Presses -'Short Term Gain. Long Term Pain'

[cds43016]

Choosing a reloading press can be a daunting task. Missteps are easy and expensive. Even with a long history of shooting and reloading, it's still possible to make and even repeat a mistake.

I started loading in the late 60s with a Lee Loader for 222 Rem. It was very slow but taught the basics.

Later I progressed to a Lyman Spartan Press. I loaded 222, 243, and 308.

When I started match Bullseye shooting, the Spartan Press was too slow for pistol. I got a Lee 1000 because It was supposedly faster and low cost. I used it for many years loading 45 ACP. It was indeed faster but took a lot of care and feeding to produce safe reliable ammunition. I constantly struggled. However, I can't count how many thousands of rounds I loaded with it. I often regretted not making a better choice. My initial focus was budget rather than long term quality. Its true, "You get what you pay for".

When the Bullseye shooting club I belonged to moved, I changed my focus to match air pistol shooting and gave away the LEE 1000. It wasn't missed.

Eventually, new ranges opened, and I got back into rimfire and centerfire shooting.

I started again on the Spartan press for 32 S&W Long, 327 Fed Mag, 45 ACP and 357 Mag. I eventually got a Lee Classic Turret Press (LCT) with auto index and a case kicker. A great press except too many primers ended up on the floor. Recently I learned that LEE improved the mounting bracket for the LEE Safety Prime. The new bracket reportedly improves reliability. Overall, the LCT is a very fine press. I loaded many thousands of rounds with it.

I wanted to try a progressive press again and began building a Wish List.

• I wanted to produce safe reliable ammunition quickly and safely.

• I wanted reliable and safe priming. Priming is the major weakness of every press.

• I wanted ease of use.

• I wanted 5 stations to allow room for a powder check die. I shoot a lot of light load 357 Mag which makes checking the powder level visually on the press difficult. I also like seating and crimping in separate steps. The LCT has 4 Stations. I size and prime separately to free space for a powder check die. Mirrors didn't help. This was a major motivator for a new press.

• I wanted to be able to expand as my needs change in the future

• I prefer automatic indexing. Manual indexing theoretically increases the odds of a double charge, especially without a good visual check or a p
  owder check die.

• I didn't need a case or bullet feeder.

• Easy caliber change wasn't initially a requirement. At the time I made my selection, I shot four calibers, three of which are very low volume. I can use my LCT for those. However, I recently bought a 9mm pistol and shoot it regularly.

• I didn't want to spend more than $500 without dies.

The choice came down between Hornady and Dillon. LEE was out on principal even though the LCT is a great press. RCBS progressives are rarely mentioned.

I've listed my thoughts on each:

Dillon

• Reputation for quality and support is the best in the industry.

• Square Deal was out since it was only 4 stations and I don't like the idea of proprietary dies.

• The 650 is a great press designed to work best with a case feeder. Priming is not on demand. A primer either goes into a case or down a slide. It also has a telephone dial primer feed. This design is more prone to cause a chain detonation through the dial and up the primer tube if something goes drastically wrong. I excessively obsessed over this even though it is not very likely and shouldn't be a major concern. But it can and has happened. The price was also more than I could justify at the time. Otherwise, it works like everything is on rails.

• The 550 was my favorite even though It is a manual index. It has priming on demand. Price was also right. Overall, I think this is Dillon's best press. Unfortunately, it's a 4-station press.

Hornady LNL AP

• Mixed reviews on quality and support. When it worked, it worked. When it didn't, it didn't.

• Priming is on demand.

• Automatic indexing with 5 stations.

• Price was more than right - a little over $400 with shell plate on sale.

• Expandable if needs change.

My criteria and wallet pointed to Hornady. My head and research said Dillon. I apprehensively bought the Hornady. I rolled the dice to save money. As luck would have it, I had issues. Here are just some:

• Primers would not feed. I found a video on YouTube from 76Highboy that solved the problem.

