It appears that there's a problem with the 15/22!

[Kmckinnon]

Ditto

I was so happy, just grabbed one of these and thought nothing but good things about this purchase and now to read this is disappointing. Before I bought it I saw nothing but great things about the 15-22. I purchased it new but the older model because I liked it more than the new one. Now I'm feeling blah about something that was highly raved about everywhere.

No Bueno

Likewise. I too recently purchased a 15-22 based in part on rave reviews. I hope S&W jumps all over this soon so that any problems are identified and resolved and 15-22 owners don't have this cloud of uncertainty hanging over their heads.

 

[RedNeck Jim]

Doesn't it make since if the stock trigger was causing any issue, such as deciding to go auto or shoot on reset, that we would be hearing about it here? Since competition shooters are looking for a competitive edge, doesn't it make sense that maybe these guns causing these problems have been modified?

Why wouldn't Appleseed first verify these issues were caused by a stock gun, as opposed to one that has had trigger work done on it? At least to me, that would be where I would start.

 

[Kayback]

I knowof hundreds of thousands of rounds fired through these things with no issues.

I have seen Glocks double. I've seen 1911s run away. I've seen AR and AKs fire on reset. I've seen Galils run away. I'll admit I haven't seen any OOBs in other calibers but my .22LR pistol has had an OOB.

I do wonder if the OOBs are pre blue spring or possibly worn blue spring guns?

 

[tomcatt51]

I'd like to know what qualifies Appleseeds instructors to be instructors. From the interactions I've had I suspect the answer is "not much"...

 

[didactic]

I'd like to know what qualifies Appleseeds instructors to be instructors. From the interactions I've had I suspect the answer is "not much"...

Let's play nice, please. I'm an Appleseed instructor. I can't tell you how many hours it takes to qualify, but it's several tests, and many hours of teaching, coaching and running a line under the supervision of more senior instructors. As well as instructing shooting positions and techniques. As well as some unrelated things, such as Revolutionary War history. Are some sharper than others? If course. How could it be otherwise? But that's a lot harder and more rigorous certification than to be an NRA instructor, in my experience and NSHO.

In the case of my personal 15/22, it is an older model, and it is absolutely box-stock except for having mounted a low-power scope on it.

Anybody can do what they want, believe what they want, and say what they want. I'll be leaving mine in the safe until I hear what S&W says, and throwing no rocks at anyone in the meantime.

 

[Rob1]

you know what I love about this forum, the changes in the wind.

Over the past 2 years or so we have heard of the odd problem here or there with an OOB, or some walking pins, or a dodgy trigger.....

More often than not traced back to a dirty rifle, a faulty pin, a worn hole for the walking pin, a weak spring / heavy spring on the hammer, a tricked out bobbed and polished hammer etc etc etc

And of course the follow up advice, get cleaning, replace pins with Anti Walk, change up / down trigger springs or whatever seems to help fix the problem.

THEN....

A couple or three similar problems occur at an APPLESEED and BOOM!!!!! the 15-22 is the anti Christ of shooting.

Just like that people doubt their choices, think of ditching their beloved plinkers and think about all the negative aspects of what COULD go wrong.

These type of things happen, Period.

Semi Auto going full auto, happens more then people like to admit.

Full auto going run away, again nothing new.

OOB, happens.

usually a result of all types of things like,
Dirty weapon
worn parts
dodgy ammo
freak, never before seen group of unfortunate circumstances
Old weapon
wrong type of ammo
the list is endless really, but let us not forget one thing, this time it was a comp gun type setting so I would hazard a guess that they had been tweaked at some point.

The above list of things that can go wrong I have seen and experienced on issue weapons from single shot, semi and full auto rifles and belt fed machine guns, if you shoot, you will likely have one or more of this at some point.

But lets not forget the one constant in all of these faults...the user.... no doubt there will also be a decision to use said weapon with said ammo on said event with the possibility of one or more of ANY of the listed factors coming in to play.

keep it clean, use what you know is good and use appropriate eye/ears and enjoy... don't run away from it, enjoy it.

It may never happen to you, if it does, stop check safe, pack up and go home or fix, reload and carry on.

my tuppence

 

[tomcatt51]

Let's play nice, please. I'm an Appleseed instructor. I can't tell you how many hours it takes to qualify, but it's several tests, and many hours of teaching, coaching and running a line under the supervision of more senior instructors...
Anybody can do what they want, believe what they want, and say what they want. I'll be leaving mine in the safe until I hear what S&W says, and throwing no rocks at anyone in the meantime.

What I've quoted below was posted as an apparent rationalization of banning 15-22s.

15-22s use a standard AR-15 trigger group. It's a well proven, reliable, trigger group. That said there are many stupid things people do to them.

But, in the below example it seems an extractor failed, or fell out. I've seen plenty of 10-22s and Ruger semi-auto pistols do this. Inconvenient but not a big deal. THEN an "INSTRUCTOR" works on the gun and AFTER HE "WORKS" ON THE GUN it goes full auto. Not good.

