how reliable is a striker fired pistol in reguards to AD's?

[cmort666]

How many shootings you been in?

I haven't been in any.

I try to learn from other people's mistakes BEFORE emergencies arise.

There's always an excuse for doing the wrong thing.

Doing the right thing is always easier in the end.

Of course I don't have qualified immunity, a union backing me to the hilt and a bottomless pot of other people's money.

If I shoot the wrong person because I thought the fundamentals of firearm safety don't apply to me, I don't get excuses from Sean Hannity. I get homeless... if I'm lucky.

If I have my finger on the trigger when I shouldn't, eventually I'll shoot myself or somebody else who doesn't need shooting. That'll happen with a 3lb. trigger or a trigger that a mountain gorilla couldn't squeeze. That being the case, I'll stick with the fundamentals of firearms safety and a trigger that allows me to hit what I'm shooting at.

 

[kbm6893]

I haven't been in any.

I try to learn from other people's mistakes BEFORE emergencies arise.

There's always an excuse for doing the wrong thing.

Doing the right thing is always easier in the end.

Of course I don't have qualified immunity, a union backing me to the hilt and a bottomless pot of other people's money.

If I shoot the wrong person because I thought the fundamentals of firearm safety don't apply to me, I don't get excuses from Sean Hannity. I get homeless... if I'm lucky.

If I have my finger on the trigger when I shouldn't, eventually I'll shoot myself or somebody else who doesn't need shooting. That'll happen with a 3lb. trigger or a trigger that a mountain gorilla couldn't squeeze. That being the case, I'll stick with the fundamentals of firearms safety and a trigger that allows me to hit what I'm shooting at.

Learning from mistakes? Shooting at targets and quick drawing in the mirror doesn't train you to respond to real threats. I've never shot anybody either, thank God. But plenty of "oh ****" moments. And a heavier trigger probably prevented shooting when I didn't need to.

How far you planning on shooting that attacker in the unlikely event you ever are called to use your weapon? Average shooting is about 7 feet. But I'll be generous and call it 5 yards (15 feet). You think your heavier trigger is gonna make a difference in hitting a torso at that distance?

The real benefits outweigh the fantasy drawbacks.

 

[cmort666]

Learning from mistakes? Shooting at targets and quick drawing in the mirror doesn't train you to respond to real threats.

I shoot at targets. What do you shoot at?

If you quick draw in the mirror, I'll leave you to that. Have fun.

There's no excuse for having your finger on the trigger when you shouldn't. It doesn't matter if it's at seven yards or seven hundred, or if the trigger pull is 3lb.s or 30lb.s.

There are a million excuses for unsafe gun handling. I'm sure that Akai Gurley's family has heard all of them.

 

[Donn]

This subject is a well traveled road. It all boils down to the hammer vs striker debate. I have both, like both. That said, I carry either an M&P Shield or Model 49 snubby. Both take a deliberate trigger pull to discharge. I've never had a ND with my M&P and don't expect to.

 

[JCFindley]

I have been in three "real world" situations where I used a handgun. Not once did my finger go into the trigger guard until the weapon was on target. No, I never had to pull it and I am happy about that.

7 feet was WAY beyond the distance for two of those incidents. 7 inches was probably too far on one. When one of three bubbas grabs you through an open car window so he can pull you out and he and his two friends can work you over with the baseball bat in one of their hands 7 feet would seem like a luxury. You do get quite an adrenaline dump and you revert to your training. If that training is to keep your finger off the trigger you will keep your finger off the trigger.

21 years of being a military pilot I have had more than my fair share of Oh S$@T moments. Be it with an airplane or a gun, IF you have trained properly you will revert to that training in those moments. Personally, it always hits me later that ****, I almost died today. In the moment, you do as you train assuming you train realistically.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Then don't use one.

Exactly.

When a man says he's not competent or otherwise a danger to himself and others with less than a 12lb NYPD issue trigger.... I'm inclined to believe him.

 

[cmort666]

Exactly.

When a man says he's not competent or otherwise a danger to himself and others with less than a 12lb NYPD issue trigger.... I'm inclined to believe him.

I don't tell people not to use such things.

I just tell them to be candid about the REASON they use them.

Anybody who thinks that gadgets and googaws will allow them to get away with doing foolish and dangerous things, I say they may well... until they don't.

If you shoot an innocent person because you stubbornly insist upon doing stupid and dangerous things, the victim (or his survivors) is going to want his pound of flesh. And he'll get it too, one way or another.

