Carrying where "No Guns" signs are posted.

[teletech]

NOT a WalMart shopper, either. For anything. I thought I was the only one.
I give my ammo biz to my local reloader.

Nope, you are not alone... I think I went into one once just out of curiosity but in my book as a small-business owner they are anti-american in their purchising and labor practices.

 

[dougb1946]

Wish all you want, the law says the store is private property and the owners, subject to a few exceptions, can decide who comes in and who stays out. The Constitution and laws of the country make this decision, not a disgruntled gun owner. If the owner so decides, you can be trespassed off permanently and then it does become a matter of public record. Letter to the judge, a letter to the local cop shop, and a letter to you. If you object, send a letter to the owner. The owner can then decide if offending 3% or 4% of the population is worth offending the other 96%. On my property, my rights do supersede yours. You don't like it, stay off my property. I don't know you and with all the mall ninjas out there, why should I trust you with a gun on my property. If I don't know you , I probably won't hunt with you either for the same reasons. As an aside, I can forbid your gun and still carry mine, or allow my employees to carry. But I carry concealed and you won't know.

We argue that shootings in gun free areas are rare and declining and are actually aberrations . Makes it hard to walk into a gun free hardware store and justify walking past the sign. Nowhere does the Constitution give you the right to ignore the rights of another. Surprisingly, the original gave the states the right to control guns as opposed to the Feds, and guns could be controlled.

 

[Retired Chief]

The People's Republic of Illinois has two different concealed carry laws, both exist solely because the feds forced them on the politicians. The first in time is for retired LEOs, and the only restriction on place of carry are the federal restrictions: prisons, federal courthouses, commercial airliners, etc. The 2d is for anyone who wants to pay the fees and do the training and is not disqualified due to convictions, mental illness, etc. That one lists target rich (OOPS! Law calls them "gun free") zones. These include the fed restrictions, plus adds schools, malls, movie theaters, etc. (Read - anyplace that has a history of mass shootings). These 2d restrictions do not apply to ex-LEOs carrying under the first permit. Basically, retired LEOs with the permit can carry anywhere off-duty LEOs can carry.
Therefor, the "no guns" signs do not apply to me except in unusual circumstances. Obviously, I do not patronize stores with such signs, and I politely tell them why. I do carry at church and at my grandchildren's school, both prohibited to holders of permits of the 2d type.
Did your state adopt a law to implement the Retired Officer Concealed Carry passed by the Feds? If so, is that law in compliance or in conflict with the federal law? If not, do the state restrictions apply to retired LEOs? Good questions for attorneys in your state.
Just thought I would add another flavor to the discussion.

 

[Florida J Frame]

I carry these for those occasions.

 

[BigMJ80]

I myself would avoid these "gun free zones" for 2 simple facts. #1 they don't deserve my business and #2 is the fact that they are easy targets for criminals. I do not want to be in a situation where it is easy to be a victim due to the store owners negligence.

 

[Sconnie]

The owner can then decide if offending 3% or 4% of the population is worth offending the other 96%.

You make a fairly general assumption that those not carrying concealed or open are offended by others who chose to carry.

On my property, my rights do supersede yours.

Yup but remember that the criminals, who are carrying a weapon of any type don't give a lick about your rights. We law abiding citizens do. And in those states that do NOT put the force of law behind those "no gun" signs, the person carrying on your property is not a criminal. And they will remain a law abiding citizen when you ask them to leave and they leave.

Nowhere does the Constitution give you the right to ignore the rights of another. Surprisingly, the original gave the states the right to control guns as opposed to the Feds, and guns could be controlled.

Not a Constitutional scholar here. But I do believe individual states ARE approaching the issue in different ways. And personally, I am comfortable with that versus a Federal intervention as the alternative.

And from what I see posted from time to time on this forum there are plenty of states that I just would not want to move to.

Oh, and yes it is an old thread but still a relevant discussion and probably always will be.