Reading the posting, it appears to me, the more logical course of action would be for your "INSTRUCTOR" to keep his hands off the equipment. The 15-22 didn't have a "RUN-AWAY" 'til AFTER he "worked" on it...

The Appleseed "Instructor" though he was qualified to work on it but isn't confident in S&Ws' repairs? He says the rifle "performed well" after S&Ws' repairs but he won't bring it back to an Appleseed match? My greatest fear would be that he'd work on it again.

As to OOB ignition, this certainly isn't limited to 15-22s. I've bled when a shooter I was ROing had an OOB with his 10-22. A friend took the offending piece of brass out of my arm with a pair of needle nose pliers. It was in a spot I couldn't reach well enough to do it myself. It happens.

REPORTS TO BE AWARE OF:

Michigan Instructor: “Back before I was more familiar with this model, we had a malfunction of the Extractor during an event – it simply fell apart during a course of fire. I took it to Williams and they said it needed to go back to S&W. To save time I just bought a new extractor, springs and dowel pins and replaced them myself. Tested it and it worked fine, that’s until it malfunctioned again after several hundred rounds down range.

As the old saying goes “two is one and one is none” – I had purchased several extractors, springs and dowel pins – replaced it a second time and it worked fine all up until I had a “Run-Away…” Luckily I had the muzzle pointed down range as it spit out the balance of 30 rounds down range without the need to have a finger on the trigger….
I contacted S&W and they sent me a repair tag and shipped it back to them. Upon its return I noticed that they replaced the hammer, sear and all the springs were replaced with “Blue” springs. The rifle performed well the after that but I never brought it back to an Appleseed. It now sits in the vault as an expensive club.”

 

[RedNeck Jim]

Let's play nice, please. I'm an Appleseed instructor. I can't tell you how many hours it takes to qualify, but it's several tests, and many hours of teaching, coaching and running a line under the supervision of more senior instructors. As well as instructing shooting positions and techniques. As well as some unrelated things, such as Revolutionary War history. Are some sharper than others? If course. How could it be otherwise? But that's a lot harder and more rigorous certification than to be an NRA instructor, in my experience and NSHO.

In the case of my personal 15/22, it is an older model, and it is absolutely box-stock except for having mounted a low-power scope on it.

Anybody can do what they want, believe what they want, and say what they want. I'll be leaving mine in the safe until I hear what S&W says, and throwing no rocks at anyone in the meantime.

As an Appleseed instructor, can you find out if these 15-22s that had issues were box-stock, like yours? Seems to me that is the first question before banning a gun? No doubt the first question S&W will ask, so surely you folks know the answer.

Only time I've heard of the safety not working properly is when someone has changed out the trigger or grip, and not replaced the safety spring and/or detent properly. Easy to find discussion here where others have done just that. So do you know if this was questioned or verified? Had that gun been customized?

Once again, to me basic questions that have to be asked before completely banning a rifle. My assumption is y'all have asked these questions & verified these were stock guns... otherwise get your lawyers ready.

 

[didactic]

Doesn't it make since if the stock trigger was causing any issue, such as deciding to go auto or shoot on reset, that we would be hearing about it here? Since competition shooters are looking for a competitive edge, doesn't it make sense that maybe these guns causing these problems have been modified?

Why wouldn't Appleseed first verify these issues were caused by a stock gun, as opposed to one that has had trigger work done on it? At least to me, that would be where I would start.

At least some of the problems were with unmodified rifles with fairly low round counts on them.

I haven't seen where anybody in the Appleseed organization has called that model of rifle an "Antichrist," or anything similar. They're just erring on the side of safety, until we ALL can get a handle on how widespread the problem is. They did have another shooter on the line (next to the apparently malfunctioning rifle) injured, blessedly not seriously, and they have liability concerns. Is that so awful?

Remember - this is a TEMPORARY ban.

 

[tomcatt51]

Remember - this is a TEMPORARY ban.

The problem is that the damage you've done isn't TEMPORARY and will be very long lasting regardless of the outcome.

 

[VaTom]

Have owned my 15-22 for 2 1/2 years and have never had a problem. I clean it after every range visit. .22lr ammo can be pretty dirty.

If I recall correctly the owners manual specifically states not to use Remington Thunderbolt ammo in the M&P 15-22. There is a list of reccomended ammo in the owners manual.

 

[zymurgeist]

Appleseed is has unique safety concerns. Often they're dealing with a lot of people with no experience all at once. People who don't have the experience to recognize a malfunction or it's cause when it happens. Smith and Wesson isn't going to be damaged by a short pause while the problem is sorted out. You can bet your bippy that working with Appleseed will give them a promotional boost when they truthfully say the M&P 15-22 is "Appleseed Approved."

 

[huafist]

Ran approximately 300 rounds through my 15-22 at a steel match a week or so ago, not one single issue. Gun has close to 1,000 rounds through it.

