how reliable is a striker fired pistol in reguards to AD's?

[cmort666]

The fact that you are comparing DA revolver and glock triggers shows that you really don't know what you are talking about
A DA trigger has a long trigger pull leading to a smooth pull, striker guns have a very short trigger when the weight is heavy it leads to more of a jerk...that's just the nature of it...it can be managed but falls apart outside of quasi shooting quals on stationary paper targets with time limits that really aren't
I am no fan of striker guns especially for novices but a heavy pull as a safety feature is ridiculous...it's a hardware fix to a software problem

With the right trigger, you can shoot a Glock 17 or Glock 22 in the centerfire stage of an NRA 2700 and do REASONABLY well, once you learn the trigger.

The odds of you doing it with an "NY trigger"? Slim to none.

A lot of the special pleading about how neither the shooter nor the firearm need to be particularly accurate (nor indeed SAFE) is really just excuse making.

It's akin to the anti-gunners' claims that nobody should own a "sniper rifle" with a scope because it's "TOO accurate", or that practicing with your firearm "TOO much" means you're "planning to kill somebody".

As with most things, poor planning => low standards => poor performance.

Where things diverge of course is if you're a lousy insurance salesman, you get fired and get another job. If you're a citizen (without qualified immunity) and a lousy shot, the wrong person dies, and you live under a bridge... if you're lucky.

 

[cmort666]

I carried sidearms for a living for 24 years. The only one that had a thumb safety was the M1911s I carried in the Army. I carried S&W and Ruger revolvers, Glocks, and Sig Sauers...none had external safeties. I never had an unintentional discharge with any of them. Why? Because we trained extensively and I always used appropriate carry gear.

If you are under the impression that your pistol won't accidentally discharge because it has a safety, you have succumbed to a false sense of security. Only adherence to the 4 Firearm Safety Rules will keep you safe no matter what piece you carry.

The ONLY ND I have ever had was with an M1911, and PRECISELY because I didn't observe the 4 Firearm Safety Rules.

And not only did it have a safety, I started off with an empty chamber.

 

[kbm6893]

Interesting...

• Ludicrously heavy trigger = "evidence that the gun couldn't have just gone off, but rather was deliberately pulled".
• "Lighter than standard pull" = "evidence that the gun couldn't have just gone off, but rather was deliberately pulled".

And how big is the black?

I don't derive a LOT of lessons from entertainment movies, but every so often they DO contain a kernel of truth:

"Aim small, miss small" ...unless there aren't any personal consequences for doing otherwise and you find a desire not to harm innocent third parties... "creepy".


So, you're going to justify inadequate training with OTHER inadequate training?

I've said it before, "Insh Allah!" is a really bad life strategy... ESPECIALLY when loaded firearms are involved.


Anybody who would equate a ludicrously heavy "NY trigger" on a Glock with the double action on a K or N frame S&W revolver pretty obviously doesn't know much about either...

Aim small, miss small. Another mall ninja favorite.

Your constant Labeling of the NY trigger as ludicrously heavy that 5' women can effectively use just means you can't. A competent shooter should be able to effectively use any weapon available to the civilian market.

And the DA trigger weight on my revolvers is about 12 pounds. The Glock NY trigger is about 12 pounds. Same weight. If you can't hit the side of the barn from inside the barn with a NY trigger or the DAO trigger on your friends Beretta 96, blame the Indian, not the arrow.

Heavier triggers REDUCE the likelihood of an ND. They don't completely wipe them out. How big is the black? It's a standard police torso sized target with 5 circles, from 7 to the X ring. my shots were always in the 9 and 10 rings. Sometimes 8 ring at 25 yards. 7 yards they were in the X. Scored 95 or better on every qual from 25, 15, and 7 yards. The max distance for any police shooting and certainly civilian defense shooting.

Now go ahead and refute that with "tell that to Akai Gurley's family". You know that's not proof of your position, but it's all you have to say.

Enjoy your 3.5 pound trigger. Maybe you'll get lucky and Glock will come out with a 1/4 pound trigger. Make you even MORE deadly!

And if you can't hit an NRA bullseye target with a NY trigger Glock, you suck as a shooter. I have those targets, too. Hitting a paper plate at 20 yards was pretty easy with my old 19.
And wsr, I'm aware of the mechanics of a DA pull on a revolver and the striker pull on a Glock. But 12 pounds is 12 pounds. And I have two striker guns now. I don't jerk the trigger. Take up the slack until I feel resistance, and then smoothly press the trigger. Return trigger to reset and repeat.

 

[kbm6893]

The ONLY ND I have ever had was with an M1911, and PRECISELY because I didn't observe the 4 Firearm Safety Rules.

And not only did it have a safety, I started off with an empty chamber.

