What some clueful instructors carry as their defensive firearm

[Ziggy2525]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You're implying that the current master is going to be better. What if he doesn't know anything about teaching? How will he impart his talent to you?

So what's your opinion of the skilled trade apprenticeship programs in the US and Europe? In those programs a skilled teacher teaches theory during evening classes. During working hours, the apprentice is paired with a non-teaching journeyman to learn the practical application of the trade.

How about physicians training? When in med school, a teacher teaches theory. The med school grad goes to an internship where they are paired with a working physician to learn the practical application of being a physician.

What's your thoughts on Engineering? After graduating, the engineer to be takes a Fundamentals of Engineering exam and then works for four years under the supervision of a non-teaching licensed professional engineer to learn the application of their craft. Then they can take the exam to become registered professional engineer.

In most fields, theory and fundamentals of the discipline are taught be people whose primary skill is teaching. Practical application of the field is taught by people whose first skill is having "been there, done that." Teaching ability is a secondary or tertiary consideration.

 

[Protected One]

During a force on force (simunition) class a couple of years ago, the instructor, a local PD Sargent, used the last scenario to illustrate the importance of having a flashlight available when someone breaks in at night. Afterward, during his critique of my performance he said that I did everything right except one. What's that?, I asked. "You didn't shout your commands to the intruder (I have a gun. The police have been called, etc...) as you went through the house". I was nodding my head in acknowledgment, but in my head I'm thinking - "there is no way I'm telegraphing my location to a threat that is INSIDE my house...and I don't know where!" This experience and those of other training classes taken over the years helped me form my expectation of them: Everything taught in a class may not be appropriate for my purposes. Take what I need and leave the rest.

 

[Wise_A]

And all of those fields differ from lethal self-defense in one crucial detail:

People do them every day.

Somebody claiming they've been in a gunfight doesn't give them any magical perspective. It gives them insight into their particular reaction to their particular situation.

The mistake people make is thinking that concealed carry and self-defense is equivalent to anything else. Instead, they should be trying to pick out the similarities. Maybe go to the IDPA guy--if he's actually any good--for shooting how-to. The cop, if he was an actual cop and not a 2-year suburban part-timer, can tell you about bad guys, what they do, and how they think. Go to the military guy, if he has any practical experience in the matter, for a lesson in what stress does to you.

And then don't discount the guy that, despite being none of those things, carries every day, spends 150 hours a year studying CCW, and does a little competition on the side to stay sharp.

 

[Rastoff]

So what's your opinion of the skilled trade apprenticeship programs in the US and Europe? In those programs a skilled teacher teaches theory during evening classes. During working hours, the apprentice is paired with a non-teaching journeyman to learn the practical application of the trade.

Having worked in a field where I teach new engineers almost every day, I have some experience in this subject. You make a very good point, but I would counter that if the journeyman, during the apprenticeship part, doesn't have some decent teaching skills, the journeyman you're creating will not reach his potential. Any journeyman in that situation better be able to see errors, or room for improvement, and be able to correct it in a way that will help the apprentice. I know this because I've seen both good and bad.

I see this mistake being made regularly. The current supervision thinks that Bob the engineer, is really good at his job so they make him a supervisor because, you know, he's a great engineer. What usually happens is they lose a great engineer and obtain a very mediocre supervisor.

Just because someone is a good shot doesn't mean they can make you one. They might be able to, but their experience in their field doesn't mean they'll be good in the teaching field.

When I look for credentials, I don't just look at the skills portion. He was a Navy SEAL. Great, he should have proficiency with the tools we'll be dealing with. He taught guys how to be Navy SEALS, that's better.


There are good and bad instructors everywhere. While I was in a CATM school, you know, a military school taught by the guys you all are saying are such great instructors because they've been there, one instructor told us we could use HIM as a target for dry practice with our M9 pistols. If an instructor told you that, would your opinion of him go up or down?

 

[ContinentalOp]

There are good and bad instructors everywhere. While I was in a CATM school, you know, a military school taught by the guys you all are saying are such great instructors because they've been there, one instructor told us we could use HIM as a target for dry practice with our M9 pistols. If an instructor told you that, would your opinion of him go up or down?