 

[Muss Muggins]

The People's Republic of Illinois has two different concealed carry laws, both exist solely because the feds forced them on the politicians. The first in time is for retired LEOs, and the only restriction on place of carry are the federal restrictions: prisons, federal courthouses, commercial airliners, etc. The 2d is for anyone who wants to pay the fees and do the training and is not disqualified due to convictions, mental illness, etc. That one lists target rich (OOPS! Law calls them "gun free") zones. These include the fed restrictions, plus adds schools, malls, movie theaters, etc. (Read - anyplace that has a history of mass shootings). These 2d restrictions do not apply to ex-LEOs carrying under the first permit. Basically, retired LEOs with the permit can carry anywhere off-duty LEOs can carry.
Therefor, the "no guns" signs do not apply to me except in unusual circumstances. Obviously, I do not patronize stores with such signs, and I politely tell them why. I do carry at church and at my grandchildren's school, both prohibited to holders of permits of the 2d type.
Did your state adopt a law to implement the Retired Officer Concealed Carry passed by the Feds? If so, is that law in compliance or in conflict with the federal law? If not, do the state restrictions apply to retired LEOs? Good questions for attorneys in your state.
Just thought I would add another flavor to the discussion.

I am happy to report that Missouri is in full compliance with LEOSA as it applies to retired officers . . .

 

[TexasArmed]

Every time i read a forum on this subject makes me happy i live in Texas.
At Walmarts where i live they do not use the 30.06 or 30.07 sign. In Texas
that would certainly cost them business and if they really did want to prevent legal carry in their store they would use them. Once this past
month, when carry my Glock 45 cal and my S&W Revolver with speed loaders, a speed loader fell out of my pocket in the checkout line. The
cashier looked at me disapprovingly when she saw it, and when i bent
over to pick it up don't know if she saw the Glock. Anyway i said to her
that if the Government did not keep bringing in criminal illegals and
ISIS sleepers i would not have to carry so much artillery around.
So don't blame me, blame the government is my view. I will honor any
legal sign but i would change my shopping habits when i see a legal sign.

 

[triaxle]

I would and do C/C at some of the stores you are talking about , The bad guy wont care about their sign he will still come in and open fire . I just ask dont tell . If they see it which they never have and say or ask I would leave . If the cop pulls me over if he doesn't ask I DON 'T TELL . But I'am polite and keep hands on the wheel. Now no schools or court houses things like that .

 

[silentflyer]

I believe in Va. if it becomes an issue where the location is private property and ends up in court you can lose your CC permit. Of course the usual,schools, government buildings, etc goes it's a given and you can or will be charged and have a day in court.

 

[wsr]

Wish all you want, the law says the store is private property and the owners, subject to a few exceptions, can decide who comes in and who stays out. The Constitution and laws of the country make this decision, not a disgruntled gun owner. If the owner so decides, you can be trespassed off permanently and then it does become a matter of public record. Letter to the judge, a letter to the local cop shop, and a letter to you. If you object, send a letter to the owner. The owner can then decide if offending 3% or 4% of the population is worth offending the other 96%. On my property, my rights do supersede yours. You don't like it, stay off my property. I don't know you and with all the mall ninjas out there, why should I trust you with a gun on my property. If I don't know you , I probably won't hunt with you either for the same reasons. As an aside, I can forbid your gun and still carry mine, or allow my employees to carry. But I carry concealed and you won't know.

It's not as cut and dried as you make it out the law obviously recognises a difference between the rights of a individual vs a individual operating a bussiness...a bussiness owner can't refuse to do bussiness or ban access because of race where a individual can

We argue that shootings in gun free areas are rare and declining and are actually aberrations . Makes it hard to walk into a gun free hardware store and justify walking past the sign. Nowhere does the Constitution give you the right to ignore the rights of another. Surprisingly, the original gave the states the right to control guns as opposed to the Feds, and guns could be controlled.

