how reliable is a striker fired pistol in reguards to AD's?

3.5 pounds is a light trigger. Unless it's a competition gun, it is totally unnecessary and has zero benefit.
...well, other than being able to hit your target. No doubt to some people that's not a priority...

As his been said many times, ND's thst DONT happen don't get reported, because they didn't happen.
And the ones that DO happen despite the ridiculous "NY trigger" DO.


If the NY trigger wasn't on many police guns, ND's would be higher.
And if the guns were replaced with clubs, there'd be no NDs AT ALL.

You can't have an ND with a Monadnock...
 
...well, other than being able to hit your target. No doubt to some people that's not a priority...


And the ones that DO happen despite the ridiculous "NY trigger" DO.



And if the guns were replaced with clubs, there'd be no NDs AT ALL.

You can't have an ND with a Monadnock...

Heavier triggers don't prevent people from hitting targets. Its the Indian, not the arrow.

For some reason, you have it in your head that a 12 pound trigger is a bad thing. It's not, in self defense weapon. But since your only exposure to guns is paper targets and hypotheticals, I can see where your misguided beliefs come from.
 
Heavier triggers don't prevent people from hitting targets.
Then why not a 25lb. trigger?

...or better yet a Monadnock that can't be pulled from the ring until you complete the Chinese civil service exam circa 1704!

Brush up on the "Analects" before you hit the street...
 
If there is no difference in effective accuracy but serves to reduce the likelihood of unintentionally shooting yourself and others... sounds like a genius win/win upgrade to swap out your 5-6lb Glock trigger to a 10-12lb, right?

Kmb6893, you've posted that you have owned Glocks. Did you swap them to 10-12lb triggers upon purchase?

There's lots of Glock owners here.... Who here has changed the trigger in their Glock to 10-12lbs to reduce the likelihood of unintentionally shooting yourself and others?

I must admit that I've been a Glock owner for a couple decades and have yet to "upgrade" ... :rolleyes:
 
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If there is no difference in effective accuracy but serves to reduce the likelihood of unintentionally shooting yourself and others... sounds like a genius win/win upgrade to swap out your 5-6lb Glock trigger to a 10-12lb, right?

Kmb6893, you've posted that you have owned Glocks. Did you swap them to 10-12lb triggers upon purchase?

There's lots of Glock owners here.... Who here has changed the trigger in their Glock to 10-12lbs to reduce the likelihood of unintentionally shooting yourself and others?

I must admit that I've been a Glock owner for a couple decades and have yet to "upgrade" ... :rolleyes:

My Glock 19 came with the NY trigger and I never changed it. My Glock 26 came with the standard trigger. I didn't own it for long but I never changed the standard to a NY one. I shot them both equally well. The trigger made no difference that I could see. The torso of a man sized target was shredded with both.

Gaston Glock came up with his "Perfection" slogan and people swallowed it whole.

And I would bet that most gun owners don't tinker with their guns. If they stop working they send it back to the factory, but that's very rare. Most people buy a gun, shoot a few boxes of ammo through it, and put it in the sock drawer. They don't even shoot it enough to know if there are problems. I know people who carry who haven't fired their weapons in over a year. Smart? Nope. But it is what it is.

Most gun owners aren't members of gun forums.

And the average guy buying a Glock in a store has no idea what trigger weight is, nor does he care.

A friend at work wanted a gun for home protection. Neither her nor her husband are gun people. So she says "the clerk at the store told me I should get a Glock". So I invited her over. Showed her the difference between striker fired guns and hammer fired. I no longer own any Glocks but do have a Ruger SR9 and an LC9-S. Both have pretty light triggers, but they have manual safeties, too. I told her the Rugers were very similar to the Glock but they have manual safeties and magazine disconnects. She liked those features. But she was shocked at how easy it was to pull the triggers.

She liked my Beretta 92 and S&W 5903 the best. Said they were "prettier", but she liked the longer trigger pull on them. Wanted a 5903 but doesn't want to buy used, so she's going to get a Beretta 92fs Compact. She liked the revolvers too so she might get one of those, but she decided against a striker fired weapon of any brand.

