1902 1st Change "Square" Estimate?

[jebstuart]

Hello All,

Of the roughly 4,500 (I think I read that right) 1902 1st Change revolvers, can/has anyone venture(ed) an educated guess on how many might be “Square” or “Target” versions? Or, how many might be both "Square & Target" configured?

Thanks for any help,
Jeb

 

[glowe]

The Model 1902, 1st Change revolver was produced in numbers approaching 30,000 in 38 Special and 8300 in 32-20. Targets are not rare in either caliber. I am not sure what you are referring to with regards to "square"? Square notch in the rear sight or square butt?? Barrel length and caliber have an impact on numbers produced, so if you can add more information about the revolver, we can provide more details.

 

[Hondo44]

Jeb,

There are 28,645 1902 - 1st Change revolvers reportedly made in 38 Spl.

But I can't answer your question about how many sq butt targets there are.

That's presuming you mean square butt.

If so that opens up a can of worms because of the controversy over whether 1902 square butts are 1st changes or Model 1905s.

Some say square butts are all 1905s.

But some reason that because the square butt was introduced before the Model 1905 was introduced with its distinguishing 5th screw added, there are Model 1902 sq butts. This agrees with the SCSW 3rd edition.

 

[jebstuart]

Thank you HONDO44,

Yes, my SCSW say's that 1903 .38 square butt became available about SN 58,000 and so, would end at 62,449. That would equate to about 4,500 1903's that could be square butt grip frames. A guess might be that a small percentage of those 4,500 might be square butt. I also see that a target configuration was available in 1st and 2nd models (1899 & 1902's, etc.). Assuming that only a percentage of these exist, a 1903 Square Butt in Target configuration might be a small number. I have searched and have not been able to find one. Are you aware of one? I would like to learn what I can about them because I think I have one in route to me.

Thanks again,
Jeb

 

[cgt4570]

I don't know the production numbers but I just happen to have one of each. A round and a square 1902 1st change 4-screw (pre 5-screw), both with 6.5" barrels and target sights. The RB is 62195. The SB is 61266. Both have lots of finish wear but are mechanically sound with good bores. If I get time, I'll post a pic, but I'm sure everyone knows what those look like. The round butt has info written inside the grip from a senior WW1 officer from Seattle. I researched him and found quite a bit. He headed up a reservist shoreline battery in Washington State before being called up but by the time he made it to France, the war was over.

 

[DWalt]

Mike Priwer is the one to address your question, as it has been hashed and rehashed many times here. Some will say that there were never any square butt M1902s, only M1905s. And there are no Model 1903s in .38 Special or .32-20.

 

[jebstuart]

I don't know the production numbers but I just happen to have one of each. A round and a square 1902 1st change 4-screw (pre 5-screw), both with 6.5" barrels and target sights. The RB is 62195. The SB is 61266. Both have lots of finish wear but are mechanically sound with good bores. If I get time, I'll post a pic, but I'm sure everyone knows what those look like. The round butt has info written inside the grip from a senior WW1 officer from Seattle. I researched him and found quite a bit. He headed up a reservist shoreline battery in Washington State before being called up but by the time he made it to France, the war was over.

That's great - I hoped some would turn up. I would very much like to see pictures of your square butt, target revolver.

I think mine will have little finish as well but the best info. I could glean was that fit & function was excellent & 5" barrel.

From what I can understand, there were less than 4,500 made in 1904 that could be 4-screw & square butt configuration. Fewer still could be target models and attrition must have taken some number over the past 111 years. I think they must not be common.

 

[mikepriwer]

As DWalt notes, the discussion should be about 1902's and 1905's, and not about 1903's . The model of 1903 is an I-frame revolvers, chambered in 32 long.

The hashing and rehashing that DWalt refers to, is the result of a new model, the
Model of 1905, being introduced towards the end of the 1902 1st change. The 1902 has
a round butt; the 1905 has a square butt. Otherwise, they are identical. This means
that a 1902 1st change is identical to a 1905 (no-change), and from a nomenclature
perspective, this is a large problem, for two different models in the same serial
number series.

Neal & Jinks tried to get around this problem, but their end result necessitated doing
away with the model of 1902 at serial number 62450. This is a fatal flaw with the
Neal & Jinks methodology, because the 1902 does not go away. It is in the catalogs
and all-model circulars at least into the 1970's, and turns out to be the survivor of
the two models, to this day. The square butt model was discontinued maybe 10
or more years ago.

In all fairness, there is no good solution to this problem, and that is to be expected,
because the engineering-change methodology, as devised by Walter Roper, was
never intended to deal with models. It was only intended to deal with serial numbers.
Because of what I describe above, it can't be made to work for our collector purposes,
that want to talk about models.

