Model 57-1 with strange marks & Flaming bombs

[model3sw]

Model 57-1 6" Target with strange marks (import ?) & Flaming bombs

Found one of my 57-1, 41 Magnums from appx late 1970s early 1980s manufacture, in 99% condition. It has proofs and stamps on the underside of barrel that read:

"Akah" followed by small "a" , followed by a small "h" followed by the the image of a 5 point star stamp, followed by sideway capital "Y", a sideway capital "P", then the image of a Flaming Bomb with a fancy script, capital " L" inside it ... and a few other undecipherable little squiggles.

Also had same flaming bomb on the face of the cylinder (and a X ) and the same flaming bomb on the bottom of frame directly in front of the trigger guard.

Some older links here suggest German import marks.

Can anyone please clarify or help identify these marks ?

 

[max]

I don't know these marks, but the gun could have been sold through a gun club or PX in Germany. If so, it would have had German proof marks. WISCO was the name of the German importer I believe.

 

[mojave30cal]

Can you post some pictures?

 

[2152hq]

W German importer and proof marks I suspect.

AKAH is the importer into W Germany. The letters stand for Albrecht Kind,,a long time German company going back decades.
W German proof law required that the importing companys name or registered Logo or trademark be stamped on the gun before commercial sale.

The 'flaming bomb' mark I can only guess is the Proof House stamp and most probably one from the Kiel Proof facility.
Eckernforde Proof facility was separate from but considered part of Keil Proof till about '53. After that Eckernforde got it's own proof mark,,looks more like a single oakleaf.
The other small letters and the 5pt star I can't recall anything on at the moment.

 

[model3sw]

I found this old thread (akah, flaming bomb with L)

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-...elp-identify-marks-please.html?highlight=Akah

and this:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-re...production-first-purchase.html?highlight=Akah

 

[2152hq]

I've never known AKAH (Albrecht Kind) to be from anywhere other than Germany,,they did and still do import and export business all over the world.
But the proof mark being that of the Belgian definitive nitro proof for a Foreign made firearm is most likely the right answer for the Flaming bomb w/L in the center.,,not a WG proof house like I guessed.

Sounds like AKAH was making use of Belgiums less expensive Govt proof house at Liege for getting the manditory proof done to imported arms.
W German proof laws recognized & accepted the Govt proofing of Belgium (as well as Spain and Italy). Just saving a few Marks I guess.


The other small markings would be the Belgian proof date code and the proof controller ID.

 

[Absalom]

This would be easier with some pictures. The old linked threads unfortunately didn't have any either.

I presume the "Akah" and the flaming bomb look like in the picture I attached? I saved this some time ago in my curiosity file.

The Belgian nitro proof is a flaming bomb, but at least the one on the Akah-marked gun in my picture does not look similar enough for me to be comfortable with making a positive ID. If the OP's bomb does have the cursive L recognizable, that would be more definite.

Albrecht Kind had and still has extensive connections to other European countries, and their stamp does not necessarily indicate this gun was sold in Germany. The flaming bomb is definitely not a German proof mark. It is not correct that West Germany or Germany at any time required importer markings on non-German guns, so it seems more likely, in the absence of German proofs, that Akah dealt in these guns in another country, which did require such marks.

 

[Daimler1989]

Hi,

as beforementioned, AKAH is the importer stamp of Albrecht Kind, Gummersbach W-Germany, a long time importer of S&W. The "flaming bomb" should be the belgian proof mark of Liège. AKAH is no longer importer as at some point WISCHO took over (now followed by WAIMEX). If the gun has no further foreign marks in the yoke and under the barrel, it was proof fired in Belgium and then there is no other proof mark necessary for sale in some w-european countries, include Germany. As far as I know, imported guns are shipped to different proof houses depending on capacities. German proof marks used to show the year of proof with a two digit number, now replaced by a code.

Most guns from 1970/80s I have seen i Germany had German proof marks with the two digits. maybe your gun was imported years after manufacture and proof fired in Belgium. Then later went back to US again...

regards from Germany
Ulrich

 

[model3sw]

This would be easier with some pictures. The old linked threads unfortunately didn't have any either.

I presume the "Akah" and the flaming bomb look like in the picture I attached? I saved this some time ago in my curiosity file.

