Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Indeed. And not to get too nit-picky, but didn't at least the 1899 Army and Navy contract revolvers come from the factory with a lanyard swivel installed? All the military 1899's I've seen had a factory swivel.
A Navy M1899/1902 in US Service....in WW2?
- Thread starter ordnanceguy
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Indeed. And not to get too nit-picky, but didn't at least the 1899 Army and Navy contract revolvers come from the factory with a lanyard swivel installed? All the military 1899's I've seen had a factory swivel.
These are probably propaganda/publicity shots. At the beginning of WWII the Army realized a need for medium heavy freight locomotives for Europe. An Army Corps of Engineer major designed the S-160 class of 2-8-0 Consolidation locomotives, which may explain the older guys. They were engineers and/or master mechanics who were brought to the project to get it done.
Several thousand were built with most exported to railways around the world. The locomotive with the number "1" on the boiler may have been the first one with appropriate publicity shots.
A fair number survive both here and in Europe. One of the last ones built, Number 610, is in storage at the Tennessee Valley Railway Museum awaiting overhaul.
More information may be found at
Rail Album - USATC S-160 2-8-0s Part 1
and at
2-8-0 "Consolidation" Locomotives in the USA
Several thousand were built with most exported to railways around the world. The locomotive with the number "1" on the boiler may have been the first one with appropriate publicity shots.
A fair number survive both here and in Europe. One of the last ones built, Number 610, is in storage at the Tennessee Valley Railway Museum awaiting overhaul.
More information may be found at
Rail Album - USATC S-160 2-8-0s Part 1
and at
2-8-0 "Consolidation" Locomotives in the USA
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opoefc
US Veteran
The military issued a lot of obsolete small arms in WW2. I have a Springfield Armory 1884 Trap Door .45-70 rifle issued to the Navy at their Great Lakes, Ill. training base, in WW2, probably to teach swabie recruits the Manual of Arms. I would guess the Captain in the 1st photo is a WW1 retread and probably is wearing the web belt he took home in 1918, and never removed the 45 ammo pouch. The revolver in the holster is not military, probably a personal weapon. The Lt. is wearing his "Pinks & Greens" - probably hoping to hit on some WACS at the Officer's Club or maybe an Army nurse. And for the education of those who read Lee's and Don's post, they are just jealous because I'm much taller, older, wiser and definitely better looking than either of them! Ed.
Soldiers carrying only a pistol
According to his autobiography, Charles Martin, a company sergeant-major in the Queen's Own Rifles of Canada usually carried no weapon except his pistol ("if I needed a rifle I could always pick one up from one of the wounded") and wore no helmet, preferring his camouflage net which he wore as a kind of veiled shroud over his head and shoulders. He had his fully loaded Smith & Wesson and six extra rounds.
Martin, Charles Cromwell (1996-07-25). "Battle Diary: From D-Day and Normandy to the Zuider Zee and VE" (Kindle Locations 1167-1170). Dundurn. Kindle Edition.
More info in his obit at: The Rifleman Online - The QOR of C
According to his autobiography, Charles Martin, a company sergeant-major in the Queen's Own Rifles of Canada usually carried no weapon except his pistol ("if I needed a rifle I could always pick one up from one of the wounded") and wore no helmet, preferring his camouflage net which he wore as a kind of veiled shroud over his head and shoulders. He had his fully loaded Smith & Wesson and six extra rounds.
Martin, Charles Cromwell (1996-07-25). "Battle Diary: From D-Day and Normandy to the Zuider Zee and VE" (Kindle Locations 1167-1170). Dundurn. Kindle Edition.
More info in his obit at: The Rifleman Online - The QOR of C
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Welcome to the Forum, evang.
Thanks for the picture.
Thanks for the picture.
One additional point as to when the army was still using the backwards holsters was in my Dad's Company-photo, taken in late 1943. The Officer of the Day is the only one wearing a helmet and going armed - with a 1917 revolver and butt-forward holster on the right side. The rest are in khaki with overseas caps. (photo was taken at Camp Campbell, KY Armor training base)
A few Army railroad items from my conversations with a WWII vet who was in one of the Railway Operating Battalions in the Philippines.
A few of his observations: Unlike most of the Army, the people in his railroad unit were actually "in the right place". Most were pre-War railroad men, as was he. His observation was that railroading was too specialized to try to do it with draftees. That may explain the age of the officers in the first photo.
He has some great stories: His normal weapon was an M1 carbine, but he told about how they were once carried some distance from the base to fix a rail car, but didn't carry their weapons with them since it was supposed to be a safe area and they were supposed to be picked up and returned within a few hours. However, the train to pick them up never arrived that day so they had to spend the night hiding from a Japanese patrol.
He said they were often shot at but not usually hit as they passed through not-fully pacified territory.
My favorite story was about the time he really came closest to being killed: He had been on a pass into Manila and was "drunk as a hootie-owl". He was riding up in the engine with the crew heading home and decided he needed to take a leak. He walked to the edge of the engine and then one step beyond the edge. He said he hit the jungle at about 30 mph and if he hadn't been so drunk it would have killed him.
"Mac" is a great guy to talk to about his WWII activities, and he can tell about them better than I can.
He had to walk about ten miles to get back to the base.
A few Army railroad items from my conversations with a WWII vet who was in one of the Railway Operating Battalions in the Philippines.
A few of his observations: Unlike most of the Army, the people in his railroad unit were actually "in the right place". Most were pre-War railroad men, as was he. His observation was that railroading was too specialized to try to do it with draftees. That may explain the age of the officers in the first photo.
