Inane moronic question from a newby doing research

[Mig]

Does anyone have the time and patience to answer what must seem like a laughably moronic question? I'm writing a novel that features gunplay and I've never actually fired a gun. (I live in Britain and I assume I'd have to fill in 1000 forms and get written permission from the Queen.) Several times in my book I have characters pull the trigger (of automatic pistols and the occasional revolver) and click on an empty chamber – a staple of thriller fiction, not to mention a cliché, but I mostly use it as a running gag.

However I just stumbled on a book review which sneered at another book which used this trope, saying 'a single action semi-auto will not cycle the trigger on an empty chamber'.

So my question is: if I pull the trigger of an automatic which is out of bullets, what happens? Would the trigger or hammer actually move? Would I hear/feel anything at all that could be described with the time-honoured 'clicking empty'? (Perhaps I should say my book is set in the 1920s and, although I don't actually specify as the characters are as inexpert as me, I'm assuming most of the guns are Browning 1911s.)

Obviously I've watched footage on youtube but it's been no help so far, because in real life, unlike books, people are able to count the bullets they've fired and don't bother to pull the trigger of an empty gun.

While I'm here, is there anything else you've noticed writers get wrong about guns that gives away that they've never fired one in their lives? (I already know silencers don't silence enough that the gun goes Pfft.)

Thanks if anyone is disposed to help. To suck up in advance, I'm posting the question here because this is the best gun site I've found.

 

[Papa32129]

Quick answer
Watch hickok45 on utube. he pulls the trigger on every gun he demonstrates. He checks the action or to test the trigger.
Dry Fire is common practice for him.
Papa



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ParadiseRoad]

...if I rack the slide on my empty 1911...the hammer drops when I pull the trigger...

...when firing...the slide locks back on the last shot...if I then release the slide...the hammer will drop when I pull the trigger...

...other semi autos may be and probably are different...

 

[kobsw]

Cheers,
Most if not all "Automatic", which are really semi-automatic magazine fed pistols, are designed in a way that their slides will lock back after the last round is fired. This design will prevent you from pulling the trigger on an empty chamber since the slide is not in its home position.

If the slide is then sent home most if not all semi-automatic pistols will fire on an empty chamber if the trigger is pulled.

If you have a specific gun you need info for we'd be glad to help to provide a more specific and detailed response.

I hope this helps and good luck with the book.

Best Regards,

Kobsw

 

[rwsmith]

Wow..different actiions.....

First, No semi auto gun will fire unless you pull back the bolt or slide and let it go. A DA gun will operate the firing mechanism but with no round in the chamber you get a 'click'.

When you 'rack' the slide, a bullet goes from the magazine into the chamber in a position to fire.

Taking out the magazine on a semi gun does NOT unload it. Only if you remove the mage and rack the slide/bolt to eject the live round from the chamber

Now it gets harder. There are a lot of types of actions and combinations of actions in semis that function differently. If you know how to handle one gun, that doesn't qualify you for the others w/o familiarity section. I'll try to keep it simple and somebody correct me if I slip up here.

A SA (single action) will not fire when you pull the trigger unless a round is racked from the mag to the chamber and is left in firing position. If you 'decock' the gun, it won't fire. If you 'recock' the gun with the hammer, it will then fire. The only function of the trigger in an SA gun is to drop the hammer either to decock or fire the round.

A DA gun will not fire w/o a round in the chamber. When the gun is racked with a round from the mag in the chamber and the trigger is pulled it will fire. In a DA gun the trigger does double duty by cocking the hammer/firing pin. So when you pull the trigger it is harder to pull back and has longer travel because it has to cock the firing mechanism and then release the trigger.

The problem is that is variations and combinations of thse actions. One DA semi can have a round in the chamber but if the magazine is removed the trigger disconnect makes the trigger useless. It won't even click when you pull Others, if you drop the mag, pull the trigger and the safety isn't on, it will fire.

SA/DA guns can operate either way. If the mechanism is not cocked the trigger pull is long and hard. If it IS cocked a light pull on the trigger will fire it.

You might want to run some of your passages over the forum here for people to check and see if what you say is possible or is sneer material.

 

[UncleEd]

Autos with double action capability,
(look up definition, uses) will allow
you to pull the trigger again on either
an empty chamber or if the round was
a dud and needs a double hit of the
firing pin.

Such examples of these kind of guns are
Beretta 92s, Sig 226s.

Single action guns such as the Colt's 1911,
Glock, once the trigger has been pulled the
hammer/striker has gone forward and the
gun must again have the slide pulled back.
Add to this short list the Browning Hi Power.
The Glocks and Hi Powers have been used by
British military and police.

If the round was a dud in these type of action,
it will be ejected and a fresh round will feed
into the chamber if the magazine was loaded.
Then the hammer/striker is again cocked and
ready to fire.