 

[kbm6893]

For self defense purposes, a 9 pound trigger is going to be just as effective as a 5 pound trigger. You won't even notice the difference. Self defense shootings are in your face close. Running gun battles over distance happen in movies, not to Joe Sixpack on his way to pick up milk.

Is a heavier trigger going to be as accurate as a lighter one? First of all, thst depends on the shooter. But in the hands of a capable shooter, a lighter trigger is more accurate. But how more? 1.5" better at 15 yards? How much better at 2 feet? None.

And assuming due to your training that you will NEVER make a mistake as you handle a weapon has gotten more people into trouble than a NY trigger on a Glock.

And stop bringing up Akai Gurley. Incidents like that are extremely rare. The NYPD is one of the most restrained police departments in the country in the use of deadly force. Less than 1/10 of 1% fire their weapons at all, and nearly all of those (about 25 shootings a year) are good shootings. Gurley was what, 3 years ago?

Yes, you should never put your finger on a trigger until it's time to fire. But people do. Just like they have car accidents. We don't know how many ND's have been avoided due to a heavier trigger because they don't happen, so they don't get reported.

The whole "heavy trigger" is heavily overblown anyway. I always qualified expert with my NYPD Glock 19. I bought a 26 after I retired and the trigger was lighter, but I shot the gun side by side just as effectively as my 19.

 

[cmort666]

And stop bringing up Akai Gurley.

NO.

It's proof of the inherent foolishness of the "New York trigger".

If you're stupid and reckless (and dishonest after the fact), the trigger weight matters not one whit.

The guy who shot Gurley probably could have done so with a 40lb. trigger pull.

Incidents like that are extremely rare.

I'm sure they told his family that.

Do you think they were impressed by that "reasoning"?

Better training and commonsense on the range than excuse making at a press conference... and a funeral.

 

[Smoke]

Glock Gadget


[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dgzRXi_0Guw[/ame]

 

[malph]

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that striker-fired guns are just as safe as other types, but one's margin for error is less. Follow the tips already mentioned and pay attention to what you're doing and you should be fine.

My own preference is for a heavier, longer trigger pull on a self defense gun because of the greater margin for error. When I had a Glock 23 I used the NY1/"-" connector combo that resulted in a trigger pull that was equivalent to the stock weight but with resistance along the full trigger travel.


There was a related thread with some relevant info that might be helpful to you. Here's the link: http://smith-wessonforum.com/concea...inherrently-less-safe-what-makes-them-so.html

CP said it about as well as can be said. The striker fired guns are just as mechanically safe as hammer fired guns. I agree with him there is less margin for error though. Before i get scortched about keeping ones finger off the trigger until ready to fire....blah balh...i will say i agree with that...but...a trigger that moves a 1/4 inch with 4-5 pounds of preassure to fire is less forgiving of any kind of mistake than a 10-12 pound trigger with a longer pull.

Its all about finding the right balance of shootability and saftey/confidence in the gun you shoot and carry. Too heavy a pull and you may not be able to hit well. To lite and you may get beyond where you are comfortable from a gun handling/safety standpoint.

As a civilian you have to find where in that spectrum you are comfortable.

 

[JCFindley]

For self defense purposes, a 9 pound trigger is going to be just as effective as a 5 pound trigger. You won't even notice the difference. Self defense shootings are in your face close. Running gun battles over distance happen in movies, not to Joe Sixpack on his way to pick up milk.

Is a heavier trigger going to be as accurate as a lighter one? First of all, thst depends on the shooter. But in the hands of a capable shooter, a lighter trigger is more accurate. But how more? 1.5" better at 15 yards? How much better at 2 feet? None.

I don't think anyone here is arguing that a three pound trigger pull is a huge advantage at realistic SD ranges.

What they are saying, or at least what I am saying is that I wouldn't and don't rely on a heavier trigger pull to avoid an ND. I believe the double action trigger pull on my 686 is ~12.5 pounds. I train with that using double action and shoot well enough to qualify expert. (Well enough as I have never been required to qual with a revolver.) Now, my M&P has around a 4 pound trigger pull. The HK I did have to Qual on was about the same. I have never had an ND on any firearm regardless of trigger pull.

Can trigger pull make your gun "safer." I suppose it could if you have the bad habit of putting your finger on the trigger before you are on target and ready and willing to engage your target. I would prefer to rely on proper training for a higher level of safety though. Keep your finger off the trigger and trigger pull weight does not matter at all.

And, I will take this moment to add a gratuitous image of my M&P.