The same mantra is repeated over and over again. "Keep your booger hook off the bang switch", and "my safety is between my ears", and judgements of those who have used a weapon in high stress self defense situations by those who never have and never will. YouTube is full of them as they make their videos from their mothers basement. Nobody here is saying a heavier trigger will PREVENT all ND's. But it will reduce them. There is no denying that. Before Glock graced the world with their presence, people carried semi autos with long DA pulls and even safeties! And many even used them in self defense situations! And they worked just fine! And the term Glock Leg didn't need to be coined.

I no longer carry a gun for a living. I carry a Ruger LC9-S because it is the slimmest and lightest 9MM I could find. The trigger on it is very light, but I has a safety and a mag disconnect and truth be told, it gets loaded and holstered with the safety on and it doesn't come out again until I get home. I had the older LC9 and sold it to buy something else. I should have kept it. Long DA pull. The LC9-S was cheaper when I bought it for some reason. I would never buy the LC9-S Pro, the version without the safety. The trigger on the LC9-S is extremely light and short.

Cmort's aversion to a heavier trigger is because he likes to think of himself as some experienced gun handler, and a heavier trigger is an insult to his perceived abilities. He can't clearly state why the heavier trigger is worse in a self defense gun. He just keeps repeated "training training training".
 
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The same mantra is repeated over and over again. "Keep your booger hook off the bang switch", and "my safety is between my ears", and judgements of those who have used a weapon in high stress self defense situations by those who never have and never will.
From WHOM or WHAT was the guy who shot Akai Gurley "defending" himself?

Darren Wilson was fighting to keep somebody from taking his gun, then fighting to keep from being tackled and having his gun taken.

The guy who killed Akai Gurley faced no more "danger" than his own fear.
  • Nobody was shooting at him.
  • Nobody was trying to stab him.
  • Nobody was trying to beat him.
  • Nobody was trying to take his gun.
And yet even with that ludicrous "NY trigger", he still managed to shoot somebody who was not only not engaged in any criminal activity, but who was in fact not in any position to be an immediate and credible threat to him.

If the "NY trigger" can't prevent THAT, I have my doubts as to its ability to somehow prevent an ND "in high stress self defense situations".
 
But according to Cmort, the heavier trigger will be a detriment to him in a self defense shooting, because every shot he fires (although he has never been in a shooting), will be his to take responsibility for, so he wants the most laser accurate weapon he can have. Which is great, but laser accuracy means nothing in a real shooting, and quite frankly, sights don't mean much, either. Human instinct is point and shoot, and at self defense ranges, that's more than enough.

He also believes he is so supremely trained, that he can have a feather light trigger and not have to worry about ND's.

As for taking responsibility, lets see how that fares in the unlikely event of a shooting when the DA finds out he installed a much lighter trigger on his Glock. Because in a real shooting when you are scared to death, you're gonna be yanking on that trigger, and that super light trigger will make it even more likely that you will hit somebody else.

Care to cite some cases where a lightened trigger got someone convicted in a SD shooting? Its little more than fear mongering
I have been involved in SD shootings the last one involved a .40cal hk p2000 with a 357sig barrel and converted from heavy LEM (8.5lbs approx) to light/match LEM (3.5-4lbs), reduced take up and over travel shooting handload 147gr ammo...no problems at all
As far as qualifying expert that you keep trotting out...that's great but not the norm for NYPD and isn't a hard feat, not to mention the minimum to pass could be done with closed eyes
Qualifying expert in the NYPD doesn't give you bragging rights outside of NY
 
From WHOM or WHAT was the guy who shot Akai Gurley "defending" himself?

Darren Wilson was fighting to keep somebody from taking his gun, then fighting to keep from being tackled and having his gun taken.

The guy who killed Akai Gurley faced no more "danger" than his own fear.
  • Nobody was shooting at him.
  • Nobody was trying to stab him.
  • Nobody was trying to beat him.
  • Nobody was trying to take his gun.
And yet even with that ludicrous "NY trigger", he still managed to shoot somebody who was not only not engaged in any criminal activity, but who was in fact not in any position to be an immediate and credible threat to him.

If the "NY trigger" can't prevent THAT, I have my doubts as to its ability to somehow prevent an ND "in high stress self defense situations".