• The powder measure hopper wouldn't stay on and spilled a hopper's worth of powder over the bench. I sent it in to Hornady for replacement and asked for a positive hopper connection that they have done in the past for others. They just replaced the hopper to my disappointment.

• I never got the overly complex PTX expander to work properly. I gave up and I wasn't comfortable with the powder measure hopper staying on anyway. I use my LEE Auto Drum measure. It is so easy to set up with flare and powder drop in just minutes. It's also cheap enough to have one for each caliber I load in volume.

• Finally, I got everything to work. Then I started to get occasional light strikes with my 686. I never had one before. Rounds fired on the second hit. This indicates the primers were not set deep enough even though they were flush. I made sure I pushed the handle hard enough to seat a primer. I even double push. I tried the nickel fix under the primer seater punch to no avail. I called Hornady and all they guarantee is flush. Primers should be seated deep enough so that the anvil presses against the primer pocket bottom. This is usually several thousands of an inch below flush. The press has a hard stop and there is little feel for primer seating. I just wish seating was adjustable. I use an RCBS Bench primer to prime off the press. Primer seating feel is excellent. Same for the LCT. Both seat the primers below flush and I had no light strikes with either. I'm sure it's not the gun. It adds another step and removes a major advantage of a progressive press. Not everyone experiences this problem, but Google searches show primer seating depth issues are common enough. 76Highboy abandoned his press because of this and overall frustration with constant adjustments. I wish I knew that beforehand. My research was incomplete. 76Highboy was the YouTube go to authority on the Hornady Press. His video series on the press is excellent and was a factor in choosing the press.

• Recently, I started loading 9mm. Powder started to jump from the case as the shell plate indexes. It's a minor annoyance. I called Hornady who suggested I try adjusting the pawls or use less powder. Otherwise it's normal for 9mm. My load fills just half the case. I can minimize the spillage by placing my finger momentarily left of station 4 as the press indexes down. It seems to help. It's not a problem with the 357 Mag with its tall case and light loads.

Surprisingly, I can successfully prime on the press with 9mm. Primers still seat only flush. I fired just a few hundred rounds and no light strikes. If this continues, then half my problem is solved. I measured a difference in primer pocket depth between the Federal 9mm and the 357 Starline brass. The 9mm primer pockets are shallower. This may account for the better reliability. Both are well below SAAMI Max. I use the same primers in both.

If I could choose again, I'd choose differently. I didn't meet all my Wish List goals. Don't misunderstand, the press has some good features and the potential to be a great press and value. There is just a lot of annoying but mostly solvable problems. However, inadequate primer seating depth adjustment is a show stopper for any press. Nevertheless, I must make do with the tools I have. Other needs take priority over replacing the press.

Unfortunately, every time I reload now, I'm half expecting the other shoe to drop. I understand why 76Highboy sold his press and got a Dillon.

Shooting is a great sport and eventually reloading will be part of that if you're serious. But reloading shouldn't be a struggle. My focus should be on the sights; the trigger and the personal challenge, not a reloading press. I reload to shoot, not shoot to reload. Others may not have any issues with this press. It can work as my 9mm shows. It just hasn't worked consistently or problem free. The best press I ever had is the LCT and I recommend it highly. I regret not looking harder at Dillon. I may just be looking for greener pastures because I'm so frustrated. I know every press has issues. But there must be an easier way. I focused too much on budget. I wasn't thinking long term again and listened to my wallet instead of my head. I ignored an important lesson from the past and I'm suffering the consequences. I knew better. I've been here before.