Just as the 1911 is not for beginners, neither is a striker fired weapon with a 5.5 pound trigger and no safety.

 

[cmort666]

Aim small, miss small. Another mall ninja favorite.

"Mall ninjas" apparently don't have qualified immunity and actually have to hit the RIGHT target.

Your constant Labeling of the NY trigger as ludicrously heavy that 5' women can effectively use just means you can't.

If you lower the bar sufficiently, EVERYBODY can be "effective".

Of course I've never heard of a "participation trophy" for a self-defense shooting.

They do however give out civil judgments and indictments... if you don't have qualified immunity.

A competent shooter should be able to effectively use any weapon available to the civilian market.

...for sufficiently lax definitions of "effectively".

And the DA trigger weight on my revolvers is about 12 pounds. The Glock NY trigger is about 12 pounds. Same weight.

Same weight, entirely different action.

But some of us already knew that.

If you can't hit the side of the barn from inside the barn with a NY trigger or the DAO trigger on your friends Beretta 96, blame the Indian, not the arrow.

Sounds like something a "mall ninja" might say.

If you can't be safe with a 3.5lb. Ghost connector, blame the Indian, not the arrow.

Heavier triggers REDUCE the likelihood of an ND.

Have you talked to Akai Gurley about that?

You DO know how to conduct a seance, DON'T you?

How big is the black? It's a standard police torso sized target with 5 circles, from 7 to the X ring. my shots were always in the 9 and 10 rings. Sometimes 8 ring at 25 yards. 7 yards they were in the X. Scored 95 or better on every qual from 25, 15, and 7 yards. The max distance for any police shooting and certainly civilian defense shooting.

Yeah, must be WAY harder than the NRA 50' slow fire... with TWO hands.

Now go ahead and refute that with "tell that to Akai Gurley's family". You know that's not proof of your position, but it's all you have to say.

If you don't care about dead citizens, I can't make you.

Enjoy your 3.5 pound trigger. Maybe you'll get lucky and Glock will come out with a 1/4 pound trigger. Make you even MORE deadly!

Either way, I'll be keeping my finger off the trigger when I'm not squeezing it.

Of course for some people the trigger seems to have a magical fascination, like the ring for Gollum...

And wsr, I'm aware of the mechanics of a DA pull on a revolver and the striker pull on a Glock.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

You can call a pig a carnation, but people will know the difference when you try to stick one in your button hole.

 

[cmort666]

Just as the 1911 is not for beginners, neither is a striker fired weapon with a 5.5 pound trigger and no safety.

Nor apparently 12lb. triggers, or Akai Gurley would still be alive.

 

[kbm6893]

No you didnt, you are asserting that a light trigger will somehow get you convicted in a SD shootings those cases don't show that in any way



I don't know what that has to do with anyrhing
Unlike you I haven't tried to tout shooting expert on lowest common denominator course of fire as some kind acomplishment
Well we not only got to hold them we got to shoot,qualify and even carried them when we wanted


But I had a lightened trigger



The fact that you are comparing DA revolver and glock triggers shows that you really don't know what you are talking about
A DA trigger has a long trigger pull leading to a smooth pull, striker guns have a very short trigger when the weight is heavy it leads to more of a jerk...that's just the nature of it...it can be managed but falls apart outside of quasi shooting quals on stationary paper targets with time limits that really aren't
I am no fan of striker guns especially for novices but a heavy pull as a safety feature is ridiculous...it's a hardware fix to a software problem

The cases I cited were relevant. The DA is going to use whatever he can to get his conviction. Trigger pull weight (in the Gurley and White cases, it was heavy pull. Think they wouldn't have used a lighter pull if it helped their case?) was used to convict those 2 individuals. In the Trayvon Martin case, the DA tried to make a big deal out of the lack of a safety on his Kel-Tec. Totally irrelevant, but the DA didn't care. He was trying to sway the jury and paint Zimmerman as some bloodthirsty Rambo wanna-be, out for blood.

In your case, I don't have the details and don't really care to hear them. It very well could have been that it was such a clear cut good shoot, and the guy shot was a predicate felon, and the DA knew that there would be no conviction, so why bother? But you're kidding yourself if you think no DA ever used modifying a weapon in any way in her defense.

But since you asked, here is a thread on this very forum. An article written by Massad Ayoob. 4 people charged and I believe 3 went to prison. He mentions the 3.5 trigger in a Glock trigger as being listed under the "sport models", not police or self defense. He also states he could not recommend installing a lighter trigger in a weapon used for self defense.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/concea...facts-about-light-trigger-pull-liability.html

 

[wsr]

The cases I cited were relevant. The DA is going to use whatever he can to get his conviction. Trigger pull weight (in the Gurley and White cases, it was heavy pull. Think they wouldn't have used a lighter pull if it helped their case?) was used to convict those 2 individuals. In the Trayvon Martin case, the DA tried to make a big deal out of the lack of a safety on his Kel-Tec. Totally irrelevant, but the DA didn't care. He was trying to sway the jury and paint Zimmerman as some bloodthirsty Rambo wanna-be, out for blood.

