Is the 40 S&W dieing?

[Arik]

That's quite an interesting comment considering you posted a bunch of numbers to make your point -- which I then commented on without "adding" them. Since you are recommending to look up "DocGKR" -- I wonder what you have learned from this "expert"?

What I learned? Simply that in a good self defence round there is little difference between the 3 (4 if you want to count 357 sig) in real life shootings

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[QED]

What I learned? Simply that in a good self defence round there is little difference between the 3 (4 if you want to count 357 sig) in real life shootings

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There actually is little difference some 98% of the time in self-defense situations -- no matter whether you have a .22lr mini-revolver or a .30-06 with a 27" barrel. Take your pick and hope you don't encounter that rare 1-2% of self-defense situations where caliber/choice of round means the difference between life and death.

 

[Darkstar888]

Well, I'm always willing to get informed by any factually relevant statements and actually welcome them whenever I come across them. However, I don't deem anything that you posted as being relevant to invalidating my "uninformed" comment.







Sure, from a 4" barrel, 1200 fps is the rated velocity of this round. The terminal performance of this round, to have some relevance, should include gel calibration (it's perhaps not so common knowledge that gel viscosity affects penetration).





I actually am totally uninformed about where you got 825 fps MV for this round -- certainly wouldn't apply for a 4" barrel. In addition, .38 special +P can, unlike 9mm, utilize a 158 grain JHP at some 900 fps (while being within SAAMI) -- which will have as good or even somewhat better terminal performance in bare standard gel compared to a 9mm 124 gr. GD @ 1200 fps.

Here is a great ballistic test. Note the 9mm were all tested from a 3.5" barrel and the 40 from a G27. The GD 124 +P averaged 1141fps.
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

 

[QED]

Here is a great ballistic test. Note the 9mm were all tested from a 3.5" barrel and the 40 from a G27. The GD 124 +P averaged 1141fps.
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

Clear Ballistics gel doesn't have dynamic equivalence comparable to either soft tissue or 10% ordnance gel; in addition terminal results in this stuff are quite often not repeatable, meaning for similar inputs you get whole bunch of different outputs. It's for entertainment purposes only....

 

[Darkstar888]

Clear Ballistics gel doesn't have dynamic equivalence comparable to either soft tissue or 10% ordnance gel; in addition terminal results in this stuff are quite often not repeatable, meaning for similar inputs you get whole bunch of different outputs. It's for entertainment purposes only....

I was more posting for the velocity averages.

 

[QED]

I was more posting for the velocity averages.

Velocity averages that are given in those tests seem reasonable; there is not a substantial difference in velocities of these self-defense rounds when fired from 3.5" or 4.0" barrels, especially in 9mm and .40.

 

[Kruzen]

I think the FBI's decision on going back to the 9mm is largely based on complaints the receive from their porbees...the caliber of people joining the FBI are, in my opinion are softer, and less manly than in the 1970's. Most are lawyers and their first experience with handguns is at the FBI academy. Gee, this thing is too load, Oh gee, this gun kicks too much, oh gee, don't you have something in pink? I have and love my Shield 40 and, in fact, I shoot it better than my Vtac 9mm. There's no doubt the FBI went with the .40 S&W since the Miami shoot out where their issued hand guns 9mm or 38 special could not get the job done. I think they are making a big mistake going back to the 9mm to appease the new bread of agents. Just ask the old timers or LEO's who are competent.

 

[Jim NNN]

I took a few guns into my LGS a couple of weeks ago to see what he would take on trade towards a Ruger Single Six in .32 H&R Mag. He was up for most of them, but politely closed the box on my Ruger SR40c and shoved it back across the counter towards me. He said anything in .40 is a no go. It doesn't have the value or marketability of almost any other caliber....and one of the guns he did take on trade was in .32 S&W long!

Of course, there's an up side to this - I was able to buy a little used police surplus Smith and Wesson M&P .40 last year for essentially $299. Ten bucks extra for a hard case. There's really nothing wrong at all with .40 S&W. Most of us can't shoot it quite as accurately as 9mm, and .45 acp and 9mm pistols tend to cycle a bit more reliably, but it's an effective round and a practical choice.

Another .40 I got at a low price was a Taurus 740 in a form fitted Bulldog case with an extra extended mag. It was $220, which meant something like $190 for the gun, brand new. But anyone buying a .40 should really be looking at used, because of the low surplus prices.