I just wish Dillon made a 5 station 550!
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As a footnote, I found a thread on a different forum with a potential solution to the powder spillage problem. The poster states that the shell plate may be floating too high above the sub plate as it indexes. As the shell plate balls start to enter the sub plate detents and as they settle in, the shell plate drops hard onto the sub plate causing a bump. This causes the powder to jump from the case. The solution is to place shims on the drive hub to keep the shell plate and sub plate in closer contact during indexing to minimize the bump. The shims compensate for manufacturing tolerances and are custom fitted to each press. The poster also suggests that the shims improve primer seating depth. It may be worth a try. Here's the link:

How to tune the Hornady Lock-N-Load AP progressive press - Page 1 - AR15.COM

 

[Beemer-mark]

I have two Dillon SDB presses. The oldest one I've had more than 20 years, the newer on about 10. Had one set up for 357/38 and one for 45 acp. Have most of the same issues you mention, esp. in getting primers to reliably feed. I retired about a year so having more time I've gone back to my Lyman press. Before I quit using them I used to size and seat the primer outside of the SDB and then run the brass thru. Got that hint from one of editors in an old Handloader magazine.

Going back to the Lyman 6 position turret press I think over all I make better ammo. So in the time it takes to load 500 to 1000 rounds in the SDB, and then the day or two in getting it cleaned, adjusted and cursed at to get it working again, I could have loaded the same 1000 rounds without the frustration.

 

[Rule3]

And another Dillon love fest has begun.

 

[fredj338]

Nothing to do with luck choosing a good progressive press. See what the real users of a progressive use, the guys that shoot 10K + of one caliber a year. The vast majority will choose Dillon. Why is that, well because they just work, pure & simple. Cost, sure they are a bit more expensive than say RCBS or Hornady but not much. I would never consider a progressive press that must be tinkered with on a continuing basis, life is too short, I can always make a few more $$.
Price the LNL with all the case feeding stuff, about $75 less than a 650. For that you get virtually flawless priming, as noted the biggest issue with any progressive. You also get a superior case feeder. For $75, no brainer. If you never wanted a progressive, then a LNL works fine.
The Lee stuff has always been problematic. Time will tell if the new Lee Auto Breech lock is any good. For me, buying tools is about getting a job done faster & with a better result. So I really don't care that I have to pay more for something to complete a task. If the new Lee is all that & a bag of chips, I will be a buyer, but not until enough people have proven it a solid design.

 

[Protocall_Design]

I have been shooting competition since 1979. Tried them all at one time or another. Now I load on Dillon 550s. I got them instead of 650 because I prefer manual indexing. If there's a problem, you don't have to deal with the press always wanting to index when you don't want it to. Also, I load a lot of different calibers and different versions of a caliber. The 550 is economical to add another toolhead with powder measure. I have loaded many 10s of thousands of super accurate match ammo over many years with very minimal press problems. Just pick a toolhead, shellplate, and start loading.
The 650 is a good choice if you like auto indexing. Dillons just work. The no BS guarantee works too.

 

[Duckford]

I stand by all of RCBS's products, except one. I bought the 7 stage Pro Chucker and its been pure agony. Primers can get stuck sideways in the case leading to a huge headache to safely extract. Indexing was difficult and finally has gotten to the point I have to finish the indexing manually for every single load. Hate the thing, couple of times came close to being destroyed with a sledgehammer. Its such a junk pile that I wonder if RCBS even builds them or just brands them.

Too late to return it, and I never return things unless its completely broken anyways, I've just gotten used to it, although it has soured me on progressive reloading in general. Not going to spend a bunch of money for a blue machine because at some point I'll never make my money back buying a bunch of presses. Every time I think about mass loading handgun I get the feeling I should just skip it altogether. Only time I have fun anymore making ammunition is on the single stage, which is more fun anyways.

 

[dr. mordo]

I've had very similar experiences with the Hornady LnL with a couple of extras. The powder drop is consistent but changing to different calibers is a huge pain in the butt; it was replaced by a Lee Auto Drum which I love. I've also had powder spillage when cycling, broken garter spring, the rubber gaskets on the LnL die bushings eventually crush and fail to hold the bushings in place.

I also had issues with large primers failing to seat all the way. You can disassemble the bit that presses the primer into place and grind a bit off the exterior to seat primers all the way. That fixed mine.

Personally, I've had nothing but good experiences with Lee products, so if I were to replace mine I'd get a Lee Pro 1000 progressive. But the LnL works well enough for now, so it's not worth the trouble of replacing.