I was going to take a class with an instructor with good credentials...retired police officer, former SWAT team member and commander, taught at the academy, etc. Then I found out this instructor had students dry fire their guns at him in the classroom so they could "feel what it was like to pull the trigger on a person." I decided to skip that class.

 

[Protected One]

There are good and bad instructors everywhere. While I was in a CATM school, you know, a military school taught by the guys you all are saying are such great instructors because they've been there, one instructor told us we could use HIM as a target for dry practice with our M9 pistols. If an instructor told you that, would your opinion of him go up or down?[/QUOTE]

Depends. In theory it should go "down", because that's a violation of gun safety rules. I would say he is being a bit careless. Curious as to WHY he made such a statement, when I presume there were silhouette targets available to use.

 

[Protected One]

I was going to take a class with an instructor with good credentials...retired police officer, former SWAT team member and commander, taught at the academy, etc. Then I found out this instructor had students dry fire their guns at him in the classroom so they could "feel what it was like to pull the trigger on a person." I decided to skip that class.

I suspect that is the same reason that Rastoffs instructor had in mind. There are documented stories of people who when the moment of truth came, couldn't bring themselves to pull the trigger on another person. Sometimes that hesitation resulted in their death. Viewed from that perspective, it can be a benefit to know that in such an instance THAT won't be your experience.

 

[BAM-BAM]

LOL..... I don't think I could ''dry fire" pointing a real gun at a person not posing a threat...... even after checking the chamber 4,5..... 6 times..... 54 years of engrained safety training........... to do something that stupid.


Shoot a threat to me or my family ...... sure.......... ^^^^^^^^..... that I'm not so sure!!!!

 

[Protected One]

LOL..... I don't think I could ''dry fire" pointing a real gun at a person not posing a threat...... even after checking the chamber 4,5..... 6 times..... 54 years of engrained safety training........... to do something that stupid.


Shoot a threat to me or my family ...... sure.......... ^^^^^^^^..... that I'm not so sure!!!!

I see your point entirely, and perhaps you are one of those people who because of background (LEO or military or other) has had the experience of pointing and shooting at another person and thus, knows you could do it if needed. Yet there are many more who think they could, that if ever put to the test...could not.

 

[Rastoff]

Curious as to WHY he made such a statement, when I presume there were silhouette targets available to use.

I cannot comment on his reasoning. Based on how he taught the rest of the class, and what I saw during live fire, I can only surmise that he, and other instructors there, are just not good instructors.

So, my experience in the actual world of military training is not that positive. This is why I resist the blanket statement, "A firearms self-defense instructor with military background is superior." It's simply not true.

Then again, most blanket statements are marginal at best. (Wait, what? )

 

[MAZ711]

I read every post before my comments.

Thank you post #94..111...& 165.

Finally my thoughts on the mental aspects were addressed. Great shooter..great gun...but if isn't mentally prepared or focused, and a REAL defense situation arises....problems will occur.

Who cares about the gun YOU are comfortable with. Of course it should be reliable....you're at risk if not.

I'm not a LEO...though have known many.

How about...keep one in the chamber...safety off...only put finger on trigger when ready to shoot.

Love, know, and keep weapon cleaned.

Carrying isn't for show...be ready and know how to use it.

I worked at S&W in the late 70's and took their shooting program.
It was a " 6 month " training and was lucky to be instructed by Don Vivenzio and John Contreau (the armorer school teachers that did the education for officers from all over world for police departments so they could maintain the guns for their dept...they all built six (6) .357 SS mags from scratch).

Have had my LTC for 40+ years.

I feel very privileged to have a concealed permit.

My irritation...at least in MA....is...anyone can get an LTC now with what I call a "tupperware permit". You can have a get together at your house...an instructor will come by for a few hours....speak to you....you never handle a gun or live fire...pay your $40... then you get a piece a paper that will allow you get a LTC !! Thankfully my gun club doesn't anyone to join unless a live fire course was taken.

YES there are a lot of gun options out there....but in the hands of people that know very little about guns...Glocks or any other...idiots can now wander the streets armed.

Have you ever been to range where someone next to you will turn their gun sideways an shoot like a gangsta' ?? I have...very disturbing.