 

[ContinentalOp]

I agree that keeping your finger off the trigger until you're going to shoot is the best way to stay safe, regardless of trigger weight. But during the high stress of a self defense encounter things can happen that you neither intended to do nor remember doing afterwards.

1911: Unsuitable for Self-Defense? - The Truth About Guns

I cam across details of a law enforcement study that demonstrated that under high levels of stress, the trigger finger often subconsciously travels to the trigger to "confirm its position." Lt. Dave Spaulding, of the Montgomery County, Ohio Sheriff's Office, observed that 632 out of 674 officers tested periodically placed their fingers in the trigger guard during FATS training. This is astounding—94% of the trained police officers teste placed their finger on the trigger under stress! This number included many highly-skilled and motivated officers. The officer that he observed doing thse "trigger searches had no memory of doing so . . .

This is why I like a little extra insurance with regard to trigger pull weight. But like malph said, you have to find that balance that works for you. If my gun really did have a 40+ lb trigger pull, that would be unacceptable, but I'm fine with the typical DA pull.

 

[cmort666]

This is why I like a little extra insurance with regard to trigger pull weight. But like malph said, you have to find that balance that works for you. If my gun really did have a 40+ lb trigger pull, that would be unacceptable, but I'm fine with the typical DA pull.

But if you're reckless enough, even that 40lb. pull won't keep you from shooting an innocent person.

What we're seeing from SOME people is a defiant attitude that grossly unsafe behavior is somehow IMPOSSIBLE to avoid. It's like claiming that EVERY car should have a breathalyzer interlock to avoid drunk driving, when the obvious answer is to simply not get drunk and drive, rather than inconvenience EVERYBODY and make cars more expensive.

But during the high stress of a self defense encounter things can happen that you neither intended to do nor remember doing afterwards.

Taken far enough, that's a justification not for giving the police ridiculously heavy triggers, but TAKING their guns away.

With all of the people decrying a lack of personal responsibility these days, it's odd to see somebody treating IRRESPONSIBILITY by supposedly trained public servants as some sort of innate quality. If that's REALLY the case, then perhaps a 19th century governor of NY was correct, and they (like the militia in his statement) should be disarmed and given clubs.

 

[kbm6893]

I don't think anyone here is arguing that a three pound trigger pull is a huge advantage at realistic SD ranges.

What they are saying, or at least what I am saying is that I wouldn't and don't rely on a heavier trigger pull to avoid an ND. I believe the double action trigger pull on my 686 is ~12.5 pounds. I train with that using double action and shoot well enough to qualify expert. (Well enough as I have never been required to qual with a revolver.) Now, my M&P has around a 4 pound trigger pull. The HK I did have to Qual on was about the same. I have never had an ND on any firearm regardless of trigger pull.

Can trigger pull make your gun "safer." I suppose it could if you have the bad habit of putting your finger on the trigger before you are on target and ready and willing to engage your target. I would prefer to rely on proper training for a higher level of safety though. Keep your finger off the trigger and trigger pull weight does not matter at all.

And, I will take this moment to add a gratuitous image of my M&P.

Nobody is relying on a heavier trigger to negate the possibility of an ND. But they DO reduce the possibility of them.

And Cmort, you're so confident that you won't have an nd, that you lightened the already light trigger on your Glock to 3.5 pounds. So if they offered a 1.5 pound trigger, would you use it? How about the same force needed to pull the trigger as to flick a light switch? I mean, yo are so highly trained that it will never happen to you, right?

And the Gurley case has so much more to it than bad trigger control. The cop who shot Gurley graduated with a class of 1500 others. Tens of thousands of others came before him and after him who DONT let errant shots go. This wasn't a training issue. It was an issue of a scared cop, who quite frankly had reason to be nervous in that project stairwell, as he stepped over shell casings and crack vials, who had his gun out, and tons of cops before and since have done. I know I have. In that very same stairwell,'in fact. I bet his finger wasn't on that trigger until that door swung open in a dark stairwell. I believe he put his finger on the trigger and fired without even thinking about it. And yeah, he tried to cover it up. He had no idea he had hit anybody. The bullet ricocheted twice before hitting Gurley. Gurley ducked back into the hallway below. So this rookie cop, still on probation and realizing he would be fired, tried to cover up his accidental discharge. He is human, after all.

The Gurley incident is not indicative of some problem with training. The cop went against his training, because he is human and screwed up. And while I agree that the heavy trigger didn't help HIM, it surely reduces others. Because I can remember quite a few times when my finger was on the trigger. Contrary to belief, there ARE times you have made the decision to shoot, but in thst split second you don't.

