Leaving a shooting scene under LEO guard!!
- Thread starter NYlakesider
- Start date
So true......
If something happens, even by accident, there's no going back to argue about it. These times are dangerous. When did we start to worry about getting shot by a policeman during a crime just because we are there?
If something happens, even by accident, there's no going back to argue about it. These times are dangerous. When did we start to worry about getting shot by a policeman during a crime just because we are there?
I guess if they insist on BOTH HANDS in the air, I'll just stand there with my cane held high over my head (with both hands) and tell them if they want me to move, they can come pick up my happy um... self and carry me. 
Great Thread.
Thanks
Joe
Thanks
Joe
nachogrande
Member
JUST A WILD GUESS.
That's one kid that WILL NOT be getting the Presidential medal of freedom.
That's one kid that WILL NOT be getting the Presidential medal of freedom.
TripLeader
Member
There's a lot of concerns of being shot by the police...
What about being shot by another concealed weapon holder if you both end up in an active shooter event in a place like a shopping mall? Chances are that person could have no training at all and no experience in high stress situations.
What about being shot by another concealed weapon holder if you both end up in an active shooter event in a place like a shopping mall? Chances are that person could have no training at all and no experience in high stress situations.
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There's a lot of "what ifs" to ponder. So many that you probably can't cover all of them, especially with the unknowns that will pop up.
I hope to not overthink it to the point of immobility, but instead, try to use extreme common sense and deliberation in everything I would do.
When LEO arrives, I'm going to try and see things through their eyes from that point on.
Or, I may just run out with everybody else and scream like a frightened baby!
I hope to not overthink it to the point of immobility, but instead, try to use extreme common sense and deliberation in everything I would do.
When LEO arrives, I'm going to try and see things through their eyes from that point on.
Or, I may just run out with everybody else and scream like a frightened baby!
While there "may' be an other(s) "concealed weapon holder" present..... there "will" be police at some point. I think the OP was asking about that interaction and how to handle it........ without getting shot.
amazingflapjack
US Veteran
me too...
I have the same situation with my left shoulder, and-I am a disabled veteran that has injuries that could cause my death if I were hand cuffed behind my back, or forced to the ground. I am also a big person who, evidently, has an intimidating affect on others that I cannot leave home. What is my best course of action? What is the first thing I should say to the first LEO I encounter? Thanks.
I have the same situation with my left shoulder, and-I am a disabled veteran that has injuries that could cause my death if I were hand cuffed behind my back, or forced to the ground. I am also a big person who, evidently, has an intimidating affect on others that I cannot leave home. What is my best course of action? What is the first thing I should say to the first LEO I encounter? Thanks.
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gwpercle
Member
Just keep your hands up and follow orders ....don't worry about "printing". If you are bothered about this this type scenario happening to you ....you might want to rethink your decision to carry a gun.
okiegtrider
Member
I won't post it here, but comedian Chris Rock gave us all some great tips a few years ago about interacting with the police. Seems applicable to this situation too.
OP
As the OP just let me say, I have carried a legal weapon since the early 1970s and years back a NRA instructor for the course my county makes all applicants take before they will issue a permit.
Best bet I have more carry time than most of the people on this forum and I live in the extremely anti gun peoples republic of NY. I understand about printing and my carry piece and where its carried is pretty well thought out. Many people in the city area see a gun/think they saw a gun they will call it in and many city type police are not what you can call gun friendly.
I'm not bothered by possible problems but I'm curious and rest assured things like that could catch any of us when where out and about. I threw this out for discussion and possibly a heads up as I never saw anything like this mention before.
Consider it a public service announcement!Ozark Marine
US Veteran
Your right, at SOME POINT cops will show up.
And when they do great.
That's what we pay them to do.
It's a job they can quit if it's too stressful.
Not like enlisting for 4 or more years in the military.
I had HS friends who joined the police force to avoid the draft.
What I disagree with is the if you don't immediately respond to Leo commands after they get in you can expect to be taken to the ground.
Not everyone's hearing is perfect before guns fire, and afterwards I doubt it improves.
So don't use the "high state of alert" as a excuse for abusing citizens defending themselves, family and strangers.
Oh, please.
Promptly obey any lawful/necessary command(s) and you won't have to be put to the ground.
You are correct, LEO's are civilians...no better than any other civilians...BUT they have a job to do. And that is a job many do not want or have the ability to perform.
Be safe.
Promptly obey any lawful/necessary command(s) and you won't have to be put to the ground.
You are correct, LEO's are civilians...no better than any other civilians...BUT they have a job to do. And that is a job many do not want or have the ability to perform.
Be safe.
I'm with NYLakesider...this is a great topic that I don't remember being discussed before.........................most threads involve "shoot it out or run" or " can you do 20 yds head shots"
I've noticed that none of the LEOs have responded to my questions in Post 11.... about their procedures for dealing with civilians w/ Concealed Carry weapons.