It's nice to see competent input on this forum and no real trolls out there.

Being safe and knowledgeable is the minimum criteria....gun choice is personal and secondary.

Wanted to add my pennies.

My carry is a S&W model 99/.40. Walther frame...no safety...and will fire the one in the chamber without a clip. The bonus is shooting tight groups at 50 ft.

The old adage...." I'd rather have it and not need it........."

Peace

 

[rwsmith]

Their toque blanche...

Don’t think I ever saw a cook carry a weapon. Hadn’t heard of cooks referred to as a SMU. I’ll take your word for it.

...is shaped like a white beret. Just a kind of droopy one.

 

[Ziggy2525]

While I was in a CATM school, you know, a military school taught by the guys you all are saying are such great instructors because they've been there

I don't believe I said they were great instructors. What I've said is they have the ability to convey critical nuances that made the difference between success and failure from having lived the experience. Someone without that experience can only parrot back what they've heard from others without knowing if that nuance actually applies to a specific circumstance.

one instructor told us we could use HIM as a target for dry practice with our M9 pistols. If an instructor told you that, would your opinion of him go up or down?

You're conflating unsafe behavior with practical, hands-on experience. The two are independent of each other. In the courses I've taken where we used real weapons with the possibility of sweeping someone, taught by BTDT sort of guys, we've always used a BarrelBlock.
BarrelBlok™ | BarrelBlok

Being unsafe and being experienced are two separate attributes.

 

[crazyphil]

Thank you Protected One for bringing the video. It is interesting.
After all is said and done I like the advice of Elmer Keith:
"Use the biggest damned gun you feel comfortable with, even if it's
a Single Action."

 

[Rastoff]

I don't believe I said they were great instructors.

Agreed. My comments were not directed at you, but rather the several who have said that. It's a common thing.

You're conflating unsafe behavior with practical, hands-on experience. The two are independent of each other.
-----
Being unsafe and being experienced are two separate attributes.

I think I understand your point, but I don't necessarily agree. An experienced person should be safe. Sure, we all make mistakes. I'm not saying they need to be mistake free. Anyone who can say what my CATM instructor said, is blatantly unsafe. His whole attitude about gun handling was cavalier and that's bad in my book.

Maybe we're beating around the same bush. I don't know any specific nuance an experienced operator could impart that a well trained trainer can't. I'm not saying all military are bad instructors. Nor am I saying they are good just because they are experienced. I'm just saying that that experience isn't the absolute necessity that some think it is.

 

[petepeterson]

So to me after 40 years of Concealed Carry it's still an open question ........Who can train me to best survive on the mean streets of my "Burb of the Burgh"?

That would be me, sir. For just a one time fee of $250, I'll teach you how to stay north of Perrysville. No reason to leave that little cream puff township of yours.
You're welcome.

 

[Ziggy2525]

...

Maybe we're beating around the same bush. I don't know any specific nuance an experienced operator could impart that a well trained trainer can't. I'm not saying all military are bad instructors. Nor am I saying they are good just because they are experienced. I'm just saying that that experience isn't the absolute necessity that some think it is.

The experience area is where we differ. If the nuances learned through experience don't matter, then we should be able to turn out a "day 1" teacher that's just as skilled as a "10 year" teacher. A "day 1" LEO that's just as skilled as a "10 year" LEO.

I haven't seen it work that way in any field.

 

[BAM-BAM]

That would be me, sir. For just a one time fee of $250, I'll teach you how to stay north of Perrysville. No reason to leave that little cream puff township of yours.
You're welcome.

LOL..... now that's just mean!

Specially from a guy who IIRC.......... lives at least 3 "cream puff Burbs" south of the first Burb of the Burgh..................

 

[gm272gs]

People ask me all the time what gun would be the best for defensive carry and what caliber is the best. It's easy

What gun should you use to defend yourself?
The one you're carrying!

What caliber is best?
Whatever caliber that gun you're carrying shoots!

 

[Protected One]

That would be me, sir. For just a one time fee of $250, I'll teach you how to stay north of Perrysville. No reason to leave that little cream puff township of yours.
You're welcome.

Now that right there is funny!!!! LOL