It appears that there's a problem with the 15/22!

[tomcatt51]

I am not part of the Appleseed “management,” but I am a Shoot Boss for Appleseed. Shoot Bosses are the people who run the events, who are ultimately responsible for everything that happens at an event. I’d like to address some points from one particular post.

The only other rifles ever banned were all semiauto 17 HMRs. And that ban was permanent, in part due to an industry-wide recall on them.

There have been plenty of malfunctions on our lines. Every possible malfunction you can imagine – FTE, FTF, double feeds, duds, etc. Typical round counts at our events are 400-500 rounds in a weekend. We also shoot rain or shine, so the rifles see rain, mud, dirt and dust. This increases the likelihood of malfunctions.

I’ve even had a squib on my line that the shooter didn’t catch. She cleared the malfunction (as a squib usually causes a short stroke), chambered another round, and pulled the trigger. Fortunately, she wasn’t injured, but it scared the heck out of her. It bulged the barrel and receiver, and blew out the mag. It was a Ruger 10/22, she sent it back to Ruger (at their request) and they replaced her rifle at no charge.

But again, in all of these instances, no one was injured.

Yes, people are allowed to bring any rifles they want, as long as they’re below 8mm caliber. We can’t police every rifle for non-stock parts. Are you aware of any other shooting program that does? Does Mas Ayoob bounce your pistol out of a MAG40 class because it has an aftermarket trigger?

Have modified rifles caused issues? Yes, but not injuries. Personally, on several occasions, I’ve asked a shooter to remove their rifle due to repeated malfunctions/concerns. But I’ve never confiscated them. ;-)

Possibly. But the difference in this situation is that a shooter was injured. Seeing the common thread here? We’ve had tens of thousands of shooters come through our events. We’re proud of our safety record. Safety is absolutely paramount at Appleseed, and in an abundance of caution, the temporary ban was put in place.

If we had another shooter injured by a 15-22, how would that play out regarding lawyers and liability? As I tell my kids, this isn’t the way we’d like the world to be, it’s the way the world is. Every shooter, even observers, has to sign a liability waiver before they can participate. That’s just the way it is with insurance companies and lawyers.

This is simply preposterous. Appleseed was created under the philosophy of teaching Americans how to shoot milsurp rifles out to 500 yards. We LOVE centerfire rifles on our lines. Heck, at my last event I was excited because over half the rifles on my line were ARs. And we had one shooter using his Garand! But we also realistically acknowledge that centerfire rifles are expensive, and so is the ammo. Using a 22 gets one through the weekend much more economically. Plus, there aren’t a lot of ranges where one can shoot that far, so if we wanted to continue to grow, we had to scale our program down to fit more ranges with shorter distances. And that scaling down made 22 rifles practical substitutes.

There seems to be a misconception that Appleseed is a youth program, or only for new shooters. Are we family-friendly? Yes. Are we a youth program? No. We're an "everybody" program. We teach foundational marksmanship skills, very similar to what is taught by the US Marine Corps. Field-expedient rifle shooting, using nothing but your rifle and a sling. Regardless of skill level, Appleseed will make you a better shooter. I’ve had active-duty Marines attend an event and tell me on Sunday afternoon that they learned more in a weekend with us than they did at Parris Island. Kids especially benefit because they’ll learn good habits that will last them a lifetime. But mom and dad, and even grandma and grandpa will learn something, too.

We have hundreds of events every year all over the country, and thousands of shooters in attendance. It's not possible to report/track every malfunction. But again, to re-iterate, major safety issues are reported – squibs, OOB, anything that has the potential to cause injury. I believe Appleseed is acting fairly in this instance. S&W was contacted BEFORE the temporary ban was announced. And the AOC is continuing to work with S&W to reach a solution.

Thank you for promoting Appleseed. I'm sorry that you believe we're treating S&W unfairly. But I believe I’ve adequately addressed your concerns. Please feel free to contact me via email if you have any further concerns.

I can be reached via email at M I at appleseedinfo.org (the abbreiviation for Michigan).

Forgive me for wasting space but I quoted this to preserve it.

 

[tomcatt51]

SO basically if she had have been injured then you would have temporarily banned ALL Ruger 10/22's? Did you issue any warnings about the danger of Ruger 10/22's.? Did you contact Ruger about how safe their rifles are? Did you go on Rugers forum and tell all about how unsafe their rifles are?

Probably not...so once again the issue comes down to the fact that someone was injured....nothing more. Not the rifles fault, a freak accident that can happen with any rifle as your statement pointed out.

