Targeting on the body question

[SA1911]

Got a question that some of you, due to previous training and education might know, in regards to shot placement on the human body.

Now up front, I realize that bullets can do weird things when entering an object but generally speaking, how effective are shots placed at the lower abdomen height, think belly button center with two inches down or up? I realize that conventional thought is center mass more in the chest area, but how well does the lower trunk compare?

Here's reality: qualifying and the real thing are as different as Rosie O'Donnell is from Kate Upton (now Verlander). Law enforcement agencies have to have a measure of ability that has predictive value, which is determined via tactical qualification. However, in the real thing, there are no bad hits. Any hit on any part of a threat's body is a good hit. Keep in mind that a cop ain't gonna make himself a good target for a threat. He's gonna get the heck outta a bad guy's sight picture.

The ONLY metric that matters in a gunfight is good guy survival. Only armchair commandos count rounds fired.

 

[SA1911]

Hdtwice:




If you are in a situation where you have to shoot someone to save or defend a human life, I think that putting your sights on the biggest part of them that is available and pulling the trigger is a good idea.

Good luck,

Dave

Hi Dave,

The US Military and civilian law enforcement have different objectives. The US Military is willing to accept casualties and fatalities and business costs. Civilian law enforcement's objective is no casualties or fatalities. Bad guys go to jail and good guys go home.

For those not in law enforcement, avoidance is the only way to survive. If you can't avoid, you can't get shot. Remember, in a gunfight bullets will he heading your way. You cannot take a round. Hence, you cannot make yourself a good target.

Here's a basic rule of thumb: if you take time to align your sights, you're probably going to take a round or more. Hence, running for a barrier is probably a better idea than sight alignment.

 

[rwsmith]

Nowadays people are very likely......

But does everyone react the same way to pain?

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

....to be drugged up. Completely unpredictable.

 

[rwsmith]

To the guy who penetrates bad guys and walls......

Choice of BULLET that is on your AMMO is as important as caliber or any other SD considerations. A well designed bullet will penetrate the target to the desired depth, then stop due to expansion.

 

[TomkinsSP]

While BerkshireHathaway, the USMC, NYPD and a LTC civilian have different objectives, they all operate in a rational universe where all the players try to maximise their outcomes and minimise costs. Injuries and deaths can occur in any endeavor and are "a cost of doing buisness". The BN brakeman knows, like the USMC amtrac driver and the NYPD patrolman, that their lives could end if they do not perform their duties correctly. They know of others who have been injured or died when the injured or deceased did their jobs correctly, but fate or the errors of others intervened.

Police and Marines often place themselves in positions where they can get themselves injured or killed in order to protect others. Hopefully their training will allow them to do their job and return home uninjured later.

LTC civilians are not (generally) the Marines or Police. They should not go looking for trouble. But trouble has a way of finding innocent people. An LTC civilian may also have to risk injury or death to protect his child, wife, mother, etc.. (Of course there are also plenty of cases where unarmed civilians died or were injured protecting their loved ones.) Hopefully the training (and it can be self taught) the LTC civilian receives will allow him to do his "job" properly and return home uninjured later.

 

[TomkinsSP]

Hi Dave,

The US Military and civilian law enforcement have different objectives. The US Military is willing to accept casualties and fatalities and business costs. Civilian law enforcement's objective is no casualties or fatalities. Bad guys go to jail and good guys go home.

For those not in law enforcement, avoidance is the only way to survive. If you can't avoid, you can't get shot. Remember, in a gunfight bullets will he heading your way. You cannot take a round. Hence, you cannot make yourself a good target.

Here's a basic rule of thumb: if you take time to align your sights, you're probably going to take a round or more. Hence, running for a barrier is probably a better idea than sight alignment.

If you CAN avoid a fight, you probably should, but you could be in a place where flight or cover is not an option, or you could be with children, infirm or elderly people you have to defend.

 

[TomkinsSP]

Here's reality: qualifying and the real thing are as different as Rosie O'Donnell is from Kate Upton (now Verlander). Law enforcement agencies have to have a measure of ability that has predictive value, which is determined via tactical qualification. However, in the real thing, there are no bad hits. Any hit on any part of a threat's body is a good hit. Keep in mind that a cop ain't gonna make himself a good target for a threat. He's gonna get the heck outta a bad guy's sight picture.

The ONLY metric that matters in a gunfight is good guy survival. Only armchair commandos count rounds fired.

The cop might not have a choice. He might be helping Sister Mary Margaret's 17 kindergarteners across 5th Avenue when all heck breaks loose.

JMO, Rounds fired only count in the sense that if your first or second rounds put down the threat, you are less likely to be injured or killed by that treat. (If you miss 15 times a second magazine is of limited value.)

 

[Muss Muggins]

. . . (If you miss 15 times a second magazine is of limited value.)

It would seem to me that if I missed 15 times, having a second magazine would be pretty valuable. If I stop the threat with one or two rounds, that second magazine is just extra weight . . .