With double action revolvers, typical a Smith
Model 10 (used by British police), you can keep
pulling the trigger whether it's loaded or not.

I suggest like another has to watch Hickok45 You
Tubes and also possible Gun Blast. Wouldn't hurt
for you to buy videos by Bill Wilson, Jerry Miculek,
Kent Smith or at least You Tube/Google them.

Alas, most recently in movies when someone is
using a Glock, when it is shot dry, the slide
is not locked back and the sound effect department
adds clicking sounds of the user pulling the trigger.
Ain't gonna happen.

Glock has become a pretty universal firearm in
Britain for authorities.

 

[bk42261]

To the best of my knowledge, Browning never made a "1911" but the Browning Automatic P35 commonly called the Browning High Power chambered mostly in 9m/m

 

[Doug M.]

Take a two week vacation and come to the States. Go to a place that will allow non-citizens to rent and shoot with instruction. IIRC, you can do that in Nevada, and there are places in Vegas that are essentially tourist destinations for that market. I've heard of Japanese folks coming here to do shoot, etc.

Before that, read a lot, such as here, about different types of firearms, so you at least know enough to know what questions you want to ask.

BTW, your question may be inane, but it is not moronic. It is ignorant, as you are informed. Huge difference. I am ignorant about making rocket fuel for NASA, but not moronic enough to claim I know how to make it.

 

[Old cop]

There are no stupid Q here so ask away, we're all here to help and learn.

 

[S42N8]

Not a moronic question at all; just a first step to learning. One (hopefully) useful note: the OP mentioned the book was set in the 1920s, and presumably the U.K. It may be easier to narrow the range of weapons down by era and location, and there's lots o'folks here who can speak with better knowledge than I.

Those who've already posted here have defined double-action / single-action well; I rather doubt Browning Arms Co. made a 1911-pattern until this century. Magazine disconnect, safety vs. decocker, heel magazine release vs. frame mag release, and a bunch of other esoteric terms will trip up authors and others alike. (I would not know the manual of arms for a Webley MkI or MkVI, or an Enfield, but those would certainly show up in the UK during the '20s.). Then there are the handguns of the various European nations, the East, etc...which leads us to research.

Some basic research will help; Ezell's "Handguns of the World" is a excellent starting point.
[ame]https://www.amazon.com/Handguns-World-Military-Revolvers-self-loaders/dp/0880296186[/ame]

Last, Doug M's point on a trip to the U.S. for some familiarization is great! Here in central Florida, we have many ranges where you can get basic weapons training, test fire a variety of weapons, and spend some quality research time. I'd recommend Shooter's World (Firearms Store & Classes | Shooting Range & More at Shooters World) but there are many others. Best of luck with your book!

 

[ParadiseRoad]

...I think the OP is referring to the 1911 being a John Moses Browning design...

 

[Targets Guy]

inane and moronic are where we all start

 

[Onomea]

Tell us about your characters who you have pulling triggers, and let us suggest appropriate handgun models. Nationality, age, occupation, class, etc. Time and place. Then we can suggest appropriate handguns. We can tell you specifically what happens when the trigger is pulled, depending on the condition of the gun model just prior to the pulling.

(Gun guys who read your novel will be impressed by the accuracy of your depictions!)

 

[shouldazagged]

Your description of your lack of knowledge about guns is refreshing but too self-deprecating. You are doing something very intelligent, seeking advice from people who know guns. Not the least bit insane or moronic.

Your book will be better for it. Margaret Truman Daniel, the daughter of President Harry Truman, wrote some spy stories that weren't bad: plotting okay, characters reasonably developed. But the poor woman knew nothing at all about guns. She called automatics "revolvers", and armed one villain with an all-plastic gun--no metal at all--that would defeat metal detectors. I suppose the ammunition was all plastic too...

 

[amazingflapjack]

A specific hand gun would be necessary in order to render an accurate description.

 

[Abbynormal]

Does anyone have the time and patience to answer what must seem like a laughably moronic question? I'm writing a novel that features gunplay and I've never actually fired a gun. (I live in Britain and I assume I'd have to fill in 1000 forms and get written permission from the Queen.) Several times in my book I have characters pull the trigger (of automatic pistols and the occasional revolver) and click on an empty chamber – a staple of thriller fiction, not to mention a cliché, but I mostly use it as a running gag.

However I just stumbled on a book review which sneered at another book which used this trope, saying 'a single action semi-auto will not cycle the trigger on an empty chamber'.




So my question is: if I pull the trigger of an automatic which is out of bullets, what happens? Would the trigger or hammer actually move? Would I hear/feel anything at all that could be described with the time-honoured 'clicking empty'? (Perhaps I should say my book is set in the 1920s and, although I don't actually specify as the characters are as inexpert as me, I'm assuming most of the guns are Browning 1911s.)