Like NYLakesider I've had a cc permit since the mid-70s and was an NRA instructor in my 20s. My Dad was a Cop (and I grew up within a bunch of cops) and I'm a Lawyer; For about 10 years I was responsible for a 30 person armed Hospital/Health System Security Dept. with whom I trained and qualified.
If we all knew the other's expectations.... which in this case is " what would the police like us to do about letting them know we are armed with a concealed weapon"...things would be less confusing..... it's why they involve students, teachers and Administrators in "Active Shooter and ALICE Drills"..... so they know what to do and not do.
My best guess is ...... it's something like ... " treat anyone with a weapon like a potential shooter/accessory; disarm them, cuff them, put them in the back of a car .............. we will sort it out later!!".................. which more likely than not will be hours not minutes. I can understand an live with that.......just don't want there to be any misunderstandings that get someone shot.
I remember the Sheriff in Fla.'s comment ; he stated his Deputy should have gone in and "killed the shooter".... not "engage"; "kill"..... I don't think any of us want to get caught in the middle of those rules of engagement.
I've noticed that none of the LEOs have responded to my questions in Post 11.... about their procedures for dealing with civilians w/ Concealed Carry weapons.
Like NYLakesider I've had a cc permit since the mid-70s and was an NRA instructor in my 20s. My Dad was a Cop (and I grew up within a bunch of cops) and I'm a Lawyer; For about 10 years I was responsible for a 30 person armed Hospital/Health System Security Dept. with whom I trained and qualified.
If we all knew the other's expectations.... which in this case is " what would the police like us to do about letting them know we are armed with a concealed weapon"...things would be less confusing..... it's why they involve students, teachers and Administrators in "Active Shooter and ALICE Drills"..... so they know what to do and not do.
My best guess is ...... it's something like ... " treat anyone with a weapon like a potential shooter/accessory; disarm them, cuff them, put them in the back of a car .............. we will sort it out later!!".................. which more likely than not will be hours not minutes. I can understand an live with that.......just don't want there to be any misunderstandings that get someone shot.
I remember the Sheriff in Fla.'s comment ; he stated his Deputy should have gone in and "killed the shooter".... not "engage"; "kill"..... I don't think any of us want to get caught in the middle of those rules of engagement.
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Doug M.
Member
One need not reconsider the fact that they carry a gun unless it is a function of not being serious about it, but the way you carry it might need to be reconsidered.
"Slammed to the ground": one needs to understand that barring some really odd circumstance, the overwhelming majority of people taken to the ground with vigor are there because they did not comply with prior direction. BT, DT. Compliance is not discretionary under the Constitutional case law or the statutes of most if not all states. Delay is not acceptable under any police training - because anything other than immediate compliance is a very big danger signal. If the delay is perceptible, it is too long. Blank stares, questions, and other stuff are not consistent with the safety of the officers or the uninvolved folks present, and ARE consistent with violent assaultive behavior. For those of us with crummy joints, it will mean moving as fast as possible in a manner consistent with the direction - I have bad knees and I'm still going to what I can to comply with all the speed I can muster.
Cops cannot take chances, legally or ethically; safety violations by cops should result in pretty serious discipline. Military ROE do not translate to the Constitutional standard, and overcoming that training is one of the hardest things most cops I know who come from the military have had to do. A friend of mine is a retired JAG with an LE legal background, and his commentary on the ignorance of most military trainers and command officers is scathing. I helped with a brief for an infantry officer wrong fully convicted in part due to that kind of silliness (the only defense type stuff I have done in years) - many officers from O-3 to at least O-6 in both JAG and the combat arms should have been court-martialed and given BCDs/DDs after release from confinement, and hopefully will be when the matter is over.
Can't raise one hand all the way? At least keep it as far from your body as possible, with the hand OPEN and the palm toward the cops. Crutch/case? Same - remember that the cops will hopefully (not always) have a decent description of the offender; most will not be 75 YOs with a cane.
If there is conversation with an officer (which will vary by the level of chaos, number of cops, and lots of other things) regarding the circumstances, comply with the directions FIRST, and then explain after you are controlled as the officer wants that you are lawfully armed. Describe the location of the firearm and any features of the holster WITHOUT MOVING, especially not toward it, and likewise, the location of your ID.
Understand this: offenders come in all sizes, ages, shapes, pigments, etc. As I say to recruits in our local reserve academies - you should generally disregard pigment, plumbing, and preference other than as needed as descriptors on a report, because (socially undesirable people) come in all varieties. I have met and dealt with violent and dangerous criminals in the street and in court of all ages, body types, sex, etc. I mean from 11 to mid-70s, male and female. Understand this, too: just because YOU know that you are the most wonderful person on the planet does not mean that anyone else knows it, and cops cannot assume it. "Nice" cops are the ones most likely to be assaulted and killed, a fact shown by research 25+ years ago and never contradicted (and I had a supervisor at the time who matched that, and was in fact nearly killed as a result).