What is it with you and Akai Gurley? In a city of over 35,000 cops s d 8 million residents, in MILLIONS of interactions, many of them felony stops and arrests, the one cop lets a round go because he's startled and you make an issue of it? The stairwell was dark. Project stairwells are notorious for criminal activity. Your whole argument is "if the "ludicrously heavy" (give me a break on that one. 5 foot tall women pass the entrance requirements for the academy by pulling the trigger on a 5946 15 times while the gun is inside a narrow square. If you can't do it or the gun hits the square, you're out) trigger didn't prevent that, then they're not gonna prevent ANY ND. It's a stupid argument. The cop pulled the trigger when he was startled. He is no longer a cop. Tens of thousands of others had the same training as he did and don't let errant shots to. It's not a training issue. Doctors have messed up in surgeries and patients died. Professional drivers have caused accidents. The cop made a mistake. Every profession does. He was convicted and fired. What more do you want? Something about that Gurley case really got you going, man.

As for the "training will prevent these", Bill Jordan, combat Marine, Border Patrolmen who was in many shootouts, professional shooter, shot and killed a fellow agent with a Model 19. Guess you feel you're more qualified than he was? It's not a training issue its a human issue. And despite what you THINK of your abilities, although you admit you never tested them in the real world, you will NEVER make that mistake. Because you're THAT good!
 
What is it with you and Akai Gurley?
What is it with you and the ludicrously heavy "NY trigger"?

In a city of over 35,000 cops s d 8 million residents, in MILLIONS of interactions, many of them felony stops and arrests, the one cop lets a round go because he's startled and you make an issue of it?
  1. I thought that the ludicrously heavy "NY trigger" was supposed to prevent that. If it can't prevent an ND when the cop's in NO danger, why would it when he actually IS?
  2. I can't imagine why anybody would "make an issue" of an innocent person being wrongfully KILLED...
 
Care to cite some cases where a lightened trigger got someone convicted in a SD shooting? Its little more than fear mongering
I have been involved in SD shootings the last one involved a .40cal hk p2000 with a 357sig barrel and converted from heavy LEM (8.5lbs approx) to light/match LEM (3.5-4lbs), reduced take up and over travel shooting handload 147gr ammo...no problems at all
As far as qualifying expert that you keep trotting out...that's great but not the norm for NYPD and isn't a hard feat, not to mention the minimum to pass could be done with closed eyes
Qualifying expert in the NYPD doesn't give you bragging rights outside of NY

The NYPD course is no different than any other police course. And I'm not bragging. My shooting skills have gone up considerably since I retired. I shoot much more now. I was simply saying that the "ludicrously heavy trigger" that Cmort refers to didn't prevent me from putting them all in the black at 25,15, and 7 yards. Shooting at a standard police silloute (I know that's spelled wrong) target. There are malfunction drills and even head shots to simulate the perp wearing a vest. Jim Cerillo was an NYPD cop and survivor of more than 17 shootouts. Killed quite a few bad guys. Won the Presidental Marksmanship Medal. Shot a running bad guy in the head who was holding a woman hostage at gunpoint. The NYPD marksmanship training is no better or worse than any other PD. It's all pretty standard.

As for citing cases, I don't have access to every court transcript involving shootings in this country. I DO know that when a DA wants to convict you, they use EVERY trick. If your shooting was investigated by somebody not looking to hang you, you came out all right. I DO know that the heavy trigger pull on Officer Liang's Glock 19 WAS used to convict him, and the jurors said so. They actually got to pull the trigger on his gun during the trial and they said there was no way "it went off" as Liang stated.

But Google John White shooting, Long Island, NY. Black man waited in the dark for 45 minutes when his son came home and said some guys were coming to "kill him". These were white friends angry at him over the belief that Aaron White sexually assaulted one of their friends. So Jihn White shoots one of the kids in the face because it "went off when the kid swatted it away". Firearms expert testified the gun was in proper working order and the trigger was pulled.

In the Trayvon Martin case, the DA harped on the fact that Zimmerman's Kel Tec had no safety, trying to paint him as reckless. Upon cross examination of the cop who made the statement, the cop admitted that his service weapon did not have one, either.