Seems most mass shootings happen in gun free zones

The constitution doesn't "give" any rights...it recognises,affirms,protects etc but it doesn't give
I am a small business owner as well and understand your point of view. I control every aspect of my business as I see fit and make no appologies but when two rights collide I would say that the right to protect ones self outweighs ones property rights in a open to the public business

 

[dougb1946]

Assuming he has a valid CCW permit, even if a sign was posted, he would not be "breaking the law" in Missouri. Of course, other states have different laws in that regard.

He is committing a trespass the second he steps past a sign. While the law says he needs to be told verbally before legal action can start, he has committed the trespass-and like it or not, can be permanently banned from the property as a matter of public record. Get the letter from the cops, and it moves up to being a crime.
You are arguing your personal philosophies against the law. You can and will lose if push comes to shove. You maintain your right to self defense by not passing the sign. No one forces you to cross the line.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/trespass

Trespass is defined by the act of knowingly entering another person's property without permission. Such action is held to infringe upon a property owner's legal right to enjoy the benefits of ownership. Criminal charges, which range from violation to felony, may be brought against someone who interferes with another person's legal property rights. Criminal trespasses, depending on the venue of jurisdiction and case circumstances, fall under different subsets of law. When a trespass is carried out against another person, rather than against his/her property, the trespasser is likely to be charged with assault or battery. Actions violating the real property of another are handled as Trespasses to Land. Violations to personal property are handled as torts.
Under Tort Law, a property owner may bring a Civil Law suit against a trespasser in order to recover damages or receive compensatory relief for injury suffered as a direct result of a trespass. In a tort action, the plaintiff must prove that the
offender had, but knowingly violated, a legal duty to respect another person's right to property, which resulted in direct injury or loss to the plaintiff.

The gun sign clearly says you can enter, but not with a gun. Owners rule.

The Legal Rights of a Business to Ban a Person From Their Property | Chron.com

Property Owners' Rights
Private property is any property owned by private persons and not by the government or reserved for public use. Private property includes buildings and real estate as well as objects and intellectual property. People who own property have the right to manage it and control it. A store, for example, is private property. Offering merchandise for sale implies an invitation to enter, but the store owner is entitled to ban someone from coming in. The person could be a suspected shoplifter or a troublemaker, or he can be banned for any reason, as long as it is not based on bias against a federally protected class of people....

. A property owner can tell the individual in person, preferably with a witness, that he is banned, or notify him by certified letter with a copy sent to the local police department. Violating the banning order could result in a disorderly persons charge.....

In any such case where an individual is prevented from entering the property, the prohibition cannot be based on any of the classes protected by federal laws.

Bill of Rights controls government actions , not the small business man or even the big box. Gun carriers are not a protected class when it comes to entering private property.

Unless your state deliberately orders an exception, carrying past a sign is wrong. The laws I read provide an escape for the carrier if he misses a sign and requires a verbal warning. But the trespass starts when you pass the sign, and you are in the wrong legally.

I live in a small town, and if I start getting banned, I have to start shopping out of town. You do what you want, but you are wrong if you ignore the signs. Argue it any way you want, you are wrong when you carry past a no gun sign. And rude.

If you try arguing that you are obeying a higher law, you will discover that written law will prevail.

 

[keith44spl]

Sometimes..........It's like....





.