Can i ask what it is exactly that Appleseed expect S&W to do regarding this incident? Also did you contact the ammo maker, regarding their contribution to this awful but not too serious injury? Also did you question any safety measures that your Project could have in place which would render any such incident less likely to involve the injury of a second or third party. Such as something as simple as dividers between shooters.

Or just reasonable spacing between shooters...

I think you're right on. This is becoming clearer.

A shooter is injured by an OOB. Blame the rifle. Ban the line of rifles. Ignore the fact that you stack shooters on the firing line like cord wood.

A 15-22 goes full auto. Blame the rifle. Use the incident to rationalize your ban. Doesn't matter that it went full auto AFTER your "instructor" worked on it.

Thanks GhostMutt, I think we're getting a clearer picture.

 

[cavegeo]

I am quite shocked by this announcement as I have been planning to take my son and myself to shoot an upcoming event. As it appears that this organization has taken upon itself to determine that certain rifles are no longer fit to be used for their events, I feel that I would never attend any of their event ever.

I specifically chose to purchase an M&P 15/22 for my son due to its lightweight and adjustable stock. I had purchased a sling and attachment accessories just for this upcoming event. I even purchase a sling and attachment accessories for my rifle which happen to be a Ruger 10-22. Now I have owned the Ruger for over 20 years and it has been a very reliable rifle it just does not fit my son were as the M&P works very well for his size.

I feel that this organization seem to be overly cautious regarding certain model of rifles as I suspect that other rifles have probably had more issue over time than the M&P has since it is a rather new offer compared to other models of 22's. If there really is an issue I would think that it would become well know as with the use of Social Media even small event end up being posted on site such as this and discussed quite quickly.

 

[Kayback]

True about parts ging AWOL at high speed. I also think a bigger space or even one at a time on space limited ranges is a good thing. Some guns I have shot can kill 2 people, one with the bullet and one with the ejected empty case.

I think I'll take my thermometer to the range with me next time. The heat retention on the thin metal of the .22 case is much lower than that of, say, a 7.62x51mm with a thick web.

Getting rained on by brass isn't fun and it is distracting which can be a safety issues I'll happily admit.

 

[GM4spd]

I hope this gets corrected. I don't shoot Appleseed but an incident like this puts S&W in a bad light,although not
knowing all the details can also be unfair to S&W. I've never
had issue with my own 15/22 and I'm not giving it up,it's
my favorite 22 semi and let me say the most accurate 22
I've shot,right out of the box. I've never touched the sights
and it's shot all the bulk Ammo I can find. If I needed
a 22 semi I wouldn't hesitate to buy one. Pete

 

[mn_doggie]

Sorry but the system doesn't like the quote within a quote much. Some of your answers I agree with so i deleted them.

I am not part of the Appleseed “management,” but I am a Shoot Boss for Appleseed. Shoot Bosses are the people who run the events, who are ultimately responsible for everything that happens at an event. I’d like to address some points from one particular post.
'

Originally Posted by mn_doggie
So, in all of the Appleseed events to date, there has never been another reported case or cases of firearms malfunctioning? Not even anecdotally? There have never been any cases of squib loads or ammo issues?

There have been plenty of malfunctions on our lines. Every possible malfunction you can imagine – FTE, FTF, double feeds, duds, etc. Typical round counts at our events are 400-500 rounds in a weekend. We also shoot rain or shine, so the rifles see rain, mud, dirt and dust. This increases the likelihood of malfunctions.

I’ve even had a squib on my line that the shooter didn’t catch. She cleared the malfunction (as a squib usually causes a short stroke), chambered another round, and pulled the trigger. Fortunately, she wasn’t injured, but it scared the heck out of her. It bulged the barrel and receiver, and blew out the mag. It was a Ruger 10/22, she sent it back to Ruger (at their request) and they replaced her rifle at no charge.

But again, in all of these instances, no one was injured.

A few years ago supposedly 70,000 (28,000,000 rounds fired) people have gone thru the Appleseed program. With all the number of failures, there has been only one person injured. Yet, even in the number of events you been at you have seen, squibs, etc. I'm not buying that there have been no other reported injuries. This instance may be the worse.

I also find it interesting (per post 8 in this thread where additional malfunctions of the 15-22 were included in the rational for the ban) that similar info isn't tracked on the malfunctions of other brands. For instance, was there a form that you filled out for the squib at your event?