So I'm glad your shooting went well. But if the DA wanted you, he would have made a very big deal about it it's not internet myth. They will use whatever trick they can to convict you, just like your lawyer will use every trick in the book to acquit you
 
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What is it with you and the ludicrously heavy "NY trigger"?


  1. I thought that the ludicrously heavy "NY trigger" was supposed to prevent that. If it can't prevent an ND when the cop's in NO danger, why would it when he actually IS?
  2. I can't imagine why anybody would "make an issue" of an innocent person being wrongfully KILLED...

The heavier trigger isn't supposed to prevent ND's. It's supposed to lessen their occurrences. And it does that. You know that but you just keep repeating the same nonsense. Just like anti-lock breaks are supposed to reduce car accidents. Or should we not use those either, since drivers are so well trained that they don't need them? And your use of the phrase ludicrously heavy just makes you sound nuts. 5 foot tall women can shoot them fine. My wife shoots my Beretta 92 in DA mode just fine, and she's very good on a DA revolver, too.

You're just somebody who thinks of himself as some advanced pistolero and sees them as an insult to your perceived abilities. You remind me of that video on YouTube where the fat guy in the cowboy hat shootings himself as he's drawing a 1911. He "reverted to his training" too. Of course, thst training was calling his mother who then called an ambulance.

Something is up with you and the Gurley case. It's creepy.
 
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The heavier trigger isn't supposed to prevent ND's. It's supposed to lessen their occurrences. And it does that.
...just not that you can show.

The ludicrously heavy "NY trigger" certainly didn't in the case of Akai Gurley, and the cop was in NO danger... apart from his own fear.

And your use of the phrase ludicrously heavy just makes you sound nuts. 5 foot tall women can shoot them fine. My wife shoots my Beretta 92 in DA mode just fine, and she's very good on a DA revolver, too.
Can they make a bullet come out of the barrel at a high velocity? I'm sure. Can they hit the right person and not somebody who isn't committing a crime? I'm NOT so sure.

You're just somebody who thinks of himself as some advanced pistolero and sees them as an insult to your perceived abilities.
I'm just somebody who knows he's responsible for his own actions... and expects public servants to be similarly responsible.

Something is up with you and the Gurley case. It's creepy.
Clearly not wanting INNOCENT people to be shot is "creepy"...
 
The NYPD course is no different than any other police course. And I'm not bragging. My shooting skills have gone up considerably since I retired. I shoot much more now. I was simply saying that the "ludicrously heavy trigger" that Cmort refers to didn't prevent me from putting them all in the black at 25,15, and 7 yards. Shooting at a standard police silloute (I know that's spelled wrong) target. There are malfunction drills and even head shots to simulate the perp wearing a vest. Jim Cerillo was an NYPD cop and survivor of more than 17 shootouts. Killed quite a few bad guys. Won the Presidental Marksmanship Medal. Shot a running bad guy in the head who was holding a woman hostage at gunpoint. The NYPD marksmanship training is no better or worse than any other PD. It's all pretty standard.

As for citing cases, I don't have access to every court transcript involving shootings in this country. I DO know that when a DA wants to convict you, they use EVERY trick. If your shooting was investigated by somebody not looking to hang you, you came out all right. I DO know that the heavy trigger pull on Officer Liang's Glock 19 WAS used to convict him, and the jurors said so. They actually got to pull the trigger on his gun during the trial and they said there was no way "it went off" as Liang stated.

But Google John White shooting, Long Island, NY. Black man waited in the dark for 45 minutes when his son came home and said some guys were coming to "kill him". These were white friends angry at him over the belief that Aaron White sexually assaulted one of their friends. So Jihn White shoots one of the kids in the face because it "went off when the kid swatted it away". Firearms expert testified the gun was in proper working order and the trigger was pulled.

In the Trayvon Martin case, the DA harped on the fact that Zimmerman's Kel Tec had no safety, trying to paint him as reckless. Upon cross examination of the cop who made the statement, the cop admitted that his service weapon did not have one, either.