The Belgian nitro proof is a flaming bomb, but at least the one on the Akah-marked gun in my picture does not look similar enough for me to be comfortable with making a positive ID. If the OP's bomb does have the cursive L recognizable, that would be more definite.

Albrecht Kind had and still has extensive connections to other European countries, and their stamp does not necessarily indicate this gun was sold in Germany. The flaming bomb is definitely not a German proof mark. It is not correct that West Germany or Germany at any time required importer markings on non-German guns, so it seems more likely, in the absence of German proofs, that Akah dealt in these guns in another country, which did require such marks.

The flaming bomb is as per your research, the #7 mark you show.

 

[2152hq]

"... It is not correct that West Germany or Germany at any time required importer markings on non-German guns, ..."

My source was the Standard Directory of Proof Marks (Gerhard Wernsberger)

West Germany Proof Law 1968 changes:
Markings-Each gun submitted for proof must carry the legally prescribed marks. These consist of:
a. Serial number running consecutively
b. Caliber or gauge designation which must be comprehensive and complete, leaving no areas of question or doubt.
c. Name of dealer or maker. If gun is imported the name or known trademark, including that of the importer in Germany.

'c' is the section I am refering to.

The '68 law is much more involved of course with min & max dimensions for calibers, bbl wall thicknesses, proof pressures, ect.

 

[model3sw]

I thank you all for your input. I'm secure now that these are German proofs from Albrecht Kind house / armorer.

How would these, most logically, make their way back to the U.S.A. ? With U.S. Servicemen stationed in Germany ?

I do not see any allure or benefit of having one of these German proofed U.S.A. manufactured revolvers, however, are the proof marks ... in any way ... a detraction from the normal value you think ?

I just think it makes it a little more intriguing (e.g. "the story of the gun") but also feel it makes no matter, one way or the other, on a like exemplar ... of like condition ... that never left the USA as pertains to the real world USA value.

Do you agree or can you add your thoughts pertaining to value ?

 

[Absalom]

....
My source was the Standard Directory of Proof Marks (Gerhard Wernsberger)

West Germany Proof Law 1968 changes:
Markings-Each gun submitted for proof must carry the legally prescribed marks. These consist of:
a. Serial number running consecutively
b. Caliber or gauge designation which must be comprehensive and complete, leaving no areas of question or doubt.
c. Name of dealer or maker. If gun is imported the name or known trademark, including that of the importer in Germany.

'c' is the section I am refering to.
....

I've seen too many creative translations to trust anything but the German original. On the quick, I could only find the 1976 version; it lists the same three criteria your source does, but states quite clearly that it requires the name, company, OR trademark of a manufacturer OR dealer etc. nothing about importers. So if it says Smith & Wesson with the caliber and a serial on the gun, that should do.

I and my family also owned a variety of American firearms in Germany during those decades, Winchester, Savage, a few S&W's, plus assorted other foreign guns like a rifle from Yugoslavia and shotguns from Spain and Japan. All Germany-bought, properly German-proofed, none with any importer stamps I recall.

 

[Skeetr57]

I was stationed iin Germany from 1978-1980, and while there bought 5 S&W revolvers and 2 Remington long guns through either the Pirmasens or Kaiserslautern Rod and gun clubs. The R&G clubs got them through German importers, and none had any German proof marks, although the chamber length marking on a 3200 shotgun had to be modified by striking out the "or shorter" after the 2 3/4" shell stamp. I do know that guns imported for sale to German citizens had to go through the proof house because a Remington 40 series target rifle imported by a German friend almost had it's minimum chamber reamed because it didn't meet the proof house specs.

 

[Daimler1989]

just to clarify: No gun must be sold in Germany that has no proof marks. No matter if private sale or dealer. Only exceptions: guns that have been manufactured before 1871 or if you have a collectors license and don't shoot the gun. Probably US R&G clubs might not be considered as clients under German gun laws. So any gun imported by a German importer for sale in Germany has to be proof fired and respectively marked.
Is suspect the gun of model3sw has been imported to Germany by AKAH, proof fired and sold to a german customer who then sold it to a US citizen in Germany, who brought it back home.

regards from Germany
Ulrich