Quote:
Originally Posted by mn_doggie

People are allowed to bring, in some cases, highly modified (perhaps not by a qualified gunsmith) firearms without any kind of review by a qualified person and that's OK? And none of those have ever caused an issue?

Yes, people are allowed to bring any rifles they want, as long as they’re below 8mm caliber. We can’t police every rifle for non-stock parts. Are you aware of any other shooting program that does? Does Mas Ayoob bounce your pistol out of a MAG40 class because it has an aftermarket trigger?

It would be his right to do, so. I would believe, though, that he would be more selective and ban that particular modification rather than the entire firearm line. He, as an expert witness, seems to be more concerned with finding actual causes.

Have modified rifles caused issues? Yes, but not injuries. Personally, on several occasions, I’ve asked a shooter to remove their rifle due to repeated malfunctions/concerns. But I’ve never confiscated them. ;-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mn_doggie
I'll bet that if all issues were accurately reported there have been many, many more issues with some of the rifles that are more popular than the 15-22.

Possibly. But the difference in this situation is that a shooter was injured. Seeing the common thread here? We’ve had tens of thousands of shooters come through our events. We’re proud of our safety record. Safety is absolutely paramount at Appleseed, and in an abundance of caution, the temporary ban was put in place.

If we had another shooter injured by a 15-22, how would that play out regarding lawyers and liability? As I tell my kids, this isn’t the way we’d like the world to be, it’s the way the world is. Every shooter, even observers, has to sign a liability waiver before they can participate. That’s just the way it is with insurance companies and lawyers. So very true.

.
.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mn_doggie
The organization needs to come up with a reporting and formal process to ensure that all participants, manufacturers, etc. are treated fairly and safely.

We have hundreds of events every year all over the country, and thousands of shooters in attendance. It's not possible to report/track every malfunction. But again, to re-iterate, major safety issues are reported – squibs, OOB, anything that has the potential to cause injury. I believe Appleseed is acting fairly in this instance. S&W was contacted BEFORE the temporary ban was announced. And the AOC is continuing to work with S&W to reach a solution.

So here you say you have had reported OOB incidents before. Evidently at this point, there has only been one reported OOB incident for the 15-22. It happened to cause an injury. It gets banned.

How is your liability going to look next time another brand ends up creating an injury, and brand had previously reported OOB incidents and no associated ban?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mn_doggie
I have steered people to check out Appleseed events in the past. Until I hear that this is resolved and changes are made to ensure that all manufacturers are treated fairly, I will no longer do so.

I will also work to insist my local club range do a "temporary ban" on Appleseed events until they have their policies and procedures revised to ensure the safety of all.

Thank you for promoting Appleseed. I'm sorry that you believe we're treating S&W unfairly. But I believe I’ve adequately addressed your concerns. Please feel free to contact me via email if you have any further concerns.

I can be reached via email at M I at appleseedinfo.org (The abbreiviation for Michigan).

This whole incident has been brought into the public by Appleseed. It should be hashed out in the public IMO.

 

[AGoyette]

Rest assured, hot .22lr brass can hurt you. I will be more than willing to take pics of the scars on my right arm from 3rd degree burns from hot .22lr brass landing on my arm. Anyone who has had any freshly fired brass land and stay on them (any caliber) will tell you that it burns. Now that being said, I don't know what this has to do with Appleseed temp. banning the 15-22.

 

[AGoyette]

How in the world did that happen? Was he shooting in a bay that the brass bounced off of? Or on a line with too many shooters in close proximity?
No debate on the brass - it is definitely hot, at least when it leaves the chamber. How long it stays hot enough to cause a reaction could be another matter entirely, but I don't have any data on that.

I don't know about this incident, but I do know that I have had brass come into my stall from someone shooting next to me at the indoor range. It is very distracting to say the least. I ended up shooting when they were not.

 

[SWMP15Pks]

As has been mentioned, there has to be more to this we haven't heard.

I'm wondering what the rest of the story is.

Completely agree. So for now, how about showing some respect to your fellow shooters and countrymen who you so eagerly throw derogatory quotes around as range officers and instructors?

I have no dog in this fight; I've never been to an event, or talked to anyone that has. I don't yet own a 15-22. But I believe in respecting anyone who is willing to stand on that line. They already field all the criticisms that come from the left in this country! Then the do their best to teach folks who otherwise have may have no chance to find out the love and joy of actual marksmanship.

I'm appalled by the fact that you clearly recognize that you have nowhere near the complete picture yet show absolutely no hesitation to criticize and belittle an entire organization, it's leadership, employees, and volunteers.