So I'm glad your shooting went well. But if the DA wanted you, he would have made a very big deal about it it's not internet myth. They will use whatever trick they can to convict you, just like your lawyer will use every trick in the book to acquit you

The D.A. was Kym Worthy in Detroit..she is extremely anti gun and anti SD
if it's not a internet myth then you should have no trouble citing a couple cases...Or one
A heavy trigger is a band aid for bad trigger finger discipline
You may not be bragging but you are acting like shooting expert on a stupidly easy course of fire is something special...
 
What it really comes down to is this.

If you want a 12 pound trigger then shoot a 12 pound trigger. If you want a safety on your gun, have one. If you want a 3 or four pound trigger pull with no safety, then get one.

Regardless of trigger pulls, which I have had to Google what they were on my own guns, keeping your finger off the trigger will keep them from going boom. Yes, a 12 pound trigger may, may being the key word, lesson the chance of an ND.

It has been mentioned a few times in this thread that sometimes under stress a finger makes its way to a trigger when it shouldn't. OK, I will buy that but I still say more and or better training will prevent that or at least should in anyone carrying a gun as part of their job. I will admit Joe average citizen probably doesn't train at that level. All that said, with a serious fear based adrenaline dump I don't think someone under stress is going to even feel the difference between a 3 and 12 pound trigger and the gun will "just go off." It is amazing how often that happens with a finger on the trigger.

My 16 year old does not put his finger on the trigger until it is down range and on target. My wife doesn't put her finger on the trigger until it is down range and on target. Would they still do that if the target was shooting at them? Hopefully we will never find out. I know from experience that my finger will not go on the trigger until the weapon is on target even if that target is a person that I perceive as a genuine and immediate threat to my life. I know that twice that having a finger on a trigger with the gun positioned to kill another human that the gun did not go bang because you still have to pull that trigger. One incident involved a four pound pull and the other a 12. I have also seen how very quickly a firearm can de-escalate a situation if the aggressor wants to live and I am very happy they did.

One last note. My wife has a hard time pulling the double action trigger on her 357. It is too heavy for her and as a result she pulls the lead off target. She is not qualing for a PD or agency just training for personal purposes. She thumb cocks it and shoots it single action.
 
The D.A. was Kym Worthy in Detroit..she is extremely anti gun and anti SD
if it's not a internet myth then you should have no trouble citing a couple cases...Or one
A heavy trigger is a band aid for bad trigger finger discipline
You may not be bragging but you are acting like shooting expert on a stupidly easy course of fire is something special...

I just cited 2 cases where the trigger pull was used to prosecute the offenders. The DA tried making a big deal out of Zimmerman's lack of a manual safety on his Kel Tef. Think he wouldn't have pounced on Zimmerman removing his factory heavier weight trigger in favor of a lighter one. The DA in both the White and the Gurley case both used the heavy trigger pull as evidence that the gun couldn't have just gone off, but rather was deliberately pulled. They would certainly have used a lighter than standard pull to show recklessness in order to get a conviction.

And I'm acting like somebody who was consistently able to hit the black with a "ludicrously heavy" trigger. That is all. And just how good is the pistol course in the Army? Infantrymen in the Marines don't even get to hold a pistol. I doubt the Army is any better.

As for the DA in your case, DA's want to win. Hey don't want to lose. So if the guy you shot was undoubtably the bad guy, and the DA knew she'd never get a conviction, she wouldn't bother risking it.

Use whatever you want. Referring to a trigger as ludicrously heavy, when in reality they are no heavier than the DA revolvers that cops carried for 100 years, just means the shooter who hates them so much sucks as a shooter. It's like people who only shoot DA revolvers in SA mode. Shows a lack of trigger control. Truth is, a gun like a Glock with a light trigger and no safety is a gun thst Glock markets as good for novices. No safety to fumble with, they say. It's like somebody buying an automatic transmission motorcycle. They can't learn how to drive a manual.
 
