38/200 pix

[LOBO]

I have come across manifests for ships sunk, where they needed to list what had not arrived so that the British Purchasing Commission could reorder it. But they just list quantities, e.g. " 33 cases 3000 S. & W. Revolvers .38/200 Cal. with Spare Parts and Access. " which were lost when the Ostende, bound from New York to Liverpool on 17/1/43, hit a mine off the Isle of Mull and was beached, subsequently becoming a total loss.

Would you mind emailing me copies?

 

[LOBO]

I thought I would revive this old thread (I found it in Notable Thread Index)
This one Shipped to the British Purchasing Commision Nov. 25th, 1940. There are no proof stamps on it anywhere. So its impossible to know where it did its service to the British But it's not LNIB so I am pretty sure it saw action somewhere.

That is a beauty!

I have one like yours, but it does have the British proof marks on it. Just goes to show that you never know what you will come across

 

[Hamden]

Hello. I started this thread and have always wondered how my "South Africa" 38 S&W has no additional proof markings.

My letter from S&W says it was shipped May 3, 1940 and delivered to South Africa. My serial number 685267 makes it a close neighbor to LOBO's 685147 in this thread
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...8-s-w-6-south-african-contract-i-believe.html

Has any new information been discovered about how it is not proofed in any way by South Africa or Britain?

 

[Mk VII]

If it passed directly to a Commonwealth army there's no reason for it to be viewed/proved.

Likewise many British orders for matériel shipped directly to the seat of war (the Middle East) and got redistributed there. For instance the S.S. Agwimonte left New York City in convoy CD-20 for Durban and Saldanha Bay, bound for Suez, and was torpedoed by U-177 and sunk off Cape Agulhas, South Africa, 28-5-43. The manifest shows she carried, amongst other things, '600 S. & W. Revolvers cal.38/200 with Spares in 7 Cases, also 600 Revolvers in 7 Cases'.

 

[Hamden]

From it's excellent condition, no overseas markings, and being in Oregon, I can only guess that my 685267 was somehow removed from the original shipment, and never left the U.S.

Is there anyway the May 3, 1940 shipment to South Africa can be attached to a manifest?

 

[Mk VII]

The file I consulted was of cargoes that never reached their destination so they had to have a list of what didn't make it just to order more. If there are lists of cargoes that did make it, I haven't found them yet.

 

[LOBO]

The way I understood it, the South African Contract diverted guns were in 4" only. These are the guns that were shipped from S&W to Capetown, but didn't arrive since they were diverted back to England. These guns don't have the arrow & U mark on the hump of the backstrap.

Here is one that I have along with its factory letter,

This is one of the Union of South Africa pre-Victory models that made it to South Africa evidenced by the acceptance marking on the top of the backstrap.

 

[Absalom]

If it passed directly to a Commonwealth army there's no reason for it to be viewed/proved.
...

None of this happened to any guns shipped to Britain either. No proofing occurred and no marks were applied to any BSR's that were shipped to Britain and issued to British troops.

The proof marks and view marks commonly found are all the result of commercial proofing initiated after the war by whichever entity purchased these guns from the British government as surplus. Contrary to popular misconception, these guns did not need to be proofed to be sold by the government, but only if sold by a licensed dealer to a private customer. This is most clearly illustrated by Cogswell & Harrison's conversions, which were not proofed until after they had been converted to .38 Special, and bear the markings for that proof load.

 

[Hamden]

None of this happened to any guns shipped to Britain either. No proofing occurred and no marks were applied to any BSR's that were shipped to Britain and issued to British troops.

The proof marks and view marks commonly found are all the result of commercial proofing initiated after the war by whichever entity purchased these guns from the British government as surplus. Contrary to popular misconception, these guns did not need to be proofed to be sold by the government, but only if sold by a licensed dealer to a private customer. This is most clearly illustrated by Cogswell & Harrison's conversions, which were not proofed until after they had been converted to .38 Special, and bear the markings for that proof load.

So these guns did not receive their overseas marks until the were destined for surplus status. Then some did somehow escape even that. That makes sense.

Then either
1. My pistol escaped markings after service and somehow made it back to Oregon,
or
2. Somehow was removed from the May 3 shipment and never left.