 

[Peak53]

I understand why guys that shoot tens of thousands of loads in competition need and want a progressive, especially a Dillon of one stripe or another. Its worth the time to tinker and get and then keep the thing running like a Singer. However, for those of us (me) that shoot a few hundred rounds a month, the LCT is really effective.

The four holer is just right, since I haven't found the need for other than a visual powder check. I visually check at the drop. I prime and drop powder on the press, otherwise what is the purpose? And I use the much maligned factory crimp die. The press auto indexes and I added the shell kicker for a bit of a time saver by not having to remove the loaded cartridge.

As mentioned, the potentially weak link is the priming step. It will pop a primer to the floor every once in a while. All it takes is a quick push with the finger to keep the primer loader properly aligned. Minor nuisance compared to all the other issues discussed above. It invariably seats the primer to the proper depth for worry free detonation. So, I can load 80-100 hand gun rounds per hour without rushing, depending on caliber, start to finish, all steps on the press. I get suitable accuracy for my non-competition needs. What's not to like? I even use it for 30.30, 7.62x39, and 30.06, although I disable the auto index and charge the cases in a separate operation using a stand alone powder measure, beam scale, and trickler. Progressives are for those that really need them, otherwise, the turret press rules.

 

[Nightowl]

I've been loading on a Dillon 450/550/550B for over 30 years and have had only a few adjustment, small parts issues with them. I only load about 10,000 rounds a year now, but if I had half the problems noted here .....well lets say that I abhor stuff that does not work!!!
I haven't liked auto indexing since I saw the problems a Star reloader had, way back when. I'm with Toolguy on this.

The 550B has a very positive primer seating system. Absolutely no misfires due to not seating the primers deep enough, you can feel them all the way to the bottom of the cup.

No need for a powder check 5th position. Just check the powder dropped with a scale once every 1000 rounds or so and your'er good!

And Dillons service is outstanding. Just call and parts are in the mail the same day. NO BS!

 

[rwsmith]

Yeah, what is with RCBS progressives........

They make great single stage presses, but I never hear about their progressives.

 

[Mark in GA]

There an ingenious aftermarket accessory that will give you the option to switch the primer feed on or off at the flick of a switch on the Dillon 650. This basically makes it priming on demand and gives you the extra station. I have one and it is slick as can be. I’ll post a like when I find it in a min.

Here is the guy on ebay: Dillon Primer stop switch | eBay

Mark in GA

 

[johngalt]

Been using my Hornady for over 10 years now, I've had very few problems. As with all presses, the priming system is the weak point. Sometimes the primer slide doesn't fully return with a new primer. This is usually caused by gunk buildup in the primer punch, so that it isn't flush.

Never had the misfire issue.

I haven't had to call their customer service for a long time, back then they were exemplary.

Don't have the case feeder, so no experience there.

 

[Skeet 028]

Hate to say it but you can get a lemon in any brand. I've tried most including ones no longer made(RDP MkV etc). I even had a Dillon shgtshell press that sucked. The Dillons seem to have the least problems but you have to have reasonable expectations in any machines. From all the feedback on all the presses it seems the Dillons are the most reliable. I have a couple of 1050s a couple of 650s and two (one unused for now) 550s. For the money the 650 is probably the best press for the money. I also have one Hornady down from 2 and no longer use it. I also have a Star in 38(wadcutters) and a CH Mark IV for 38/357 SWC loads. The Star is a great machine but no easily found parts for conversions. It is now being sold as will the CH soon. I'll stick to the Dillons for the time being. I have considered the new Lee progressive but after the previous Lee machines I have had...I think I will pass. I am even selling the Lee Classic Turrets. I'll use the money for components LOL

 

[kraynky]

Well thought out and through discussion on press options there neighbor. I studied magazines, asked gun shop owners and anyone that would listen to me at gun shows. (Pre-Internet) I jumped in with both feet on a Dillon 550b and all the accessories I could afford at the time. I have not regretted it yet. But I do think the average rookie ought to start with a single or even a turret type press, so they can focus more on the reloading process than they do figuring out how the machinery runs.