 

[palmettostate1]

Not dying...dead. It is nothing more than a Kitsch caliber born out of a knee-jerk reaction. A small group of out-gunned cops with questionable marksmanship skills in Miami convinced everyone the 9mm was inadequate.

Manufacturers and marketers jumped on the bandwagon and created a new "wonder round" to save us all. The only people I know who still shoot it are those who had $3,000 USPSA guns built so they could make "major" without the risk of over-loading a 9mm case. Even with that I only know 3 of them and I shoot at 3 different clubs four times per month

Let it die and go away. My opinion of course.

 

[QED]

Not dying...dead. It is nothing more than a Kitsch caliber born out of a knee-jerk reaction. A small group of out-gunned cops with questionable marksmanship skills in Miami convinced everyone the 9mm was inadequate.


Let it die and go away. My opinion of course.

That's not at all factual. The 9mm ST round was placed nearly perfectly -- but, like some other 9mm rounds, it just ran out of energy and stopped short of impacting a very vital organ. Some of us would find it unacceptable to get killed despite nearly perfect placement -- hence something better than 9mm has been needed, like .40 for example.

 

[palmettostate1]

"Nearly perfectly"?

Why if it ran out of energy then and was deemed inadequate are so many agencies dropping it now and going back to 9mm?

 

[Arik]

As a recently retired FBI agent (and firearms instructor) I have a little actual knowledge of the Bureau's use of the 10mm, .40, and 9mm.

No wimpy agents were ever issued the mighty manly 10mm. The ammo guys started with a 10mm case and a 180 grain bullet and added powder until the bullet did what they wanted. This happened at about 950 fps. Then they said, Who wants to make us several million of these?

The only round issued to agents was the 180/950. I know internet folks love to picture nerdy lawyers and accountants whimpering and flinging Norma 200 grain Jeff Cooper loads hither and yon, but it didn't happen. Sorry.

(Also the lawyer and accountant thing hasn't been true since about 1950. About half of new agents are from the military, and there are plenty of former cops, too. To be completely honest, I did work with a guy who was a former HR manager at Sea World, but he was a shooting fool.)

The 10mm handgun died in the Bureau because of the recall of the 1076. By then the .40 was popular, and we went with that. By the way, I had a 10mm issued to me when I retired in June, but it was made by H&K and was full auto.

There is one reason and one reason only we went to the 9mm. The ammo is cheaper. The ammo budget was stagnant or cut every year I was an instructor - raided to pay for computers and the analysts who squint at them all day. If the 9 works as well as the 40 we might as well buy that.

Nobody had trouble qualifying with the 40s, even the girls. Nobody told them it was "snappy". Most will be carrying 40s for years while the 9s get phased in.

I think the FBI's decision on going back to the 9mm is largely based on complaints the receive from their porbees...the caliber of people joining the FBI are, in my opinion are softer, and less manly than in the 1970's. Most are lawyers and their first experience with handguns is at the FBI academy. Gee, this thing is too load, Oh gee, this gun kicks too much, oh gee, don't you have something in pink? I have and love my Shield 40 and, in fact, I shoot it better than my Vtac 9mm. There's no doubt the FBI went with the .40 S&W since the Miami shoot out where their issued hand guns 9mm or 38 special could not get the job done. I think they are making a big mistake going back to the 9mm to appease the new bread of agents. Just ask the old timers or LEO's who are competent.

Re read the above quote in case you missed it

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[Arik]

Not dying...dead. It is nothing more than a Kitsch caliber born out of a knee-jerk reaction. A small group of out-gunned cops with questionable marksmanship skills in Miami convinced everyone the 9mm was inadequate.

Manufacturers and marketers jumped on the bandwagon and created a new "wonder round" to save us all. The only people I know who still shoot it are those who had $3,000 USPSA guns built so they could make "major" without the risk of over-loading a 9mm case. Even with that I only know 3 of them and I shoot at 3 different clubs four times per month

Let it die and go away. My opinion of course.

Questionable marksmanship? Guess you've taken fire from a rifle and managed perfect shot placement each time?

They didn't go convincing anyone. Many didn't make it through that day.

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[dben002]

Dieing..??..No Losing interest and favor among all the improved calibers and newer handguns...Yes. The 40 will always have it's place, but that place is less crowded now..