He has some great stories: His normal weapon was an M1 carbine, but he told about how they were once carried some distance from the base to fix a rail car, but didn't carry their weapons with them since it was supposed to be a safe area and they were supposed to be picked up and returned within a few hours. However, the train to pick them up never arrived that day so they had to spend the night hiding from a Japanese patrol.
He said they were often shot at but not usually hit as they passed through not-fully pacified territory.
My favorite story was about the time he really came closest to being killed: He had been on a pass into Manila and was "drunk as a hootie-owl". He was riding up in the engine with the crew heading home and decided he needed to take a leak. He walked to the edge of the engine and then one step beyond the edge. He said he hit the jungle at about 30 mph and if he hadn't been so drunk it would have killed him.
"Mac" is a great guy to talk to about his WWII activities, and he can tell about them better than I can.
He had to walk about ten miles to get back to the base.
"I also think that the Transportation Corps would have been operating trains, rather than the Corps of Engineers."
True.
I asked Mac about how the Corps of Engineers fit into the train-operating business in the army and he said that the Corps did the original excavation and fill and track-laying and then turned it all over to the railway units for routine maintenance.
He said that there was a particular company within his larger unit that was responsible for track maintenance.
True.
I asked Mac about how the Corps of Engineers fit into the train-operating business in the army and he said that the Corps did the original excavation and fill and track-laying and then turned it all over to the railway units for routine maintenance.
He said that there was a particular company within his larger unit that was responsible for track maintenance.
Qmark
Member
For what it is worth. In the 80's at the Great Southwestern Gunshow. I talked briefly with a vendor selling guns he acquired after successfully bidding and winning an auction for a US Mail rail car. He found neatly tucked away a small cache of US Military weapons. There were two S&W revolvers, 1897 Winchester, 1917 Enfield and get this, a BAR!!. The guns as well as a spittoon were over stamped USPOD (US Post Office Dept).
He wisely turned the BAR over to police and claimed he had to threaten Sheriff Deputies with a law suit after they insisted he surrender all the weapons including a Knuckle Duster and the Winchester and Enfield's bayonets. He claimed he showed the cops an ad for the auction that indicated the contents of the rail cars were included in the sale. He claimed a few days later getting a visit from ATF and they left satisfied after he turned over to them the serial numbers and gave them permission to search the rail car.
The seller claimed his research indicated the weapons were originally issued to the Navy. The Marines were tasked at one time guarding the railroads along the southern USA/Mexico border.
Unfortunately at the time long before the S&W bug bit me. I didn't know a K from a N frame. All I can recall about the revolvers they were 38 caliber, had lanyard loops and were in US marked holsters.
He wisely turned the BAR over to police and claimed he had to threaten Sheriff Deputies with a law suit after they insisted he surrender all the weapons including a Knuckle Duster and the Winchester and Enfield's bayonets. He claimed he showed the cops an ad for the auction that indicated the contents of the rail cars were included in the sale. He claimed a few days later getting a visit from ATF and they left satisfied after he turned over to them the serial numbers and gave them permission to search the rail car.
The seller claimed his research indicated the weapons were originally issued to the Navy. The Marines were tasked at one time guarding the railroads along the southern USA/Mexico border.
Unfortunately at the time long before the S&W bug bit me. I didn't know a K from a N frame. All I can recall about the revolvers they were 38 caliber, had lanyard loops and were in US marked holsters.
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At one time, the Post Office was issued surplus 1917 Colts and S&Ws.
Yes, the Marine Corps was tasked with protecting the mail on two different occassions. The Post Office had Thompsons, but the Marines didn't!!! The Marines "borrowed" the Tommy guns and "forgot" to return them. They came in handy during the Banana Wars and WW II.
Yes, the Marine Corps was tasked with protecting the mail on two different occassions. The Post Office had Thompsons, but the Marines didn't!!! The Marines "borrowed" the Tommy guns and "forgot" to return them. They came in handy during the Banana Wars and WW II.
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I have seen several Navy issue 1902s, and none had a swivel from the factory; don't know about the 1899s, but I think ordanceguy is speculating the guy in the photo may have one of these. I'm betting neither of the men in the photo are around to ask any more
.Rail Road Troops
The uniforms indicate the pictures were taken in 1942 or before. The rank insignia on the shoulders went out in early '42. The Core of Engineers did rail roads until the Transportation Corps was created. In the early part or the war the Army was short of everything. WWI equipment and weapons were in common use. I have seen pictures of our first divisions arriving in UK with dish pan helmets and armed with M1917's. My father was armed with both Colt and Smith M1917 revolvers. Try hiding that without a holster in civies. Non-standard equipment was not uncommon. Colt Police Positives in both 2 and 4 inch were made without markings for special purpose use. Rail road units were called up in mass from civilian rail roads. Foremen became NCO's and more senior supervisors became officers. Additionally the Army had a much more tolerant view of people bringing there own side arms to the war.
The uniforms indicate the pictures were taken in 1942 or before. The rank insignia on the shoulders went out in early '42. The Core of Engineers did rail roads until the Transportation Corps was created. In the early part or the war the Army was short of everything. WWI equipment and weapons were in common use. I have seen pictures of our first divisions arriving in UK with dish pan helmets and armed with M1917's. My father was armed with both Colt and Smith M1917 revolvers. Try hiding that without a holster in civies. Non-standard equipment was not uncommon. Colt Police Positives in both 2 and 4 inch were made without markings for special purpose use. Rail road units were called up in mass from civilian rail roads. Foremen became NCO's and more senior supervisors became officers. Additionally the Army had a much more tolerant view of people bringing there own side arms to the war.
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