Got a buddy about to step into this addicting hobby, and for the right reasons. He wants a dependable and repeatable accurate ammo for his rifles. I think I just wanted more 38 super bullets and couldn't find them when I jumped on the reloading train.

Good food for thought! From everyone!

 

[SMSgt]

I use a Herter's press. It's brown. You'd be surprised what brown can do for you.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

There are some presses that are the worst and some that are the best. I have a rock Chucker that is so old RCBS has changed the color of green they painted it. I have a Redding T-7 and my Dillon. Mine started life as a RL450 and is currently up graded to a RL 550b. I also have or had a number of single stage presses. You just need to understand; No reloading press can do everything!

I've done in the neighborhood of 250,000 reloads and am surprised with new info all the time! I try to stay flexible about the surviving brands, but some brands just plain need better engineering! So since humans do the manufacturing there will be problems, choose a brand where Customer Service is prompt and Knowledgeable (worry about the freebies later!) I keep coming back to the same 5 brands: C-H, Redding, and RCBS for dies and non progressive presses and Dillon for progressive presses! The have very good pistol dies for progressive loading, but that isn't the whole world! The 5th brand is MEC for Shotshell presses non and progressive.

Ivan

 

[Kiwi cop]

Every press is a compromise.

Your list of requirements for your progressive press may have hindered your choices. Dillon SDB and 550b only have four die stations while your LnL has been a bit of a disappointment. The trick to any and all reloading presses is to get them to work in a way that suits you!

I currently run 3 Lee Pro 1000's set up for .45 ACP, 9mm and 38 Special/357 magnum. Plus I have an original 3 hole turret press for easily damaged cartridges such as 38 S&W, 44/40, 45 Colt and .32 Auto.

I have two issues. One is that I must seat and crimp bullets in seperate operations. The other is that I must ensure primers are properly seated before dropping powder, so I have worked out a way that these presses suit my reloading. And remember that the weakest link in all presses is priming.

I run two seperate turrets per calibre. One turret is simply for sizing/depriming. I run cases through the appropriate press in batches of 300 - 500 at a time after tumbling and lightly lubing, even though I use carbide dies in all calibers except 44/40. (Incidentally, lubing your cases can eliminate the "powder dump" your re experiencing. Unlubed the cases "catch" in both the sizing and expanding dies causing cases to "jump" in and out of the shell plate).

After sizing/depriming I use a hand primer to reprime the cases which are then stored in "clip lid" (tupperware) plastic containers until needed. With .45 ACP I use Winchester LPP and I will run the cases I load for competition shooting through a priming die mounted on an old single stage press just to ensure they are seated correctly. SPP do not have this issue, nor do Federal LPP which I use in 44/40 and .45 Colt loads.

When I need to load ammo I again lightly lube the primed cases and place the second turret on the press which has the powder measure (Lee auto drum for each press) in the first station. I seat the bullet by hand on the second station before seating and crimping at the third station. Last week I loaded 600 primed 9mm cases in under an hour.

With the 9mm and .38 presses I have them mounted on a high bench and sit in a standard chair. This lets me see each case feeding from the case feeder, if there is a double charge in cases and also check that the drum rotates every time. It also makes it easier for me to reach in to correct anything by hand.

The turret press is on a low bench and is sufficiently open so I can also see powder levels etc. The .45 ACP press is low mounted but I do not seem to have any problems with using it as such.
Oh, as I shoot around 300 rounds of either .45 or 9mm per week as well as a couple of hundred .38 Specials and 100 or so .357 Magnum 44/40 or .45 Colt each month I am either depriming/resizing or reloading at lest 2 days each week and sometimes more often. (I like to spend an hour after exercise in the mornings sitting at my benches)

Would I like a blue press or two? Yes i would. Do I need them? No. My "cheap and nasty" Pro 1000's are working just fine thank you very much.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

I currently run 3 Lee Pro 1000's set up for .45 ACP, 9mm and 38 Special/357 magnum. Plus I have an original 3 hole turret press for easily damaged cartridges such as 38 S&W, 44/40, 45 Colt and .32 Auto..