Obviously I've watched footage on youtube but it's been no help so far, because in real life, unlike books, people are able to count the bullets they've fired and don't bother to pull the trigger of an empty gun.

While I'm here, is there anything else you've noticed writers get wrong about guns that gives away that they've never fired one in their lives? (I already know silencers don't silence enough that the gun goes Pfft.)

Thanks if anyone is disposed to help. To suck up in advance, I'm posting the question here because this is the best gun site I've found.

You sir are not qualified to write the book you intend to. If you haven't EVER shot a weapon, and try to write about shooting when you have never done it, you will be soon called out as a fake.

Try a different subject or take it upon your self to come to the USA and go to a rental range and try out a real weapon.

A real writer doesn't depend on others descriptions when one has the capability to experience the occurrences first hand.

 

[Onomea]

Just wanna say — and no offense intended, Abby — that I heartily disagree with the post directly above.

I think the genius of writers is often that they write credibly of what they have not experienced, whether out of choice or inability.

Carry on, Mig.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

Mig, you are on the right track by seeking answers to your questions here. S&W Forum members include some of the most knowledgeable and helpful folks you will find, whether the subject be firearms, or any number of other subjects.

I read quite a lot (2 to 4 books per week, and I am nearing 68 years of age, so that adds up to a lot of books). Even some of the best authors routinely make the same mistakes, such as:

1. Referring to a common semi-auto handgun as a revolver
2. Mentioning the use of a manual safety on common revolvers (no such thing exists)
3. Writing that a character has cocked the hammer on his Glock pistol (no external hammer, no manual control over the cocking mechanism)
4. Talking about a manual safety on a Glock pistol (no such thing exists)

Your questions are neither inane nor moronic. You are simply seeking to provide your readers with accurate portrayals of events that are realistic in detail.

There are many here who would be happy to help you with specific information, and have the knowledge and experience to do so. Personally, I am a retired police chief and combat veteran of Vietnam, as well as a collector of 19th and 20th Century firearms, so I have some experience with just about any firearm produced during the past 150 years or so. You may feel free to contact me by the PM function anytime.

In response to your specific question about pulling the trigger of a semi-auto handgun when it has no ammunition remaining, nearly all semi-auto pistols are designed to lock the slide open when the last round is fired. Pulling the trigger will have no effect at all, not even a "click". The user would know immediately that the pistol is unloaded, primarily by the difference in balance and weight distribution in the hand caused by the slide being locked in the fully-rearward position.

Best regards.

 

[WR Moore]

Mig, you deserve props for asking the questions you did. You've been accurately informed that most semi-auto pistols (like the 1911 pattern) do lock their slide back when they've run out of ammunition. In that condition, the hammer & trigger aren't connected. The trigger may move, but there is no noise. There are a couple of odd-ball makes/models that don't. I can't recall any specific ones off the top of my head.

BTW, in the 1920's virtually every semi-auto pistol would be single action.

You mention using the running out of ammunition/cycling the trigger as a running gag. It's likely most folks reading you won't realize that. However, if you want to see a real howler of a gag to those who are paying attention and knowledgeable, watch the first few minutes of (I think) ******* of Solace. Daniel Craig is chasing some individual through an apartment. During the first phase of the search, the slide of his handgun is forward, indicating a loaded pistol ready to fire. Then, magically, the slide is locked back indicating this pistol is out of ammunition. Then in another setting the slide is forward again.

I expect they took a break, the armorer unloaded/cleared the pistol and after shooting resumed (different camera setup) no one bothered to put the pistol back into battery/ready to fire condition.

Just noticed the item about counting rounds in real life. On the range in practice, maybe. In the stress of an actual armed encounter, it rarely happens. Heck, in running people through our qualification course, after I'd TOLD people they were going to run out of ammunition and needed to reload under time, a certain number of people would stare at the locked back slide, attempt to fire it and only then realize they needed to reload. Actually they might attempt to fire, then stare at the locked back slide and then they'd realize they needed to reload. I never asked their thought processes, I was trying to instill reflexive action. An accurate depiction of an inexperienced person would be puzzlement/disbelief that the gun quit working.

 

[rwsmith]

Hey, it would fire.....

Your description of your lack of knowledge about guns is refreshing but too self-deprecating. You are doing something very intelligent, seeking advice from people who know guns. Not the least bit insane or moronic.

Your book will be better for it. Margaret Truman Daniel, the daughter of President Harry Truman, wrote some spy stories that weren't bad: plotting okay, characters reasonably developed. But the poor woman knew nothing at all about guns. She called automatics "revolvers", and armed one villain with an all-plastic gun--no metal at all--that would defeat metal detectors. I suppose the ammunition was all plastic too...

A plastic gun would fire.......ONCE!

That makes me wonder if a gun barrel could be made of ceramic. They are making some awfully tough stuff, but ceramics may not be good under shock or in tension.