A Navy M1899/1902 in US Service....in WW2?

[GatorFarmer]

Even if empty, the Captain may have had to wear the ammunition pouch in order to be considered to have his proper uniform on.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

Do you remember whether those were right-side or left-side holsters? Left-side butt forward on the Sam Browne-style belt was widely used by US police in the earlier 20th century, but I'm curious whether the Army ever had holsters like that or went straight from the right side butt-forward (saber on the left) of the 1892 - 1903 holsters confirmed by murphydog to the right side forward draw 1911 holsters.

The 38 Revolvers were worn on the right side, just like in the picture.
The 1917 Revolvers were also worn that way.
Here's a 1917 with holsters.
The 1917 holsters look a lot like the earlier 38 holsters.
The gun in the pic looks more like a 38 to me than a 1917.

 

[ordnanceguy]

Wow, it's pretty clear to me that you guys like revolvers, locomotives and small mysteries. While I do not know the precise date and location of the photo I am pretty confident that it, and the others I show below, were taken early in WW2 in the USA.

Here are a few more evidently taken at the same time.

An Army Engineer acting as an engineer.

Note the Corps of Engineers insignia on the rail car.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

Now I'm saying 1917s!
That was the standard secondary Army sidearm.
Carried in the standard issue holster.

 

[Absalom]

Very photogenic. I'm more convinced than before that these guys strapped the gun belts on entirely for show to pose in these pictures. Which of course doesn't mean they weren't legitimate issue, except for the one in the first picture.

It's too bad we don't have the context. These photos were definitely taken for publication purposes.

 

[Muley Gil]

The military was woefully short of experienced officers at the start of WWII. My barber as a child was a family friend. He had been my grandfather's friend in 1919 when Pop-Pop joined the Army. When WW II started, Uncle Al was a 1st sergeant, but received a temporary commission and ended the war as a LT Colonel. Needless to say, he wasn't a spring chicken.

 

[Texas Star]

The gun in the photo with all of those holsters is a Colt M-1917,a military variant of the New Service model. No way it's a .38.

By WWII, some of those M-1917 holsters were being made for butt-rearward carry. Most were probably just carried over from WWI.

It'd be interesting to know how many 1917 .45 revolvers were actually in combat zones in WWII. Bill Jordan told me that he carried a S&W .45 while leading Marines to wipe out Japanese positions on Pacific islands. He also carried a Winchester M-12 shotgun instead of the .30 carbine one might expect for a USMC officer.

I've read that some M-1917 .45's were issued to Indian Air Force pilots. I suspect they got there after being sent to the UK during the 1940 emergency. I also suspect they were issued with Pattern 37 webbing holsters for the MK VI Webley .455.

Has anyone here got both a MK VI holster and a Colt or S&W M-1917 .45? Will the revolver fit the holster? The Webley has a six-inch barrel, the US .45's have 5.5-inchers. The Colt, in particular, has a pretty large frame, and I'm not certain it'd fit the Webley holster. But think it probably will.

Many New Service .455's were used in WWI, but officers bought their own revolvers and wore leather holsters probably sized for the gun used. I've definitely seen Canadian holsters sized for the S&W .455's with 6.5-inch barrels.

If you try the fit of a M-1917 in a canvas webbing holster, be sure that you have the holster for .455's. It is def. larger than that for the .38 revolvers, and has a different shape. It's more smoothly tapered than the .38 holsters, which have an abrupt squaring off below the handle of the gun.

 

[S&W ucla]

Judging from the look of the rail ties, that line had only recently been laid down. The wooden ties are not bedded in gravel and are laying on top of the ground.

 

[Drm50]

I saw a H&R, 38S&W, marked US Army at a gun show. I know
the guy that had it,very honest and knowledgable on WW2
Secondary Issue Arms. Anyway this gun was suppose to have
been issued to personnel on rail road around a government
shipping facility around the Point Pleasant, WVa. area.

 

[JSR III]

Lets see if this works. Click on photo two times to enlarge. Look like 1917's to me.

 

[.455Eley]

I would agree that that's probably a personally owned M&P in the first picture.

I wonder if the guys in the other pics are carrying half moon clips in the 1911 mag pouches in lieu of M1917 pouches?

The Captain could also be an officer brought up from the ranks, couldn't he? I think they call them 'Mustangs'.