Force is ugly; effective force is really ugly; that does not make it wrong - just ugly. American LE uses force very rarely, and lethal force even more rarely, and not nearly enough - the current fabricated discourse is completely unrealistic. As I said in another string, there is a really good book on Terry you can find by googling "Terry stop" with "Doug Mitchell". As for use of force generally by LE, the leading text is clearly Urey W. Patrick and John C. Hall, "In Defense of Self and Others -- issues, facts & fallacies: The realities of law enforcement's use of deadly force" (3rd edition, 2017) anyone interested needs to buy and read it.
"Slammed to the ground": one needs to understand that barring some really odd circumstance, the overwhelming majority of people taken to the ground with vigor are there because they did not comply with prior direction. BT, DT. Compliance is not discretionary under the Constitutional case law or the statutes of most if not all states. Delay is not acceptable under any police training - because anything other than immediate compliance is a very big danger signal. If the delay is perceptible, it is too long. Blank stares, questions, and other stuff are not consistent with the safety of the officers or the uninvolved folks present, and ARE consistent with violent assaultive behavior. For those of us with crummy joints, it will mean moving as fast as possible in a manner consistent with the direction - I have bad knees and I'm still going to what I can to comply with all the speed I can muster.
Cops cannot take chances, legally or ethically; safety violations by cops should result in pretty serious discipline. Military ROE do not translate to the Constitutional standard, and overcoming that training is one of the hardest things most cops I know who come from the military have had to do. A friend of mine is a retired JAG with an LE legal background, and his commentary on the ignorance of most military trainers and command officers is scathing. I helped with a brief for an infantry officer wrong fully convicted in part due to that kind of silliness (the only defense type stuff I have done in years) - many officers from O-3 to at least O-6 in both JAG and the combat arms should have been court-martialed and given BCDs/DDs after release from confinement, and hopefully will be when the matter is over.
Can't raise one hand all the way? At least keep it as far from your body as possible, with the hand OPEN and the palm toward the cops. Crutch/case? Same - remember that the cops will hopefully (not always) have a decent description of the offender; most will not be 75 YOs with a cane.
If there is conversation with an officer (which will vary by the level of chaos, number of cops, and lots of other things) regarding the circumstances, comply with the directions FIRST, and then explain after you are controlled as the officer wants that you are lawfully armed. Describe the location of the firearm and any features of the holster WITHOUT MOVING, especially not toward it, and likewise, the location of your ID.
Understand this: offenders come in all sizes, ages, shapes, pigments, etc. As I say to recruits in our local reserve academies - you should generally disregard pigment, plumbing, and preference other than as needed as descriptors on a report, because (socially undesirable people) come in all varieties. I have met and dealt with violent and dangerous criminals in the street and in court of all ages, body types, sex, etc. I mean from 11 to mid-70s, male and female. Understand this, too: just because YOU know that you are the most wonderful person on the planet does not mean that anyone else knows it, and cops cannot assume it. "Nice" cops are the ones most likely to be assaulted and killed, a fact shown by research 25+ years ago and never contradicted (and I had a supervisor at the time who matched that, and was in fact nearly killed as a result).
Force is ugly; effective force is really ugly; that does not make it wrong - just ugly. American LE uses force very rarely, and lethal force even more rarely, and not nearly enough - the current fabricated discourse is completely unrealistic. As I said in another string, there is a really good book on Terry you can find by googling "Terry stop" with "Doug Mitchell". As for use of force generally by LE, the leading text is clearly Urey W. Patrick and John C. Hall, "In Defense of Self and Others -- issues, facts & fallacies: The realities of law enforcement's use of deadly force" (3rd edition, 2017) anyone interested needs to buy and read it.
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nachogrande
Member
BACK AT MY OLD ALMA MATER.
We had a K9 trooper that loved to hassle college boys. He'd make us get out of the vehicle & lay face down in the slush/ice of sometimes sub zero NH winters with his dog growling inches from your face. NOT the time/place for "I know my rights" and am not gonna do it.
We had a K9 trooper that loved to hassle college boys. He'd make us get out of the vehicle & lay face down in the slush/ice of sometimes sub zero NH winters with his dog growling inches from your face. NOT the time/place for "I know my rights" and am not gonna do it.
You mentioned that no one had responded to this question. It made no difference if I responded, but since you asked ...
I am long since retired, and live in a different state, so have no sworn obligations or current department training rules.
In the day, you were put face down spread eagle on the ground until things were sorted out. You did not dare move, argue, or protest, lest you be arrested out of general principle.
There was also no CC unless you were LE or Judicial.
Things have changed, and the LEO's ability to respond is under much more scrutiny. I am happy to not be in service today.
spad124
Member
Maybe police training has changed, but the officers I know who were trained in the 90s were trained to escalate to control a situation. In the situation we're discussing I would assume they would escalate and disarm me forcefully because they don't know if I'm the bad guy -C.C. license or not.
wittmeba
US Veteran
Why not just tell one of the LE officers you are a LAC with a permit to CC. I doubt they are going to shoot you for that.
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