Your insinuation that the instructor caused the run away is both irresponsible and presumptuous. Innuendo doesn't make fact sir.

Your posting of a picture off a website shows nothing more than a moment that could have been easily staged for the camera, and proves absolutely nothing about the lack of safety practices in and of itself.

Have you ever been to one of their events? How much room, on average, would you say you've seen between shooters on active lines? How many of the millions of rounds fired have caused brass burns at these events? And doesn't it make more sense that if it was much of an issue that they would deal with it at the time? I'm pretty sure no rifle up to 8mm is ejecting brass hot and fast enough to kill someone. SMH... yes, freak accidents happen but let's all be reasonable. We don't need to give the anti gun crowd more material.

What corrective action has the organization concluded needs to be made after this incident is rectified?

What did the discussion consist of between the manufacturer and the organization directly preceding the ban (temporary)?

We do, indeed desire and deserve more information, and I am sure when it is ready it will be presented.

Lets let the dust settle rather than wandering around deaf and blind slinging the arrows of assumption and presumption at our fellow enthusiasts. This does no one any good, and only further tarnishes the reputation of well meaning people.

 

[tomcatt51]

Your posting of a picture off a website shows nothing more than a moment that could have been easily staged for the camera, and proves absolutely nothing about the lack of safety practices in and of itself.

I didn't post the pic but it does appear to be the one on Project Appleseeds website.

You think that was staged? Look at the pic again. Look at the shoulder to shoulder targets downrange.

The rest of your post isn't worth talking about, again... We've been there.

 

[SWMP15Pks]

I didn't post the pic but it does appear to be the one on Project Appleseeds website.

You think that was staged? Look at the pic again. Look at the shoulder to shoulder targets downrange.

The rest of your post isn't worth talking about, again... We've been there.

Technically you are correct, though refer to Posts 89, followed by 90. I will concede the point.

I never said it was staged. Read again.

Thank you for the kind words.


Is your rifle safe? Great. Who cares what anyone else does at their range? Why all this animosity toward an organization that has the responsibility to protect thousands of people annually that you will probably never have anything to do with?

Your lack of a professional tone is offensive, childish, and unnecessary. It leads to misunderstandings and I believe intended inferred offense. Let's be men here and speak with respect, leaving everyone's character in tact; Including those of the men and women of Applseed.

I don't have an "orange hat" and thank God, or perhaps you'd call me out on that as well. I am not worried about what they decide to do with their ranges or events. I will however, respectfully allow the results of whatever investigation is done to be released before I start denigrating an organizations reputation. And I will continue to defend the good honor of the men you seem so haughtily ready to tear down, even after you admit you don't have all the information.

This part of my post is absolutely worth discussing, even if you don't like it.

Find a perfect range, one that has never had and never will have safety failures, and I'll be the first one to go there with you.

 

[tomcatt51]

This part of my post is absolutely worth discussing, even if you don't like it.

"Liking it" has nothing to do with it. Beating it to death does.

We've been there already and the only thing changing is the amount of name calling you're doing.

 

[GhostMutt]

I will however, respectfully allow the results of whatever investigation is done to be released before I start denigrating an organizations reputation.

It is a shame that the Dear Leaders of Project Appleseed are not allowing S&W that same courtesy before one of their own comes on this forum and starts denigrating what we all know to be a safe (as safe as any rifle is) rifle. Yet when questioned see that their own measures of prevention are too troublesome or costly to apply.

I still want to know what Project Deflection i mean Appleseed expect S&W to do regarding an investigation when they do not have the offending rifle to investigate.

Maybe we should all just buy the 10/22 LTR that the Appleseed instructor designed, as the Ruger is their favourite .22?

So let's say that S&W find in this investigation that indeed the 15-22 is a dangerous and poorly built rifle, what happens then...Total Recall? not the movie (i love that movie) but a total recall of one of the most popular selling .22 rifles of the last 3 years. Surely that can be the only conclusion....Is that not the ONLY option?

Just remember that internal memo to Appleseed instructors was first brought to our attention by an Appleseed instructor on our forum...hows that for denigrating before an investigation is concluded....

but once again....pretell how can S&W investigate a problem when the rifle in question is not available to be investigated...for all we know the owner may have tried to remove his flashhider with his rifle clamped in a gun butler.

 

[zymurgeist]

The post was simply to let people participating in Project Appleseed know what was going on. They're not denigrating anything. This isn't OMG YOUR PRODUCT SUCKS!!!!11111!!11! It's "is there a problem here? Can we talk with you about our experiences?"