Regarding the number of target revolvers, its not known how many round-butt vs square
butt revolvers with target sights were made. In fact, its not known how many of either
were made. Limiting the discussion to 4-screw frames, the serial number range for
all round-butts is 62449, which includes the model of 1899. The range for square butts
is 58000 to 62449; remember that they are both sharing the same serial number series.

In a presentation I made at the S&WCA meeting in Las Vegas, I put together a methodology
to estimate the number of targets that were made. I concluded that, probably, about 10%
of the production were targets, and maybe half of those still exist today.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[handejector]

Pics of one are here-
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...ll-38-targets-pic-heavy.html?highlight=mother

 

[handejector]

This is a fatal flaw with the
Neal & Jinks methodology, because the 1902 does not go away. It is in the catalogs
and all-model circulars at least into the 1970's, and turns out to be the survivor of
the two models, to this day.

You keep saying that, but never show a pic of those catalogs and AMCs using the terms 1902 and 1905.

Beginning with Catalod D in 1917, MY catalogs and AMCs show M&Ps with square butts and round butts.
Later, AMCs show Model 10s with square butts and round butts.
From 1917 on, I can't seem to make my paper mention 1902 or 1905 models. I must have stupid paper.
Maybe I'm just confused by your adamant position that the catalog designations must be used when you ignore the evolution of the designation in later paper.

 

[jebstuart]

mikepriwer,
I just now understand the balance of your posting. By your reconing, of the estimated 4,500 - 4 screw (58000 - 62449) revolvers, maybe 10% were target & half those survive. That would estimate 225 targets still exist. The unknown being, how many were square or round butts? Is that the proper equation?
Jeb

 

[cgt4570]

Pics as promised (quick cell pics, sorry). The RB has period round-to-square adapter grips. (ignore the 1903 no change .32 4" target)
BTW, I don't have an opinion about what to call the square butts made prior to Jan 1, 1905. I don't have a dog in that race.

The RB is 62195. The SB is 61266.

 

[jebstuart]

ctg4570,
Thanks for the pictures. Those are very nice. I think your square grip frame has much more finish than mine will & I think the front sight blade is a little different. I'll post a pic as soon as I can.
Thanks again,
Jeb

 

[rct269]

I also have one of each.The round butt (#21898) letters as .38 M&P Second Model Target, shipped August 8, 1902. The square butt (#59794) letters as .38 M&P Model of 1902 First Change Target, shipped February 26, 1906. Both are four screw actions. The square butt was delivered to a S&W Foreman shown in the shipping records as Edward H. Burton. Given no trace of such a person can be found, but an Edward H. Burt is identified in a photo of company foremen of the period, Jinks speculates he is the recipient---and further speculates he may have had a hand in the design of the square butt.

While I understand the 1902/1905 controversy/reasoning, I wonder if the respective actions (4 screw/5 screw) shouldn't be the determining factor in what's what-------rather than round butt/square butt cataloged options. That said, these guns are what they are, and I reckon folks can call them whatever they like. When I discussed this situation with Jinks, he as much as said if I wanted a letter calling the square butt gun a "pre 5 screw 4 screw Model of 1905", I could have it----so, "------you pays your money and you takes your pick."

And by the by, if/when you decide to take one of these apart for whatever reason, Mike Priwer has devised a methodology (and "special tool") that beats Chicoine's all to hell----and back (!!)----makes your life real easy.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[mikepriwer]

Thank you for making my point.

Lee

You are correct - the names of the models do change.

On the one hand, however, this probably needs to be taken up with the historian. The naming convention used in the factory letters always contains "Model of 1905" after 1917. For example, the following three guns are referred to as ".38 Military and Police Model of 1905 4th change".
s/n 3938XX shipped 12/6/1921
s/n 541274 shipped 4/15/1927
s/n 643922 shipped 3/8/1933

On the other hand, I was using 1902 and 1905 to refer to the two different models; the round butt model and the square butt model. Even though the factory does change the names (the evolution of the designations), its more convenient to stick to one naming convention when writing about this matter. From this point forward, I will try to clarify this name change.

I do notice that while you find fault with the naming of the models, you do not challenge the notion that there were two models. This is critical to my argument, and you do, therefore, make my point about the existence of two models. Thank you for that.

Let me add that I do have, in the pictures and albums area, a folder called "MLP11 1902 vs 1905". This contains a lot of images of these two models over a long range of factory catalogs and All Model Circulars. This folder is available for anyone to peruse.

