5.56 very poor round for stopping power

[marathonrunner]

Hey Guys, please read the following article. It pretty much states the 5.56 is basically a worthless round that is a poor shooting platform for stopping the bad guy. It sites many examples of soldiers in battle who had to shoot the bad guy 5 sometimes 6 times before they would go down. Maybe I should have went with .308 for SHTF but this article really concerns me.

How about 5.56 HP or SP? Would that make it close to a .308?


Articles: The Last 'Big Lie' of Vietnam Kills U. S. Soldiers in Iraq

 

[patrickd]

That's because .224" FMJ only poke a tiny hole straight through. Switch to a SP in your AR and it's a complete different story.

 

[Brasky]

Judging a round by its "stopping power" completely destroys any credibility you had in your first post.

Fmjs aren't ideal for unarmored flesh in any caliber

 

[TANKLEGACY]

I used 5.56 in the military, "stopping power" only counts when you can place perfect shots under a high stress environment....because in essence...all a .223/556 is, is a really fast 22LR.

Though we could place perfect shots with our M4A1...none of us really cared for them...all our personal long rifles are AR10's...

...most of us felt, the AR15 platform is a good childs or womans gun...lol

 

[Muss Muggins]

Don't you own a couple dozen AR15 style rifles . . . ?

Hey Guys, please read the following article. It pretty much states the 5.56 is basically a worthless round that is a poor shooting platform for stopping the bad guy. It sites many examples of soldiers in battle who had to shoot the bad guy 5 sometimes 6 times before they would go down. Maybe I should have went with .308 for SHTF but this article really concerns me.

How about 5.56 HP or SP? Would that make it close to a .308?


Articles: The Last 'Big Lie' of Vietnam Kills U. S. Soldiers in Iraq

 

[MichiganScott]

It's an ammunition problem. 5.56 NATO really doesn't wound much unless the bullet yaws and breaks up in flesh.The M855 doesn't begin to yaw until after it has penetrated a body. It's even worse with a short barrel and reduced velocity. The old M183 would yaw faster and sometimes would actually yaw in a body. A 77gr OTM makes the AR15 a much more effective platform than either.

 

[dusty3030]

Since we're talking about killing and self defense and all at short range if you shoot someone with a 5.56 or a 7.62 NATO is really just a matter of personal preference as a center mass or cranial hit with either will generally cause the offending party to quit doing whatever it is they were doing that made you decide to shoot them in the first place.

 

[DanWales]

5.56

I'm confused isn't this the same round that has probably put a couple million people in the ground ??

The same round that lots of people are wanting to shoot animals with now, that are tougher than a humans.

Now that they are cheap to shoot about everyone I know has one.

If I had to shoot a human or larger animal and make it a drop shot .... for sure the .308 or 06 would be my choice.

No argument intended but it's a nasty little round.

Dan

 

[CATI1835]

Give me a technical definition of "stopping power". Don't tell me something your Daddy, or uncle, or Bubba told you. A scientific definition please.

 

[DocB]

My son has had two combat tours over the past 10 years. He carried an M4 and said that they really didn't want us to kill anybody The 5.56 is not and never will be a self defense round. As stated above by another poster, it's a 22 LR going really fast. Although, one must remember, a wounded enemy is much more trouble for the enemy than a dead enemy.

 

[Triathloncoach]

What happens when AR-15 rifle bullets tear through the human body – BGR

Some quotes from above article

"One looks like a grenade went off in there," University of Arizona trauma surgeon Peter Rhee told Wired when comparing the damage done by AR-15 bullets and 9mm handgun bullets. "The other looks like a bad knife cut."

The reason that happens is pretty simple, and it's explained by physics. The bullet from an AR-15 rifle leaves the muzzle at three times the speed of a handgun bullet. That means it has plenty of energy to "distribute" inside the body upon collision.

It can disintegrate three inches of leg bone, turning it to "dust" according to Donald Jenkins, a trauma surgeon at the University of Texas Health Science Center. "The liver looks like a jello mold that's been dropped on the floor," if hit by the same bullet, Jenkins says. The exit would can be the size of an orange.

Comparatively, handgun bullets can be stopped by flesh and bone, and can pass through the body only to remain stuck in the skin.

 

[eb07]

My federal bonded 62gr jsp begs to differ.

 

[marathonrunner]

What happens when AR-15 rifle bullets tear through the human body – BGR

Some quotes from above article

"One looks like a grenade went off in there," University of Arizona trauma surgeon Peter Rhee told Wired when comparing the damage done by AR-15 bullets and 9mm handgun bullets. "The other looks like a bad knife cut."

The reason that happens is pretty simple, and it's explained by physics. The bullet from an AR-15 rifle leaves the muzzle at three times the speed of a handgun bullet. That means it has plenty of energy to "distribute" inside the body upon collision.

