5.56 very poor round for stopping power

Since we are talking FMJ non expanding bullets here, how is it that a .224 caliber bullet requires several shots to stop a bad guy but a .308 bullet (at only .08" larger diameter) can stop with one shot? I realize the 308 bullet is heavier but penetration is not the issue. How does the additional .08" and several hundred fps less velocity make the 308 so much superior?

Jim
 
Some of the posters have discussed it, but the M193 and the newer M262 lack the steel penetrator core. Add to that that they are stable ballistically until they hit something or someone. The 193 and 262 will begin to turn, and one of 2 things happens. It proceeds through, but now it's not the 224 diameter, but the projectile length, that causes the wound, or if it still has enough momentum it will turn, then fracture at the cannelure. Now the 2 halves are still proceeding, sideways, through the target. That's why the Viets called it the "little gun that makes the big hole". The green tip 855 is much more stable, due to the 1/7 twist, and the steel core prevents it from fracturing, leading to knitting needle wounds and waiting for enough blood to leak out of a 1/4 hole to cause shock.
 
This was an old issue long before the Vietnam War.

In fact, the US military justified the adoption of the high velocity (for the time) .30-40 Krag on the basis that the smaller bullet would tumble and inflict wounds as significant as the much larger .45-70.

The Brits actually researched the effect of bullets tumbling in battle rifles prior to WWI and they found that the effect was maximized at .276" at the 2600-2800 fps velocities of the day. Since they referenced land diameter not groove diameter, they were in fact talking about .280" / 7mm.

That drove their decision to go with .276 as the caliber for their new battle rifle, which was however never adopted with WWI looming on the horizon and then after the war was canceled given the millions of rounds of .303 in storage. However, the experiments with bullet tumbling further drove their intention to adopt the .280 British in the FN FAL and as the standard NATO round.

However, the powers that be in the US wanted to stay with a full power .30 caliber round, in part because we had lot of tooling for the .30-06. The Brits tried to compromise with the ..280/30 which used the same head size as the .30-06 and could have been made on existing tooling, but we stuck with the .7.62x51mm NATO/.308 Win - and forced the choice on the rest of NATO.

Then, to add insult to injury, within a few years we started developing the 5.56mm cartridge as we discovered the Brits were right as the full power 7.62 was a poor choice for full auto weapons.

In order to justify the adoption of the much smaller caliber, the military pointed out logistic advantages of the smaller round, but also dusted off the old "bullet tumbling" argument to show that the smaller 5.56mm round had sufficient lethality.

There were some problems with that however, and they only got worse over time.

First it was a bit misleading as the M80 ball ammo used in the M14 tumbled at reasonably short ranges as well.

Second, Eugene stoner used a Sierra designed bullet in the original .223 cartridge to achieve better retained velocity to pass a 300m penetration test, as well as to reduce stability and maximize the fragmentation and tumbling effects of the bullet at normal combat ranges.

However, when the military put the round in production they used a shorter Remington designed bullet that lost much more velocity. This created the pressure problems with the XM193 round as that lower BC bullet had to be driven faster to meet the penetration standards at 300m. The shorter bullet was also more stable and would not tumble at as long a range.

Third, the M16 was designed to use a 1/14" rifling twist which barely stabilized the 55 gr FMJ bullets used. In arctic testing it was not adequately stabilizing the bullet so a faster 1/12" twist was adopted, which again reduced the tumbling range.

Fourth, generally speaking, the shorter Remington designed bullet in the M193 ball round needs a velocity of about 2700 fps to fragment. This fragmentation effect was an added bonus over and above just tumbling. The original 20" M16 and M16A1 could generate that 2700 fps velocity out to a pretty credible 190-200 meters. However that range gets shorter as barrel length gets shorter.

Fifth, the adoption of the M855 round using the 62 gr SS109 projectile reduced the muzzle velocity in the 20" M16A2, which also shortened the fragmentation and tumbling ranges of the combination. That only got worse as the 14.7" M4 was adopted give it's substantially lower muzzle velocity. Worse, the 1-7 twist in the M16A2 was adopted to stabilize the much longer M856 tracer round, and was over kill for the M855 round - where 1-9 was sufficient. This over stabilization doesn't help.

The end result is that the original 190-200m fragmentation range for the M193 / M16A1 combination has decreased significantly to only 45-50 meters in the M4.

The round will still tumble without fragmenting down to about 2600 fps, but that only adds another 50m or so.

----

Barrel lengths and ranges that will still produce 2700 fps.

20” Barrel
M193 190-200m
M855 140-150m

16” Barrel
M193 140-150m
M855 90-95m

14.7” Barrel
M193 95-100m
M855 45-50m

11.5” Barrel
M193 40-45m
M855 12-15m

----

Soft point bullets on the other hand are generally regarded as a more reliable wounding mechanism due to greater penetration, so for law enforcement and civilian uses where they are allowed, they are a much better option when range is a factor as they are less dependent on a minimum velocity.