 

[ContinentalOp]

But if you're reckless enough, even that 40lb. pull won't keep you from shooting an innocent person.

You're right, but you're ignoring what I and others here are saying. Having a heavier trigger pull will not prevent someone doing something reckless/stupid from shooting an innocent person, but that heavier trigger will give someone a larger margin for error. I'm going to say this again. A HEAVIER TRIGGER WILL GIVE SOMEONE A LARGER MARGIN FOR ERROR.

What we're seeing from SOME people is a defiant attitude that grossly unsafe behavior is somehow IMPOSSIBLE to avoid. It's like claiming that EVERY car should have a breathalyzer interlock to avoid drunk driving, when the obvious answer is to simply not get drunk and drive, rather than inconvenience EVERYBODY and make cars more expensive.

Taken far enough, that's a justification not for giving the police ridiculously heavy triggers, but TAKING their guns away.

With all of the people decrying a lack of personal responsibility these days, it's odd to see somebody treating IRRESPONSIBILITY by supposedly trained public servants as some sort of innate quality. If that's REALLY the case, then perhaps a 19th century governor of NY was correct, and they (like the militia in his statement) should be disarmed and given clubs.

Wow. Just, wow. I'm not going to bother responding to that strawman argument. I'm done.

 

[kbm6893]

You're right, but you're ignoring what I and others here are saying. Having a heavier trigger pull will not prevent someone doing something reckless/stupid from shooting an innocent person, but that heavier trigger will give someone a larger margin for error. I'm going to say this again. A HEAVIER TRIGGER WILL GIVE SOMEONE A LARGER MARGIN FOR ERROR.



Wow. Just, wow. I'm not going to bother responding to that strawman argument. I'm done.

But according to Cmort, the heavier trigger will be a detriment to him in a self defense shooting, because every shot he fires (although he has never been in a shooting), will be his to take responsibility for, so he wants the most laser accurate weapon he can have. Which is great, but laser accuracy means nothing in a real shooting, and quite frankly, sights don't mean much, either. Human instinct is point and shoot, and at self defense ranges, that's more than enough.

He also believes he is so supremely trained, that he can have a feather light trigger and not have to worry about ND's.

As for taking responsibility, lets see how that fares in the unlikely event of a shooting when the DA finds out he installed a much lighter trigger on his Glock. Because in a real shooting when you are scared to death, you're gonna be yanking on that trigger, and that super light trigger will make it even more likely that you will hit somebody else.

 

[cmort666]

Nobody is relying on a heavier trigger to negate the possibility of an ND. But they DO reduce the possibility of them.

Unfortunately, it sounds like they are.

And Cmort, you're so confident that you won't have an nd, that you lightened the already light trigger on your Glock to 3.5 pounds. So if they offered a 1.5 pound trigger, would you use it?

"Already 'light'"? In what alternate universe?

3.5lb.s is just fine.

If 12lb.s, why not 20lb.s? If you're as close as you say, what real difference will it make? Why not issue them 7.62mm Nagant revolvers converted to DAO? I hear those have a REALLY "safe" trigger pull.

As far as the killing of Akai Gurley goes, you made my case for me.

You claim that the guy who killed him "went against his training", but why do you want the "NY trigger" AT ALL... I'm hearing for when people... GO AGAINST THEIR TRAINING... that is unless they're not actually being trained to keep their fingers off the trigger.

I'm never going to buy "They're highly trained... so they need a ridiculous trigger for when they IGNORE their training."

 

[cmort666]

He also believes he is so supremely trained, that he can have a feather light trigger and not have to worry about ND's.

If I insisted upon having my finger on the trigger when not firing, contrary to ALL reason and common sense, I should expect NDs. That's why I don't do that.

You can argue for a lousy trigger to allow you to be unsafe until you're blue in the face. It'll always be false.

The Gurley family knows that gimmicks are no substitute for personal responsibility.

 

[kbm6893]

3.5 pounds is a light trigger. Unless it's a competition gun, it is totally unnecessary and has zero benefit.

As his been said many times, ND's thst DONT happen don't get reported, because they didn't happen. If the NY trigger wasn't on many police guns, ND's would be higher. Training issue? Sure. But shooting at paper or at a FATS screen isn't the real world.

So what if the force needed to pull your Glock trigger was the same as the force needed to press the screen on your phone to open an app? You'd be ok with that? I mean, you have trained yourself to not touch a trigger until you have made the decision to shoot, although in the real world you won't have any time to make any conscious decisions. You'll just draw and pull.