 

[TexasArmed]

Seems most mass shootings happen in gun free zones

The constitution doesn't "give" any rights...it recognises,affirms,protects etc but it doesn't give
I am a small business owner as well and understand your point of view. I control every aspect of my business as I see fit and make no appologies but when two rights collide I would say that the right to protect ones self outweighs ones property rights in a open to the public business

Just like some States regulate whether you can carry open or concealed, or not, some states like Texas regulate the type of
signs your business can or cannot post. Also some states like
Texas regulate which signs you can or cannot enforce. In Texas
if you do not want someone carrying that has a permit you have a choice, follow the State requirements for the sign. This past
year the State reduced the penalty to a misdemeanor
for entering a property that has a legal enforceable sign.
A sign in english won't cut it, either, since the sign regulations
require your sign to be in both English and Spanish to be
enforcable. As a matter of principle though when I see a no
gun sign even that is not enforceable i let my friends know and
encourage them not to shop there. I have no problem avoiding
spending my money there. In other States any old no gun sign will do. If i open a business I may not like the State regulating
which signs i may use, or whether the sign is enforcable but thats the way it is in my state. I will say i really like our Texas
laws.

 

[Donn]

You are correct! I still remember a comment made by a professor in a business law class I attended: "yes, you have rights...but only until they begin to infringe upon my rights." This is something many people fail to understand.

Precisely. Old saying, "Your rights end where my nose begins."

 

[Muss Muggins]

He is committing a trespass the second he steps past a sign. While the law says he needs to be told verbally before legal action can start, he has committed the trespass-and like it or not, can be permanently banned from the property as a matter of public record. Get the letter from the cops, and it moves up to being a crime.
You are arguing your personal philosophies against the law. You can and will lose if push comes to shove. You maintain your right to self defense by not passing the sign. No one forces you to cross the line.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/trespass


The gun sign clearly says you can enter, but not with a gun. Owners rule.

The Legal Rights of a Business to Ban a Person From Their Property | Chron.com

Bill of Rights controls government actions , not the small business man or even the big box. Gun carriers are not a protected class when it comes to entering private property.

Unless your state deliberately orders an exception, carrying past a sign is wrong. The laws I read provide an escape for the carrier if he misses a sign and requires a verbal warning. But the trespass starts when you pass the sign, and you are in the wrong legally.

I live in a small town, and if I start getting banned, I have to start shopping out of town. You do what you want, but you are wrong if you ignore the signs. Argue it any way you want, you are wrong when you carry past a no gun sign. And rude.

If you try arguing that you are obeying a higher law, you will discover that written law will prevail.

I'm not typing a big long response. I'll let the Missouri State Highway Patrol explain it to you. Page 4. I'll quote one passage:

"Carrying a concealed firearm in any location specified above is not a criminal act. However, you can be denied access to the premises or may be removed from the premises for doing so."

Missouri Concealed Weapons Law - MSHP

There's some other very good information in the brochure about Missouri's very friendly gun rights . . .

Drops mic.

 

[KYBHOTBS]

In Ga. unless it is a Federal building it is of course off limits. State building either have to have a Metal detector or someone searching you or a prison. If the building doesn't meet these requirements you are allowed to carry. You can be ask to leave and if you don't then you are trespassing which is a misdemeanor. It depends on your state laws. I'm 5' 10" 185 lbs and CC a 1911 Govt and no one ever knows I have it.

 

[TexasArmed]

I have never been to Missouri but if I were going to go to the trouble to
ask someone visiting me to disarm and leave their weapons in the parking lot, i would also search them, have them remove any pepper spray they
might be carrying, in sharp objects like scissors. Most all the items that
a Federal Building don't allow. And if some big shot from DC came to
visit me working for the census or whatever, i would also require them
to disarm, including the Secret Service, since they are not the police
and not on official business. I certainly don't trust them around me
carrying guns since all the reports are out there about drunk agents.

Life is so much simpler for us here in Texas.

 

[ladder13]

Your opinions?


Retired cop sues deputies over gun arrest | SanDiegoUnionTribune.com

 

[elkhunter77]

Target stores announced they do not want any firearms carried in their store. This also includes off duty police officers. I wrote and argued with Target and they would not back off of that. So now, none of us will ever go into a Target store again. I also tell everyone I know, including all the PD and SO cops out here and we will never shop there again.

I am pretty sure we have hundreds of folks who will never go in there again. I will keep spreading it to everyone as well, hopefully you will no longer shop there.