 

[Absalom]

I saw a H&R, 38S&W, marked US Army at a gun show. I know
the guy that had it,very honest and knowledgable on WW2
Secondary Issue Arms. Anyway this gun was suppose to have
been issued to personnel on rail road around a government
shipping facility around the Point Pleasant, WVa. area.

H&R did indeed produce a revolver called the Defender chambered in .38 S&W during WW II. Introduced in 1941, it had a 4" barrel, and did apparently end up in the hands of military contractors, lend-lease recipients, as well as US military arsenals, both Army and Navy. So your scenario appears plausible, and possible.

 

[DWalt]

Do you remember whether those were right-side or left-side holsters? Left-side butt forward on the Sam Browne-style belt was widely used by US police in the earlier 20th century, but I'm curious whether the Army ever had holsters like that or went straight from the right side butt-forward (saber on the left) of the 1892 - 1903 holsters confirmed by murphydog to the right side forward draw 1911 holsters.

All holsters were worn on the right side, butt-forward in that picture. Unfortunately, I sold the picture (it was nicely framed) some years ago, otherwise I would have posted it.

 

[DWalt]

H&R did indeed produce a revolver called the Defender chambered in .38 S&W during WW II. Introduced in 1941, it had a 4" barrel, and did apparently end up in the hands of military contractors, lend-lease recipients, as well as US military arsenals, both Army and Navy. So your scenario appears plausible, and possible.

The H&R Defender name survived into the 1980s as a 5-shot top break revolver in .38 S&W with an odd bird's head-style brown plastic grip, made in both 2" and 4" barrel versions. I have one of the 4" versions from 1964, somewhat unusual as most were made in 2". A very well-made revolver with adjustable sights. I like it, especially the feel of the grip. I once knew a fellow who was a reserve deputy sheriff and he carried a Defender identical to mine as his sidearm. It wouldn't have been my choice, but adequate for a reserve deputy.

 

[glowe]

Lets see if this works. Click on photo two times to enlarge. Look 1917's to me.

I would agree with the gun, but I cannot figure what kind of cell phone he is holding?????????

 

[JSR III]

I would agree with the gun, but I cannot figure what kind of cell phone he is holding?????????

Just a little tip. If you enlarge the photo, and have a mouse with a wheel in the middle, you can enlarge stuff even further by holding down the "ctrl" key and moving the wheel. One way things enlarge and one way they shrink.

By enlarging the photo even more, I think that the cell phone is actually one of those note pads bound with a wire coil at the top. It's either that or a peanut butter and jelly half sandwich.

 

[mjr]

The H&R Defender name survived into the 1980s as a 5-shot top break revolver in .38 S&W with an odd bird's head-style brown plastic grip, ....

I believe that the WWII-era H&R Defender had a much more conventional grip than that nifty bird's head you describe, which (I think) was introduced in the early '60s to stimulate sales. I first saw this revolver in a review in Popular Mechanics around 1962 or 63. The reviewer thought it was "a very appealing design," or words to that effect.

You can see both grip designs by Googling "H&R Defender" and then selecting "Images."

BTW, the Defender was also offered in .22LR. I'll probably buy one of those if I ever run across one.

 

[mikepriwer]

There is no real reason to believe, or suspect, that the revolver is an Army or Navy
contract 1899 or 1902. Its merely a round-butt revolver, probably a .38 . The real
Model of 1902 was made all the way to WW2, and then under a different name
after the War. Ie, round-butt revolvers were made for a very long time. They did not
disappear when the square-butt model was introduced in 1905.

Mike Priwer

 

[THE PILGRIM]

There is no real reason to believe, or suspect, that the revolver is an Army or Navy
contract 1899 or 1902. Its merely a round-butt revolver, probably a .38 . The real
Model of 1902 was made all the way to WW2, and then under a different name
after the War. Ie, round-butt revolvers were made for a very long time. They did not
disappear when the square-butt model was introduced in 1905.

Good points! When troops bring their own personal weapons, all bets are off.
Like Patton with his Colts and Smith 357s.
I had a Wing Commander who carried a Colt 38 ACP.
But nobody carried at that time carried a 357.
Hold on a second. I did. My Model 19.

 

[DWalt]

I would agree with the gun, but I cannot figure what kind of cell phone he is holding?????????

Maybe he was a time traveler. Did anyone ever see that scene from one of the old Charlie Chaplin silent movies showing a guy walking down the street holding to his ear and talking into something which looks for all the world like a cell phone?