebody I don't know or trust with a gun in my house. This last week alone, two stories of deaths due to some idiot screwing around with a gun, and those idiots weren't strangers. Just this week, I saw some Open Carry guy at Walmart. Looked like his family tree was a telephone pole. But sure, come on in! Don't want to be called an "elitist"

 

[Safestuffer]

There's a major difference between
1) allowing the typical gun permit holding armed American in your house as a default position (what I advocate in my own posts) and
2) allowing those individuals in your home who have already demonstrated that they are squirrelly people with guns.
I never said you MUST allow everyone in with a firearm. Do not conflate these two very distinct positions, which you seem to do by lumping them all in one post in a sarcastic attempt to make a caracther of my own position.

What permit? Open carry requires no permit in my state. CCW does, but open carry does not.

 

[Bill Bates]

You know I tend to go with a don't ask, don't tell when it comes to if someone in my home is carrying: friend, family or contractor/worker. I know I have had individuals in each group armed while in the my home. The first two groups, friends and family, I know because some of them always carry. The only reason I know about a worker is because recently I had a heater AC guy working down on his knees showing me something more often associated with plumbers and I notice he had a Sig P238 in his waist band. I ignored it like what else he had exposed. No big deal.

Now if I'm hiring a young lady to tend bar I could care less if she is carrying. I would hope she would be wearing an outfit that would make concealed carry very difficult, not impossible, but close.