 

[GM4spd]

Interesting about the shooter who drew blood on the arm. I live
in a warm ---can be downright hot climate but every time I go
to the range I wear LONG SLEEVE SHIRTS. Even with screening
on the ranges to protect from semi auto brass,I still take this
precaution because I've been hit with hot brass before. I've
been hit with 22 brass on pistol ranges with long sleeves and
wouldn't even notice. Not the perfect answer but maybe not
a bad idea. Pete

 

[tomcatt51]

The post was simply to let people participating in Project Appleseed know what was going on. They're not denigrating anything. This isn't OMG YOUR PRODUCT SUCKS!!!!11111!!11! It's "is there a problem here? Can we talk with you about our experiences?"

Really? From Project Appleseeds decree:

"EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY, THE USE OF SMITH AND WESSON M&P 15/22’S AT AN APPLESEED IS HEREBY BANNED UNTIL SMITH & WESSON FORMALLY INVESTIGATES THE PROBLEM AND ISSUES AN OFFICIAL CORRECTIVE ACTION. THE AOC WILL NOTIFY THE CADRE WHEN THIS BAN IS LIFTED".

That doesn't seem to read much like: "is there a problem here? Can we talk with you about our experiences?"

 

[Gary1911A1]

Really? From Project Appleseeds decree:

"EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY, THE USE OF SMITH AND WESSON M&P 15/22’S AT AN APPLESEED IS HEREBY BANNED UNTIL SMITH & WESSON FORMALLY INVESTIGATES THE PROBLEM AND ISSUES AN OFFICIAL CORRECTIVE ACTION. THE AOC WILL NOTIFY THE CADRE WHEN THIS BAN IS LIFTED".

That doesn't seem to read much like: "is there a problem here? Can we talk with you about our experiences?"

I agree. Sounds more like Appleseed is throwing S&W under the bus at least to me.

 

[TomAnderson]

I am not part of the Appleseed “management,” but I am a Shoot Boss for Appleseed. Shoot Bosses are the people who run the events, who are ultimately responsible for everything that happens at an event. I’d like to address some points from one particular post.

(Some stuff cut)

I can be reached via email at M I at appleseedinfo.org (the abbreiviation for Michigan).

So you're not management? Aren't you the guy in charge of Appleseed up here in Michigan? That sure sounds like management to me.

Michigan sounds like ground zero for the problems. Are you also the unnamed senior instructor who sold a rifle he believed was unsafe to some unsuspecting guy?

An interesting point was raised above. Appleseed designed some special Ruger 10-22. Also, you partnered with Marlin to produce a 795 with your name on it. How much money do you make off those?

What's really going on? Were you sent here by someone to blow smoke?

 

[Ed Fowler]

Really? From Project Appleseeds decree:

"EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY, THE USE OF SMITH AND WESSON M&P 15/22’S AT AN APPLESEED IS HEREBY BANNED UNTIL SMITH & WESSON FORMALLY INVESTIGATES THE PROBLEM AND ISSUES AN OFFICIAL CORRECTIVE ACTION. THE AOC WILL NOTIFY THE CADRE WHEN THIS BAN IS LIFTED".

That doesn't seem to read much like: "is there a problem here? Can we talk with you about our experiences?"

Whoever wrote that sure has a lot to learn!

 

[tulsacrittergitter]

Not Necessarily User Error

99 percent of all such incidents are directly attributable to operator error. Dirty firearms, improper trigger adjustment and such are not the fault of the rifle or its design.

Any such ban is an insult to the 15-22.

Yeah, except for the 15-22 that I purchased, took to the range the 2nd day that I had it, had an OOB which blew out my extractor. Somewhere in the process, I also lost my extractor plunger and spring. Well, I didn't notice that the extractor was missing after the OOB, and was getting several stovepipes, which melted the edge of the polymer ejection port. I sent it in to S&W, and they replaced the upper receiver, extractor, spring, and plunger. Also sent me an extra mag and some picatinny rails for my hand guard and some S&W swag. They had it a total of 9 days, and since I received it back last week, I have successfully put over 3,000 rounds through it without a single FTE, FTF, or misfire. It runs flawlessly. So, I wouldn't call "user error" as a rule of thumb. But you are right - 99% are result of user error - I just happened to be in the remaining 1%.

My 15-22 had less than 100 rounds through it when my "incident" occurred.