It can disintegrate three inches of leg bone, turning it to "dust" according to Donald Jenkins, a trauma surgeon at the University of Texas Health Science Center. "The liver looks like a jello mold that's been dropped on the floor," if hit by the same bullet, Jenkins says. The exit would can be the size of an orange.

Comparatively, handgun bullets can be stopped by flesh and bone, and can pass through the body only to remain stuck in the skin.

Grisly! I get people telling me all the time oh .308 is way better you got a mouse gun. blah blah blah

 

[Nevada Ed]

NATO outlawed HP bullets ........only "Ball" type bullets can be used.

The M1 and M14 were good weapons but the military wanted more fire power. Enter the M-16, stage left.

 

[eb07]

NATO outlawed HP bullets ........only "Ball" type bullets can be used.

The M1 and M14 were good weapons but the military wanted more fire power. Enter the M-16, stage left.

Myth: NATO banned jhp

U.S. Army Wants Hollow-Point Ammo for New Pistol, Not for the M9 | Military.com

 

[murphydog]

The laws of physics haven't changed in the past 12 years since this article was written, but your choice of ammunition and degree of practice/training may make a difference. Choose wisely.

 

[Arik]

Hey Guys, please read the following article. It pretty much states the 5.56 is basically a worthless round that is a poor shooting platform for stopping the bad guy. It sites many examples of soldiers in battle who had to shoot the bad guy 5 sometimes 6 times before they would go down. Maybe I should have went with .308 for SHTF but this article really concerns me.

How about 5.56 HP or SP? Would that make it close to a .308?


Articles: The Last 'Big Lie' of Vietnam Kills U. S. Soldiers in Iraq

It's true. Plenty of times soldiers had to shoot 5 or 6 times to kill a bad guy. However, plenty of people have been shot just as much by bigger and badder rounds and lived to tell. There are also plenty of stories from the current war where bad guys took more than one shot from a 50BMG before they laid down and died.

HP is much better but 556 isn't exactly a wimp of a round

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

 

[phonejack]

About 20 years ago there was arguing back and forth about 5.56 vs. 7.62. Clint Smith pretty well ended that by stating "the bullet has to do something when it gets there". I also had a friend whose son (Marine, sand box 2 tours) said that with a 7.62 you only have to shoot them once. Ball ammo of course.

 

[Nevada Ed]

Eb07;

That article is about the 9mm pistol not the M-16 rifle.

As of yet, combat troops can not use JHP until the 2018 bill passes.

Then maybe the JHP bullet might be used for the troops in battle, in the M9 pistol.

 

[eb07]

Still a myth. Nothing was signed. Just a guideline. Never had to follow by any treaty, law, or regulation.

Just a parroted myth like the 45 knocked people down or the soldiers used to throw Garand clips to simulate the ping

 

[laytonj1]

Since we are talking FMJ non expanding bullets here, how is it that a .224 caliber bullet requires several shots to stop a bad guy but a .308 bullet (at only .08" larger diameter) can stop with one shot? I realize the 308 bullet is heavier but penetration is not the issue. How does the additional .08" and several hundred fps less velocity make the 308 so much superior?

Jim

 

[kpoesq369]

Some of the posters have discussed it, but the M193 and the newer M262 lack the steel penetrator core. Add to that that they are stable ballistically until they hit something or someone. The 193 and 262 will begin to turn, and one of 2 things happens. It proceeds through, but now it's not the 224 diameter, but the projectile length, that causes the wound, or if it still has enough momentum it will turn, then fracture at the cannelure. Now the 2 halves are still proceeding, sideways, through the target. That's why the Viets called it the "little gun that makes the big hole". The green tip 855 is much more stable, due to the 1/7 twist, and the steel core prevents it from fracturing, leading to knitting needle wounds and waiting for enough blood to leak out of a 1/4 hole to cause shock.

 

[Rick_A]

Depends on the range, ammunition, and most importantly shot placement.

You know...the basic mechanisms for any external ballistics.

 

[BB57]

This was an old issue long before the Vietnam War.

In fact, the US military justified the adoption of the high velocity (for the time) .30-40 Krag on the basis that the smaller bullet would tumble and inflict wounds as significant as the much larger .45-70.

The Brits actually researched the effect of bullets tumbling in battle rifles prior to WWI and they found that the effect was maximized at .276" at the 2600-2800 fps velocities of the day. Since they referenced land diameter not groove diameter, they were in fact talking about .280" / 7mm.

That drove their decision to go with .276 as the caliber for their new battle rifle, which was however never adopted with WWI looming on the horizon and then after the war was canceled given the millions of rounds of .303 in storage. However, the experiments with bullet tumbling further drove their intention to adopt the .280 British in the FN FAL and as the standard NATO round.