In that regard, I have no serious reservations about using an AR-15 with a good soft point bullet at any reasonable range.

However, given that self defense shooting also means very short ranges, I'm also not concerned about the velocity loss in 16" barrel, and in fact my go to carbine has an 11.5" barrel which only generates about 2750 fps at the muzzle. I'm also not concerned with using M193 ammo either for home defense as at social shooting distances it will fragment just fine.
 
NATO outlawed HP bullets ........only "Ball" type bullets can be used.

The M1 and M14 were good weapons but the military wanted more fire power. Enter the M-16, stage left.

I believe it was the Haig Convention much before NATO was ever conceived. I also believe the United States never formally signed on to it and we only use FMJ bullets as a courtesy to our allies that did.
 
Thanks, but I'll stick with M193 ball out of a 16" barrel within a 100 meter engagement distance. ;)

4212874291_6774d9c7cc.jpg


B & T Ammo Labs Fragmentation Experiment #1
 
Bullet construction and shot placement trumps everything. If you kill enough things with a variety of calibers you will come to the conclusion a bigger bullet is always more effective.

The military rifle caliber choice involves more than what is the most lethal caliber but factors like how well can you shoot it, recoil and follow up shots and how many rounds you can carry. Select fire whether its bursts or full auto are also a factor.
 
You can get attention.......

....by making outrageous statements that are more opinion than fact. It makes me want to scan the article so I suppose the author wins in the publicity department.

Anyway, ball ammo is the culprit much more than the caliber. You get the same complaints with 9mm ball ammo. IMHO ball ammo stinks for stopping someone crazed and determined to attack you, but if I got hit with one round I'd stop what I was doing, fall down and yell, "I'm hit... MEDIC!"


PS I remember hearing that if you got shot in the shoulder with an M-16 the bullet would whizz around and could even come out of your foot. This was because the bullet 'tumbled'.
 
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I found it amusing that the author complained about the early 'incredulous' field-reports from Vietnam then repeats "At 30 yards, I hit him with a blast of double ought buck. It picked him up off his feet and he didn't get up again." without comment.

One known issue that affects ball rounds is "fleet yaw". Bullets that strike perfectly perpendicular are slow to upset and fragment and may exit before this can take place. Bullets that strike at a significant angle of attack upset and fragment early. This results in inconsistent terminal effects depending on the rifle, ammunition, range, and shot placement.

Human beings taking several rounds to the torso and being able to continue fighting for a time is normal. It's just human physiology that unconsciousness due to blood loss can take 10-15 seconds even after a perfect hit to the heart and pulmonary arteries.

Missing when the shooter believes they hit, ignorance of the actual effects of bullets, and confirmation bias tend to support the idea of inadequate terminal effect.

You are not limited to military ball and can stock a supply of quality barrier blind JSP or JHP instead. Do that and stop worrying.
 
I heard the Military has kept the 5.56 round because it always takes out three men...one guy with the hole in him...and two others to carry him away...

...although I do own a mini 14...my go to is a semi-auto M14...or a couple of other choices that fire 7.62 x 39 ...

...a Jeff Cooper quote...

"The 223 (5.56 x 45 mm) cartridge is inadequate for anything bigger than varmints, therefore the designation of the Ar-15/M-16 as "poodle-shooter"

...(and I believe that he was referring to a "toy" poodle)...
 
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They tried to "improve" on the original by going to a heavier bullet and speeding up the twist. At 2500 fps a 62 gr from a 1/7 barrel is spinning about 250,000 rpm (no, I didn't break out the calculator. Correction in 5...4...3...2...) Joe.
 
Guess nobody has told all the dead critters and enemy
combatants that 5.56 is not deadly and doesn't have
"stopping power".
As stated previously, If you use a good bullet that is not a
FMJ this round is deadly for anything up to "around" 200 pounds.
Fortunately we as civilians are not limited to strictly shooting
ball ammo.
As you move to bigger game of course i would move up in
bullet weight and diameter.
That's the thing about gun articles. Lot of opinions out there.
I wouldn't hesitate to shoulder one of my AR's in 5.56 if
the SHTF, or if I needed a Deer for the meat.
Think bullet placement.


Chuck
 
5.56 very poor round for stopping power.

Hey Guys, please read the following article. It pretty much states the 5.56 is basically a worthless round that is a poor shooting platform for stopping the bad guy.

Stopping power. Stopping the bad guy. Worthless round. Whew.

Hmmm. A head shot with a 55-grain bullet traveling at a bit over 3200fps...would that equate with "stopping power"?

Or maybe a 3-round burst in the chest cavity? Would that qualify as "stopping power"?

I'm gonna go out on a limb here with a WAG and say yes, I believe that's stopping power. I could be wrong. I often am.
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