Here is part of my letter

 

[PJGP]

The way I understood it, the South African Contract diverted guns were in 4" only. These are the guns that were shipped from S&W to Capetown, but didn't arrive since they were diverted back to England. These guns don't have the arrow & U mark on the hump of the backstrap.

Yes ,they were 4" guns Lebo. However, they were NOT shipped to South Africa and then diverted, they were shipped direct to England. Roy Jinks works from the factory records, which quite correctly show these revolvers as being part of a direct order from SA. The diversion was an agreement between England and SA, and happened after the guns left the factory. The lack of the arrow in U and associated Union Defence Force number is definitive proof that a particular revolver never came here.

Peter

 

[Absalom]

.......
Then either
1. My pistol escaped markings after service and somehow made it back to Oregon,
or
2. Somehow was removed from the May 3 shipment and never left.

In the absence of other evidence, I would assume it to be an unofficial war bring-back or post-war immigrant import back when nobody made a fuss about such things . And once in the country, who knows gun migration patterns? I bought a DSC Victory in Elgin, in the Wallowas, that shipped to the Louisville, Kentucky, Police in 1945.

 

[LOBO]

Yes ,they were 4" guns Lebo. However, they were NOT shipped to South Africa and then diverted, they were shipped direct to England. Roy Jinks works from the factory records, which quite correctly show these revolvers as being part of a direct order from SA. The diversion was an agreement between England and SA, and happened after the guns left the factory. The lack of the arrow in U and associated Union Defence Force number is definitive proof that a particular revolver never came here.

Peter

Thanks for the great info Peter!

 

[Mk VII]

Sorry Charlie and all, but I have not been near this forum for a while. Yes, they are all 4' 38 S&W.

However, yesterday I saw a 6" S/N 679920 in 38 Special with British Inspection stamp (but no other markings). It must be one of the first S&Ws that Britain purchased in a hurry around May 1940. Skennerton in "British Small Arms of World War 2" records 1139 6" ".38 S&W Military Police" from Britsh contract records. Just one problem with this gun I am afraid - someone drilled out the first part of the chambers to take the 38 S&W !@#$%^.

Peter

Many were so converted on arrival in Britain so that they would accept the service cartridge.

 

[PJGP]

Many were so converted on arrival in Britain so that they would accept the service cartridge.

I am fortunate to have an early 6" M&P that was made in 38 S&W. S/N 697923 6" has no non-factory markings except Broad Arrow over RAF on the RHS of the body. It also retains nearly all its original finish.

I have no idea how it came to be in South Africa, but of course many Royal Air Force aircrew trained here during WW II. My wife's late father (Navigator) was one.

Peter

 

[AlanDavid]

None of this happened to any guns shipped to Britain either. No proofing occurred and no marks were applied to any BSR's that were shipped to Britain and issued to British troops.

The proof marks and view marks commonly found are all the result of commercial proofing initiated after the war by whichever entity purchased these guns from the British government as surplus. Contrary to popular misconception, these guns did not need to be proofed to be sold by the government, but only if sold by a licensed dealer to a private customer. This is most clearly illustrated by Cogswell & Harrison's conversions, which were not proofed until after they had been converted to .38 Special, and bear the markings for that proof load.

Many early UK shipments ordered by the British Purchasing Commission were inspected at Enfield and received an Enfield mark on the frame. Some others were stamped RAF when issued to that organization.
As stated above British commercial proofs would be applied after release to the trade.
Regards
AlanD
Sydney

 

[Absalom]

Many early UK shipments ordered by the British Purchasing Commission were inspected at Enfield and received an Enfield mark on the frame. Some others were stamped RAF when issued to that organization.
As stated above British commercial proofs would be applied after release to the trade.
Regards
AlanD
Sydney

Indeed. My quote needs to be modified in that respect. From what I've been able to determine, the pre-duty inspection practice appears to have ceased at the latest with the Pre-Victory BSR's in the 900-range that were standardized to the Victory configuration (5", smooth stocks, utility finish).

The attached picture shows the Enfield marking (oddly, upside down) on a BSR I recently acquired, in the 767xxx range shipped in May 1941 which later ended up in Australian service.

 

[Hamden]

I replaced the photobucket kitties with postimage shots of my SA 38-200