However, the powers that be in the US wanted to stay with a full power .30 caliber round, in part because we had lot of tooling for the .30-06. The Brits tried to compromise with the ..280/30 which used the same head size as the .30-06 and could have been made on existing tooling, but we stuck with the .7.62x51mm NATO/.308 Win - and forced the choice on the rest of NATO.

Then, to add insult to injury, within a few years we started developing the 5.56mm cartridge as we discovered the Brits were right as the full power 7.62 was a poor choice for full auto weapons.

In order to justify the adoption of the much smaller caliber, the military pointed out logistic advantages of the smaller round, but also dusted off the old "bullet tumbling" argument to show that the smaller 5.56mm round had sufficient lethality.

There were some problems with that however, and they only got worse over time.

First it was a bit misleading as the M80 ball ammo used in the M14 tumbled at reasonably short ranges as well.

Second, Eugene stoner used a Sierra designed bullet in the original .223 cartridge to achieve better retained velocity to pass a 300m penetration test, as well as to reduce stability and maximize the fragmentation and tumbling effects of the bullet at normal combat ranges.

However, when the military put the round in production they used a shorter Remington designed bullet that lost much more velocity. This created the pressure problems with the XM193 round as that lower BC bullet had to be driven faster to meet the penetration standards at 300m. The shorter bullet was also more stable and would not tumble at as long a range.

Third, the M16 was designed to use a 1/14" rifling twist which barely stabilized the 55 gr FMJ bullets used. In arctic testing it was not adequately stabilizing the bullet so a faster 1/12" twist was adopted, which again reduced the tumbling range.

Fourth, generally speaking, the shorter Remington designed bullet in the M193 ball round needs a velocity of about 2700 fps to fragment. This fragmentation effect was an added bonus over and above just tumbling. The original 20" M16 and M16A1 could generate that 2700 fps velocity out to a pretty credible 190-200 meters. However that range gets shorter as barrel length gets shorter.

Fifth, the adoption of the M855 round using the 62 gr SS109 projectile reduced the muzzle velocity in the 20" M16A2, which also shortened the fragmentation and tumbling ranges of the combination. That only got worse as the 14.7" M4 was adopted give it's substantially lower muzzle velocity. Worse, the 1-7 twist in the M16A2 was adopted to stabilize the much longer M856 tracer round, and was over kill for the M855 round - where 1-9 was sufficient. This over stabilization doesn't help.

The end result is that the original 190-200m fragmentation range for the M193 / M16A1 combination has decreased significantly to only 45-50 meters in the M4.

The round will still tumble without fragmenting down to about 2600 fps, but that only adds another 50m or so.

----

Barrel lengths and ranges that will still produce 2700 fps.

20" Barrel
M193 190-200m
M855 140-150m

16" Barrel
M193 140-150m
M855 90-95m

14.7" Barrel
M193 95-100m
M855 45-50m

11.5" Barrel
M193 40-45m
M855 12-15m

----

Soft point bullets on the other hand are generally regarded as a more reliable wounding mechanism due to greater penetration, so for law enforcement and civilian uses where they are allowed, they are a much better option when range is a factor as they are less dependent on a minimum velocity.

In that regard, I have no serious reservations about using an AR-15 with a good soft point bullet at any reasonable range.

However, given that self defense shooting also means very short ranges, I'm also not concerned about the velocity loss in 16" barrel, and in fact my go to carbine has an 11.5" barrel which only generates about 2750 fps at the muzzle. I'm also not concerned with using M193 ammo either for home defense as at social shooting distances it will fragment just fine.

 

[amazingflapjack]

I still side with Col. Cooper. Would not have one-or anything with direct impingement operating system in any caliber. The best all around Infantry rifle is the AK-47 7.62X39.

 

[patrickd]

NATO outlawed HP bullets ........only "Ball" type bullets can be used.

The M1 and M14 were good weapons but the military wanted more fire power. Enter the M-16, stage left.

I believe it was the Haig Convention much before NATO was ever conceived. I also believe the United States never formally signed on to it and we only use FMJ bullets as a courtesy to our allies that did.

 

[mojave30cal]

I certainly wouldn't want to be hit any where on my bod with
a 5.56 fmj round!

 

[CoMF]

Thanks, but I'll stick with M193 ball out of a 16" barrel within a 100 meter engagement distance.

B & T Ammo Labs Fragmentation Experiment #1

 

[jinx]

The US Army invited me to a war once. Issued me a 22 caliber rifle to fight with. The enemy had 30 caliber. I am never going to war again with less than .308

 

[Leonard]

Bullet construction and shot placement trumps everything. If you kill enough things with a variety of calibers you will come to the conclusion a bigger bullet is always more effective.

The military rifle caliber choice involves more than what is the most lethal caliber but factors like how well can you shoot it, recoil and follow up shots and how many rounds you can carry. Select fire whether its bursts or full auto are also a factor.