In your case, I don't have the details and don't really care to hear them. It very well could have been that it was such a clear cut good shoot, and the guy shot was a predicate felon, and the DA knew that there would be no conviction, so why bother? But you're kidding yourself if you think no DA ever used modifying a weapon in any way in her defense.

But since you asked, here is a thread on this very forum. An article written by Massad Ayoob. 4 people charged and I believe 3 went to prison. He mentions the 3.5 trigger in a Glock trigger as being listed under the "sport models", not police or self defense. He also states he could not recommend installing a lighter trigger in a weapon used for self defense.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/concea...facts-about-light-trigger-pull-liability.html

It always comes down to those cases...funny thing is people that cite them haven't read them or they would realize that it was the SHOOTER that brought up the trigger issue by claiming some kind of AD/ND so of course prosecutor went after the trigger weight the SHOOTER just said he killed someone on ACCIDENT

It amazes me that people can't see the difference between a deliberate SD shooting and a accidental shooting

 

[kbm6893]

"Mall ninjas" apparently don't have qualified immunity and actually have to hit the RIGHT target.


If you lower the bar sufficiently, EVERYBODY can be "effective".

Of course I've never heard of a "participation trophy" for a self-defense shooting.

They do however give out civil judgments and indictments... if you don't have qualified immunity.


...for sufficiently lax definitions of "effectively".


Same weight, entirely different action.

But some of us already knew that.


Sounds like something a "mall ninja" might say.

If you can't be safe with a 3.5lb. Ghost connector, blame the Indian, not the arrow.


Have you talked to Akai Gurley about that?

You DO know how to conduct a seance, DON'T you?


Yeah, must be WAY harder than the NRA 50' slow fire... with TWO hands.


If you don't care about dead citizens, I can't make you.


Either way, I'll be keeping my finger off the trigger when I'm not squeezing it.

Of course for some people the trigger seems to have a magical fascination, like the ring for Gollum...


Saying it doesn't make it so.

You can call a pig a carnation, but people will know the difference when you try to stick one in your button hole.

You'll be keeping your finger off the trigger, except when you negligently discharged your 1911. Saying you're going to do something doesn't mean you will under duress. And I doubt you were under duress when you fired thst 1911. You made a mistake. Just as officer Liang did. Only by the grace of God did you not hit somebody, just as by the grace of God Liang DID. Bullet ricocheted TWICE before hiring Gurley. AND it was in the heart. Anywhere else and with the loss of velocity Gurley would have been saved. Miracle shot.

 

[cmort666]

You'll be keeping your finger off the trigger, except when you negligently discharged your 1911.

Having my finger on the trigger was irrelevant.

I had my finger on the trigger ON PURPOSE.

I just didn't check to see if I'd left a loaded magazine in the gun.

Neither a 3.5lb., nor a 35lb., nor a 350lb. trigger would have made a difference.

You made a mistake. Just as officer Liang did.

But I make no excuses for it.

Nor do I shrink from admitting it.

Nor do I claim that lame gimmicks would have prevented it.

If that ridiculously heavy "NY trigger" would have prevented ANY negligent discharge, it should have been the one that killed Akai Gurley. There was no danger... other than Liang tripping and falling down the stairs. And yet, the magical "NY trigger" failed to prevent him from killing an innocent man.

And I'm going to go out on a limb and cast doubt upon whether his family considers the bullet hole in his heart a "miracle"...

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

The NYPD course is no different than any other police course. And I'm not bragging. My shooting skills have gone up considerably since I retired.

So it was after you carried a gun for a living that you learned to shoot well?

 

[kbm6893]

It always comes down to those cases...funny thing is people that cite them haven't read them or they would realize that it was the SHOOTER that brought up the trigger issue by claiming some kind of AD/ND so of course prosecutor went after the trigger weight the SHOOTER just said he killed someone on ACCIDENT

It amazes me that people can't see the difference between a deliberate SD shooting and a accidental shooting

Oh come on! You ask for cases and I give them but it's not good enough. The intentionally lighter trigger was used to convict the men. And I guess you didn't complete the article. The 3.5 pound trigger that Glock sells is listed as a "sport" trigger. For competition. And Ayoob concluded the article with his opinion that intentionally lightening the trigger on a self defense pistol is not advised.

Do what you want. I don't care. How much time have you spent in a criminal courtroom? If you had spent any time, you will know that both sides will use WHATEVER they can to win. And in the current anti-gun climate, the jury will buy it. I choose not to give them that ammunition should I ever be in a SD shooting. And you know what? It doesn't matter, because I can hit what I'm aiming at at typical self defense ranges. And if I miss, it won't be the trigger's fault.