 

[dingode]

My 15-22 probably has a few thousand rounds through it between cleanings, never had an issue. Same for my 10/22, all my Ruger MK pistols, and my S&W 22 Victory. One on the shooters that had an issue was shooting Thunderbolts, those **** rounds should be banned. Problems happen with .22s, they're a dirty round. This irks me as I'm going to an Appleseed in a month and though my 10/22 is going to be my main rifle, I was going to take the 15-22.

 

[NoJackAssZone]

I'd like to know what qualifies Appleseeds instructors to be instructors. From the interactions I've had I suspect the answer is "not much"...

Appleseed - How our Instructors Compare

Sorry genius, your in the no ******* zone

 

[NoJackAssZone]

The problem is that the damage you've done isn't TEMPORARY and will be very long lasting regardless of the outcome.

So let me get this correct, you are more worried about S&W than you are about safety? Hmmm.

I would hope this not adversely effect Smith and Wesson, as Appleseed is just trying to make them aware of a potential safety issue. They are not trying to hurt S&W in any way, but to ensure the safety of the shooters on their lines.

Appleseed is not trying to ruin anyone's business. Their goal is to let folks know the rifle is temporarily disallowed at Appleseed Events due to a potential safety issue until Smith & Wesson formally investigates the problem and issues an official corrective action if necessary.

There is a potential safety issue here reported by multiple persons in multiple states. Until the S&W investigates and adjudicates the issue, let's all be aware of it and be careful. Simple. What are there, a bunch of Smith and Wesson stock holders on the forum? Or is it just a confederacy of dunces?

 

[Kayback]

Appleseed - How our Instructors Compare

Sorry genius, your in the no ******* zone

*you're.

Let me get this straight, we are to set aside our own experience of ample rounds, trouble free, through our guns on the word of a handful of problems experienced by some shooters of unknown quality?

This is akin to banning a type of car because some people had crashes in them, despite the hundreds of thousands of miles driven by those who didn't.

If there is a safety issue Smith will do something about, even if for no other reason than they are the ones who will be sued if someone does get injured.

Comparing the number or reported instances to the number of 15-22s in use, you're probably more likely to get hit by lightning than to have it happen to you.

 

[zymurgeist]

There is a potential safety issue here reported by multiple persons in multiple states. Until the S&W investigates and adjudicates the issue, let's all be aware of it and be careful. Simple. What are there, a bunch of Smith and Wesson stock holders on the forum? Or is it just a confederacy of dunces?

Any Smith and Wesson stockholders want the issue dealt with swiftly. The downside of ignoring potential problems until they get to the national media and huge lawsuit stage is huge. Ask Remington about that one.

 

[RedNeck Jim]

Appleseed is not trying to ruin anyone's business. Their goal is to let folks know the rifle is temporarily disallowed at Appleseed Events due to a potential safety issue until Smith & Wesson formally investigates the problem and issues an official corrective action if necessary.

There is a potential safety issue here reported by multiple persons in multiple states. Until the S&W investigates and adjudicates the issue, let's all be aware of it and be careful. Simple. What are there, a bunch of Smith and Wesson stock holders on the forum? Or is it just a confederacy of dunces?

This sounds all nice but how is S&W supposed to formally investigate these issues if they didn't either confiscate those specific guns for testing or take detailed statements from the gun owner regarding if the gun had been customized?

We all know the AR platform is the most highly customized weapon out there. It is designed for idiots like me to swap out parts, even something like the trigger. I personally simply changed out the entire trigger group & put in a CMC module, but all you have to do is read here about all sorts of folks cutting & replacing trigger & hammer springs. Some folks grind & adjust the metal trigger parts.

So some 15-22 decides to go full auto at an Appleseed event. You seriously going to trust the statement from the owner that he didn't make adjustments to the trigger or do you think he might possibly lie to protect his own arse? My simple point is, Appleseed can't simply say these guns are dangerous without proper investigation. If the gun owner is allowed to take their gun home, how can S&W know what happened?

And by the way, if you are going to come on here & insult folks by calling names & questioning other's intelligence, you might want to go back to elementary school & retake your grammar class.

This is a classic:

Sorry genius, your in the no ******* zone

 

[GhostMutt]

It would be interesting to know how many other 15-22's shot at Appleseed events, possibly even the same events that these incidents happened at, that did not malfunction or cause safety concerns. Appleseed should have rightly banned the individual rifles that the accidents occurred with and noted the ammo used, the modifications that the user had made to the rifles and published these in the 'message'. Maybe they should also take their own form of responsibility in regards to safety,like separate shooting booths with a divider in between or ample distance between each shooter to help counteract such potential problems, which lets face can and will happen with any rifle.

I am just a little upset that my barrel is off getting the chop, otherwise i would have gone down the range post haste and enjoyed shooting with my 15-22 which i have done twice weekly for the past 2+ years, the only thing that annoys me about my 15-22 is when I am range officer and i have to put it down to clear stovepipes and FTE's with the 10/22 club guns.