I think you and I are the only two people in the world that load 32ACP! 32 ACP and 32 S&W (short) are the second hardest rounds to load, 25 ACP would be the hardest! (Cast bullets in 22 Hornet rates right up there too!)

For Cowboy Action, "Belly Gun" (side matches) I needed lead bullet loads for my two 32 ACP derringers. I loaded a batch of 300 in 1996. I pinched and crushed my fingers on the mouth of the seating die enough for 2 or 3 lifetimes! I still have over 150 rounds left!

As I get older, I have lost much of the dexterity in my Thumb and Index finger "Pinching" ability, and those tiny shells and their tiny bullets are such a pain to load.

Ivan

 

[cds43016]

A major motivation for the new press, besides spending less time reloading, was to be able to use a powder check die with 357 Mag cast bullet loads. I can’t see the powder in the case with the LCT. I used mirrors, lights you name it, I just can’t see. It’s like trying to see coal dust in a stove pipe at night. There is no way that I will seat a bullet on a case without knowing the powder level either by seeing it visually or using a powder check die. Preferably both.

I had a powder measure fail. It was damaged in a move. Initially at the setup check, it threw accurate charges and then suddenly, the charges were all over the place. A part was damaged internally and eventually failed. The powder check die caught it immediately. If not, at best I had a squib, at worst I wouldn’t be around to write this post.

With the 9 mm or 45 ACP it’s easy to see the powder and verify the load. Many loads listed for 357 Mag cast bullets are light. On a single stage this would not be an issue. Powder is dispensed in batch and with a light over the tray its easy to see an issue. Not so individually on a press. Can I try bulkier powder? Maybe, but my load is very accurate. If the Hornady press worked as advertised, powder level validation would not be an issue. I would also spend far less time reloading. The less time the better. I like to shoot, not reload.

The press seems to work for my 9mm loads at least for now. But the light strikes with the 357 Mag is unacceptable. I will have to size and prime off the press for the 357 Mag if I want reliable ammunition. I’m back where I started. For some the press works fine, others not at all. I just landed in the middle.It depends on the individual press, the components and luck.

The problem is Hornady saying flush is good enough. It’s not if you want reliable ammunition. Slightly below flush is more generally accepted even by the powder manufactures. To go below flush you are own your own. There are many posted fixes from using coins, drilling and grinding to shims. Some are major surgery and would certainly void any warranty. There is no guarantee the fix will even work. Why this is not addressed by Hornady is beyond me.

I was aware of the aftermarket kit for the Dillon 650 to make priming more on demand. There are also kits to help with powder spillage. Both seem simple to install and seem to work. Why doesn’t such kits exist for Hornady? There must be a reason since the need seems large.

I didn’t intend for this to become a blue, red, green or even brown debate. I’m just relating my experience and venting my frustration of being abandoned. 76Highboy, who was one of Hornady’s strongest cheerleaders on YouTube, felt the same way and was driven to bluer pastures. At least I’m not alone.

Ultimately, I have no one to blame but myself. I rolled the dice and lost. From reading a post above, I’m just glad I didn’t buy a RCBS progressive. It could be worst.

 

[fredj338]

I have been shooting competition since 1979. Tried them all at one time or another. Now I load on Dillon 550s. I got them instead of 650 because I prefer manual indexing. If there's a problem, you don't have to deal with the press always wanting to index when you don't want it to. Also, I load a lot of different calibers and different versions of a caliber. The 550 is economical to add another toolhead with powder measure. I have loaded many 10s of thousands of super accurate match ammo over many years with very minimal press problems. Just pick a toolhead, shellplate, and start loading.
The 650 is a good choice if you like auto indexing. Dillons just work. The no BS guarantee works too.

I load on a 550 & 650. I just wish they would update the 550 to the 650 priming. Then it would be almost perfect.