It's like using an AR for home defense. We all know it's just a semi auto carbine firing a varmit round, but the DA would hold it up and call it an assault weapon, suitable for war, but not for home defense.

Ignoring the reality doesn't mean it isn't there.

 

[kbm6893]

So it was after you carried a gun for a living that you learned to shoot well?

No. I shot well as a cop. But I didn't shoot as often as I do now. I'm a teacher now with summers off, 2 weeks for Christmas, 2 weeks for Easter. Federal holidays, religious holidays. All off. Range is usually empty on a weekday morning. I bet I shot more this summer than I did in a typical year when I was a cop. I reload my own ammo now so I can shoot more for less money.

 

[wsr]

See

[

Oh come on! You ask for cases and I give them but it's not good enough. The intentionally lighter trigger was used to convict the men. And I guess you didn't complete the article. The 3.5 pound trigger that Glock sells is listed as a "sport" trigger. For competition. And Ayoob concluded the article with his opinion that intentionally lightening the trigger on a self defense pistol is not advised.

Do what you want. I don't care. How much time have you spent in a criminal courtroom? If you had spent any time, you will know that both sides will use WHATEVER they can to win. And in the current anti-gun climate, the jury will buy it. I choose not to give them that ammunition should I ever be in a SD shooting. And you know what? It doesn't matter, because I can hit what I'm aiming at at typical self defense ranges. And if I miss, it won't be the trigger's fault.

It's like using an AR for home defense. We all know it's just a semi auto carbine firing a varmit round, but the DA would hold it up and call it an assault weapon, suitable for war, but not for home defense.

Ignoring the reality doesn't mean it isn't there.

So you don't see a difference in a accidental shooting and a SD shooting/justified shooting????

How can you justifiably shoot someone on accident????

Just because they use it or try to use doesn't mean it's effective

I did complete the article Ayoob's opinion is based on faulty logic...that because someone got convicted for killing someone on accident (or claiming it) means that a legitimate shooting will end the same way...it's ridiculous
And this isn't a knock on ayoob, he's a very smart guy and I read everything he writes but don't take it as gospel especially when he can't back up his opinions

 

[cmort666]

I did complete the article Ayoob's opinion is based on faulty logic...that because someone got convicted for killing someone on accident (or claiming it) means that a legitimate shooting will end the same way...it's ridiculous
And this isn't a knock on ayoob, he's a very smart guy and I read everything he writes but don't take it as gospel especially when he can't back up his opinions

I have a similar opinion of Ayoob.

He's no dummy, but he's also a cop and a public speaker and approaches things from a very different direction from a lot of citizens.

One example is his advice on what to say to the cops after a self-defense shooting. I'm sure he means well, and would be able to effectively convey his meaning to responding cops. On the other hand, I'm CERTAIN that my mother could NOT intelligibly repeat his script back to cops (at least without it printed out in large print). I'm CERTAIN she'd only come off sounding either like she was having a stroke or suffering from schizophrenia.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

How can you justifiably shoot someone on accident????

Kbm was posting about his negligent discharges a few months ago. I never asked him how many people he negligently justifiably shot. Now I'm curious.

 

[cmort666]

Kbm was posting about his negligent discharges a few months ago. I never asked him how many people he negligently justifiably shot. Now I'm curious.

I thought that the "NY trigger" was supposed to prev... LESSEN the occurrence of those!

Did he just glue his finger to the trigger???

 

[Old TexMex]

I'm not sure if you guys are arguing about striker fired pistols vs hammer fired, heavy trigger pull or just bashing police officers.....

 

[Wise_A]

It's a pointless, never-ending argument. I called it as soon as the words "striker-fired" and "AD/ND" were uttered in the same sentence. This is the only path such a thread may take, reason be damned.

Avoid the extremes, get the gear that works for you. Study firearms and shooting so that you can articulate why you made the decisions you made. And hopefully, make less-terrible decisions.

Such as knowing that physiologically, one's fingers tend to subconsciously contract under stress. It doesn't matter whether the trigger is 3#, 5#, 8#, or 12#, or how long or short it is. If you have your finger on the trigger when you don't intend to shoot, the you're going to have an ND. If you have the muzzle covering someone you don't intend to shoot, you're going to negligently shoot someone before it's necessary.

Gotta understand the why.

 

[cmort666]

I'm not sure if you guys are arguing about striker fired pistols vs hammer fired, heavy trigger pull or just bashing police officers.....

Mostly we're just refusing to capitulate to supremely faulty "logic", acceptance of low standards and a wrongheaded urge to replace proper training, personal responsibility and common sense with gadgets.