 

[Protected One]

It would seem to me that if I missed 15 times, having a second magazine would be pretty valuable. If I stop the threat with one or two rounds, that second magazine is just extra weight . . .

I remember a self-defense story told by a guy who was approached by two thugs while in his garage. Seeing them coming and their obvious intent, he drew his glock 19, ducked beside his car, and fired off 16 rounds (wildly) so quick that it surprised even him. After reloading and firing 6 more he heard the guys say, 'lets get the h*** out of here before he gets lucky and hits us.'
The sheer VOLUME of fire drove the threat off! So yes, having that SECOND magazine CAN be pretty valuable.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

I have been a student of gun fighting for a very long time. This brought back an old memory:

Gun Site by Jeff Cooper and his crew

I believe Colonel Cooper's mantra was "two to the body and one to the head" and it was called the "Mozambique drill".

I never forgot that mantra.

 

[TomkinsSP]

It would seem to me that if I missed 15 times, having a second magazine would be pretty valuable. If I stop the threat with one or two rounds, that second magazine is just extra weight . . .

I can see how a second magazine could be useful if you are laying down suppressive fire so innocents can escape from a barricaded psychopath.

If on the other hand, Mr. Sociopath is relatively near, and 15 rounds are fired without any resulting hits, I figure he is going to run away, or kill you, but I don't think that second mag is going to help, JMO.

(Edit: Maybe a better way of expressing my idea.
If somebody fired off 15 rounds without a hit, they are a bad shot, or stressed, or the threat is receeding, or it's a very difficult shot because the threat is behind something. Dropping the last case, more rounds won't help the first two situations, and in the third case the situation is resolving itself.

There is a very real possibility, however, that if you take the time to fire 15 shots, the threat has an equal amount of time to hurt or kill you. So early hits count more than later ones.)

 

[TomkinsSP]

I remember a self-defense story told by a guy who was approached by two thugs while in his garage. Seeing them coming and their obvious intent, he drew his glock 19, ducked beside his car, and fired off 16 rounds (wildly) so quick that it surprised even him. After reloading and firing 6 more he heard the guys say, 'lets get the h*** out of here before he gets lucky and hits us.'
The sheer VOLUME of fire drove the threat off! So yes, having that SECOND magazine CAN be pretty valuable.

I worry about where those 22 projectiles went. Since most of our family members, they live in houses situated very near or attached to our garages, I would worry that one of those stray rounds could find one of them, or a neighbor (or much less significantly something of mine in my house or garage).

 

[AJ]

I have been a student of gun fighting for a very long time. This brought back an old memory:



I believe Colonel Cooper's mantra was "two to the body and one to the head" and it was called the "Mozambique drill".

I never forgot that mantra.

We called it the "Failure To Stop Drill". Same Mantra. Also learned head shots with a shotgun during hostage drills.

 

[Protected One]

I worry about where those 22 projectiles went. Since most of our family members, they live in houses situated very near or attached to our garages, I would worry that one of those stray rounds could find one of them, or a neighbor (or much less significantly something of mine in my house or garage).

I hear what you're saying and I would like to think that I would be more judicious in my firing, given that situation. At the end of the day, he survived, and I don't believe anyone way injured by errant rounds.

 

[bigggbbruce]

I practice point and shoot. My shots are within' 6" high or low of the spot I'm looking at and usually closer, so I'd choose center mass heart shot.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

We called it the "Failure To Stop Drill". Same Mantra. Also learned head shots with a shotgun during hostage drills.

Perfect. Semper Fi!!!

But Colonel Cooper was a Marine, too, as I recall. I like his drill name better.

 

[WR Moore]

When questioned about higher than usual standard capacity magaines (12-15 vs 7) Jeff Coopers famous quote was: "Why, are you planning on missing a lot?"

It's a great quip and helped sell his theory on caliber. That said, both as an historian and a military officer, Cooper was well aware of the dictum of Field Marshall von Moltke the elder: Planning does not survive contact with the enemy.

I'll point out the Sgt Gramins incident in Indiana. Sgt Gramins burned through his first two mags and was down to 3-4 shots before he got his stop. FWIW, he was using a .45 with quality ammo and made 17 hits out of ~33 rounds (pretty darn good). These included hits in the lungs, kidney, heart and multiple (3) head shots before he neutralized the threat. The fight ain't over until the other person quits.

Having seen a couple of head shots that stopped by concussion after inflicting minor wounds, I'm a lot less enthusiastic about the concept than a lot of others. Sgt Gramins didn't even get concussion with 2 of his 3.

 

[AJ]

Perfect. Semper Fi!!!

But Colonel Cooper was a Marine, too, as I recall. I like his drill name better.

Check you PM's.

 

[BE Mike]

Seems like a lot to process when you're getting shot at . . .

Under stress, we resort to training.

 

[AJ]

Under stress, we resort to training.

We were taught and I have found that under stress we do fall back on our training. A lot of the training that I did and taught was rote training, rep after rep after rep until it was ingrained into you. The handgun course I taught used 1000 rounds over a five day period and sometimes more when students were having trouble with a section of the training.