 

[Arik]

That's not at all factual. The 9mm ST round was placed nearly perfectly -- but, like some other 9mm rounds, it just ran out of energy and stopped short of impacting a very vital organ. Some of us would find it unacceptable to get killed despite nearly perfect placement -- hence something better than 9mm has been needed, like .40 for example.

Matrix was shot in the head and neck early on, only to passed out.

Platt was shot in the right upper arm and the bullet went on to penetrate his chest, stopping an inch away from his heart. The autopsy found Platt’s right lung had collapsed and his chest cavity  contained 1.3 liters of blood. The bullet had to go through his upper arm first. He was later shot a few times in the face with one bullet severing the spinal cord. Only when the 6 th shot severed severed the spina cord again did he die




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[QED]

"Nearly perfectly"?

Sure, virtually all ballistic wound experts would agree that a bullet trajectory toward an aorta would be considered a "near perfect" placement-- as was the case in '86.

Why if it ran out of energy then and was deemed inadequate are so many agencies dropping it now and going back to 9mm?

That 9mm ST in '86 did run out of energy before impacting a very vital organ; there are references/books on this subject for those who care to be informed.
The often repeated notion that some 9mm fanatics feel the need to proclaim, namely that 9mm has become popular because it has become terminally equivalent to .40 cal -- is baseless. As others in this thread have pointed out, 9mm is cheaper, easier to shoot for many, and if an attacker is shot enough times (unrealistically assuming that an attacker will facilitate being repeatedly shot until incapacitated) even 9mm could be effective! If .40 cal didn't exist -- it would have to be invented.

 

[bob98366]

I only have 2 .40's, a Glock 22 with a flash light on it, and a Highpoint carbine.(oh shut up). Both reliable, hard hitting and accurate. Biggest advantage for me is that all of the police around here use .40's and I can pick up once fired brass by the bucket full. I hope that the guns do get cheaper. I'll buy them.

Love my hipoint carbine in 40. Goes bang every time, made in the USA and has a lifetime, no foolin' warranty.

 

[QED]

Matrix was shot in the head and neck early on, only to passed out.

He didn't kill any agents; he was, fortunately for the agents, knocked out early on from a hit to the head by a .38 LSWCHP.

Platt was shot in the right upper arm and the bullet went on to penetrate his chest, stopping an inch away from his heart. The autopsy found Platt’s right lung had collapsed and his chest cavity  contained 1.3 liters of blood. The bullet had to go through his upper arm first. He was later shot a few times in the face with one bullet severing the spinal cord. Only when the 6 th shot severed severed the spina cord again did he die




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Had that 9mm ST not stopped a few inches short, incapacitation time, due to ruptured aorta, would have been measured in seconds and the outcome undoubtedly would have been quite different. Many people can continue to fight with a collapsed lung, but hardly any can with ruptured aorta. The spinal cord injury was inflicted at the end, after two agents were killed.

 

[V0OBWxZS16]

Sure, virtually all ballistic wound experts would agree that a bullet trajectory toward an aorta would be considered a "near perfect" placement-- as was the case in '86.

That 9mm ST in '86 did run out of energy before impacting a very vital organ; there are references/books on this subject for those who care to be informed.
The often repeated notion that some 9mm fanatics feel the need to proclaim, namely that 9mm has become popular because it has become terminally equivalent to .40 cal -- is baseless. As others in this thread have pointed out, 9mm is cheaper, easier to shoot for many, and if an attacker is shot enough times (unrealistically assuming that an attacker will facilitate being repeatedly shot until incapacitated) even 9mm could be effective! If .40 cal didn't exist -- it would have to be invented.

Dove's shot ran out of steam because of inadequate bullet design and not because of some intrinsic inadequacy of the 9mm cartridge. New standards and testing protocols developed since then have resulted in a wide array of well-designed projectiles in all of the common duty calibers.

IMHO, 9mm has not become equivalent to the .40 -- the marginal difference in terminal potential among the common duty calibers has always been and always will be negligible.

Agent Dove fired two magazines (twenty rounds) and only landed one hit. That indicates to me that improved and ongoing training, better sights, and a smaller, more controllable, and higher-capacity cartridge are the appropriate answers.

 

[sheepdawg]

Yes. Fotay is dead. The commercial market follows the government.

Yeah kind of like the 1911. Sure don't see many of them anymore.