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cy·cli·cal
ˈsiklək(ə)l,ˈsīklək(ə)l/
adjective
occurring in cycles; recurrent.
"the cyclical nature of the cement industry"
synonyms: recurrent, recurring, regular, repeated;
 
The DA in both the White and the Gurley case both used the heavy trigger pull as evidence that the gun couldn't have just gone off, but rather was deliberately pulled. They would certainly have used a lighter than standard pull to show recklessness in order to get a conviction.
Interesting...
  • Ludicrously heavy trigger = "evidence that the gun couldn't have just gone off, but rather was deliberately pulled".
  • "Lighter than standard pull" = "evidence that the gun couldn't have just gone off, but rather was deliberately pulled".

And I'm acting like somebody who was consistently able to hit the black with a "ludicrously heavy" trigger.
And how big is the black?

I don't derive a LOT of lessons from entertainment movies, but every so often they DO contain a kernel of truth:

"Aim small, miss small" ...unless there aren't any personal consequences for doing otherwise and you find a desire not to harm innocent third parties... "creepy".

That is all. And just how good is the pistol course in the Army? Infantrymen in the Marines don't even get to hold a pistol. I doubt the Army is any better.
So, you're going to justify inadequate training with OTHER inadequate training?

I've said it before, "Insh Allah!" is a really bad life strategy... ESPECIALLY when loaded firearms are involved.

Use whatever you want. Referring to a trigger as ludicrously heavy, when in reality they are no heavier than the DA revolvers that cops carried for 100 years, just means the shooter who hates them so much sucks as a shooter.
Anybody who would equate a ludicrously heavy "NY trigger" on a Glock with the double action on a K or N frame S&W revolver pretty obviously doesn't know much about either...
 
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I carried sidearms for a living for 24 years. The only one that had a thumb safety was the M1911s I carried in the Army. I carried S&W and Ruger revolvers, Glocks, and Sig Sauers...none had external safeties. I never had an unintentional discharge with any of them. Why? Because we trained extensively and I always used appropriate carry gear.

If you are under the impression that your pistol won't accidentally discharge because it has a safety, you have succumbed to a false sense of security. Only adherence to the 4 Firearm Safety Rules will keep you safe no matter what piece you carry.
 
I just cited 2 cases where the trigger pull was used to prosecute the offenders. The DA tried making a big deal out of Zimmerman's lack of a manual safety on his Kel Tef. Think he wouldn't have pounced on Zimmerman removing his factory heavier weight trigger in favor of a lighter one. The DA in both the White and the Gurley case both used the heavy trigger pull as evidence that the gun couldn't have just gone off, but rather was deliberately pulled. They would certainly have used a lighter than standard pull to show recklessness in order to get a conviction.

No you didnt, you are asserting that a light trigger will somehow get you convicted in a SD shootings those cases don't show that in any way

And I'm acting like somebody who was consistently able to hit the black with a "ludicrously heavy" trigger. That is all. And just how good is the pistol course in the Army? Infantrymen in the Marines don't even get to hold a pistol. I doubt the Army is any better.

I don't know what that has to do with anyrhing
Unlike you I haven't tried to tout shooting expert on lowest common denominator course of fire as some kind acomplishment
Well we not only got to hold them we got to shoot,qualify and even carried them when we wanted :eek:
As for the DA in your case, DA's want to win. Hey don't want to lose. So if the guy you shot was undoubtably the bad guy, and the DA knew she'd never get a conviction, she wouldn't bother risking it.

But I had a lightened trigger :eek:

Use whatever you want. Referring to a trigger as ludicrously heavy, when in reality they are no heavier than the DA revolvers that cops carried for 100 years, just means the shooter who hates them so much sucks as a shooter. It's like people who only shoot DA revolvers in SA mode. Shows a lack of trigger control. Truth is, a gun like a Glock with a light trigger and no safety is a gun thst Glock markets as good for novices. No safety to fumble with, they say. It's like somebody buying an automatic transmission motorcycle. They can't learn how to drive a manual.

The fact that you are comparing DA revolver and glock triggers shows that you really don't know what you are talking about
A DA trigger has a long trigger pull leading to a smooth pull, striker guns have a very short trigger when the weight is heavy it leads to more of a jerk...that's just the nature of it...it can be managed but falls apart outside of quasi shooting quals on stationary paper targets with time limits that really aren't
I am no fan of striker guns especially for novices but a heavy pull as a safety feature is ridiculous...it's a hardware fix to a software problem
 
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