In some of the images ( I think 1940 is one of them ) there is a sentence, in small italics, for the round butt model, stating "This model is not made with adjustable target sights.". This notation is in the All Model Circular (note the word 'Model' ), and the notation itself contains the word 'model'.

Naming conventions aside, this is precisely my point: these two revolvers are two different models; one is not an option of the other. And yet, the Neal & Jinks methodology does classifies everything as a model of 1905 after serial number 62450.

In some sense, its as though the factory came out with the following announcement:
"Boy oh boy - have we got some important news for you. First of all, in early 1905, we are introducing a new option to the model of 1902. It can be ordered with a square butt. Second, and even more important, after about 4000 serial numbers, we are changing the name of the Model of 1902 to the Model of 1905, and are doing away with the Model of 1902." Needless to say, they did not make this proclamation.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[mikepriwer]

jebstuart

Yes - that is the right conclusion. All we can do is estimate the production and the survival rate. The only hard evidence we have is the database files that Joe Miller put together many years ago, and they are the survivors. Also, his files were built mostly from S&WCA members, and not the general public at large. I would scan the auction
catalogs regularly, as well as dealer offerings, and would contribute additional serial numbers whenever they showed up.

By the way, I do have a small list of 4-screw 1905 targets, in the serial number range of 58000 to 62449 . I think
there is about 12 to 15 guns in the list. Again, these are survivors.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[jebstuart]

mikepriwer,

Thank you for the information. I would be happy to add mine to your list when I have it, if you are still maintaining it.

I will surely want to disassemble the revolver when I receive it, for cleaning, oiling & plain old ogling. It sounds as though the process is quite different from 5 screw frames because of the V trigger return spring. I'm also not versed with the spring loaded cylinder crane plunger. I have felt this plunger in action - but have never seen one from the inside. This strikes me as an exceptional feature and I wonder why they didn’t retain it (cost cutting)? If you could guide me to the best place to learn these processes, I would be grateful indeed. The earliest S&W I have disassembled is a 1911 vintage 1905 3rd.

As for the naming convention of these revolvers, do I understand these points of view to say that you should choose either to use engineers and engineering changes (i.e., 4 screw, 5 screw, etc.) and existing reference material as a guideline to identification, or sales departments, sales brochures and salesmen as your standard? Did not the 5th screw end the 1902 model? If the S&W sales and executive arms rightly perceived that the “Model 1902” had generated a modicum of public familiarity and trust, would they not cling to the model number/appearance as a driver of sales, with little regard to the engineering department and its almost transparent engineering changes? I’m trying to understand the various positions.

Thanks again,
Jeb

 

[mikepriwer]

Jeb

When you get the gun, please send me the serial number, and a description of the
gun; butt configuration, barrel length, finish, etc.

As to the 5th frame screw ending the 1902(round butt), the answer is no. If it did,
why would the round-butt model be in the catalogs and All Model Circulars for at least
another 50 to 60 years ? Look at the images in my folder - you can use this link:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/members/mikepriwer-albums-mlp11-1902-vs-1905-a.html

There are three pages total. Each image of catalog pages has a title that is the date
of the catalog. Click on an image to enlarge it.

As to the early lockwork, there is no V-shaped spring in it. It has two separate flat
leaf springs. The large one drives the hammer; the smaller one is the trigger rebound
mechanism spring. The mechanism is a pair of levers, one inside the other. A piece of
it goes into the rear end of the trigger, and presses on that part of the trigger. That
causes the trigger to return.

If you have any questions or problems about dis-assembly, send me a note.

Regards, Mike Priwer [email protected]

 

[glowe]

You keep saying that, but never show a pic of those catalogs and AMCs using the terms 1902 and 1905.

Lee, I have a 1914 catalog identifying both models. Also, a 1906 price list shows Model 1902 for $15 and a Model 1905 w/square handle for $16.00 in both 32 WCF and 38 Special.

 

[Hondo44]

Jeb,

The cylinder hold open device or detent was introduced on the very 1st hand ejector, the ".32 HE Model 1896, 1st Model". After the ".32 Hand Ejector Model 1903, 2nd Model" it was dropped from the ‘I’ frames but was used and continued in pre WW I K frames beginning on the 38 M&P Model of 1902, (last used on the 1902-1st change), and used in all pre WWI, pre WW II, and some post war Transitional N frame HEs. After the yoke detent was dropped in the K frames, I don't think it was ever used again in the K frame, but I don't have any, so I could be wrong. An example of old world panache Smith was known for that we won't ever see again.

Plunger shown here which has a spring underneath it.

When the yoke is pulled from the frame, use care or the plunger and spring can be launched across the room never to be seen again. Often because of this, the parts are missing. But check the hole in the yoke for stuck or rusted parts.