What if they don't follow your commands?

[keith44spl]

Oak leaf cluster only means a second and subsequent awards. I have a Good Conduct Medal with oak leaves, it doesn't make me a badass.

My point was that is was a meaningless statement. If you want to tell us the guy was a bad *** say "The guy as a bad ***."

No, he was not a bad ***.......He was good man and he didn't put up with any foolishness.

He had survived four deadly force incidents.
The ribbon and oak leafs were presented by the Governor for valor.



**
It's not about the money, it's not about the attempted escape.

There have been a couple threads recently about stopping a crime in progress or apprehending a criminal. Those of us who carry a gun, do so for protection. We understand that we're not the police.

Here's a completely made up scenario...
While in the check out line at the local convenient store, the guy in front of you threatens the cashier and tells her to give him the money. She hands him some money. You present your gun and tell him, "Stop, drop the weapon and get on the ground!"

To your amazement he doesn't follow your commands and starts to walk out. What now?

I believe it's about the level of the threat toward the third person.
It's about the justification in using force in the protection of another.

If there was not an imminent danger....Nor real threat, where would be the need to intervene?




Gees, some jest need to return to the shallow end of this here think tank.

.

 

[Wise_A]

To your amazement he doesn't follow your commands and starts to walk out. What now?

Why the hell am I escalating a confrontation by drawing my pistol? The guy wants to walk out without shooting anybody? Great!

 

[triaxle]

You let him walk , we are not the police ,be able to ID the guy . If he starts to aim at people in line that would be different .

 

[Smoke]

It's not about the money, it's not about the attempted escape.
It's about the level of the threat toward the third person. It's about the justification in using force in the protection of another.

Okay but remember what I said?

Check the news this is literally a nightly occurrence in Colorado Springs. I'll bet you I can go to the crime reports right now at 2:40 a.m. and there have already been at least two convenience stores robbed tonight. ETA I was off by 1 hour and 20 minutes. They hit number 2 at 4AM

I will further bet you that in neither one of them were any shots fired and in at least one of them the news report will say the robber never even displayed a gun.

Again why am I going to escalate that?

Now having said all that, I was actually having this discussion with my wife earlier. We were talking about this thread. And she reminded me that because there are so many robberies around here we quit patronizing convenience stores probably three or four years ago.

So my real answer to Rastoffs hypothetical is "I wouldn't do anything because I wouldn't have been there in the first place."

 

[Muss Muggins]

Unless the bad guy is an imminent danger to me or mine, I'll be a good witness . . .

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

Here's a completely made up scenario...
While in the check out line at the local convenient store, the guy in front of you threatens the cashier and tells her to give him the money. She hands him some money. What now?

At that point I would be studiously studying the nutritional information on the back of my bag of Cheetos I was getting ready to purchase and clenching real tight. Stores got cameras-not my problem.
Edited to ad that I have encountered several times in court staged robberies where the cashier is "held up" by boyfriend. Usually the suspicions arise when the same cashier gets "held up" several times. I don't go to stop and robs after dark or ones NOT along well traversed roadways or in questionable areas.

 

[Ziggy2525]

Here’s a real circumstance. Happened yesterday morning. Three kids (18 to 20’ish) working together robbed three gas stations/c-stores, one right after the other. First one was a 6 a.m., second one a mile down the road at 6:15 a.m., third one a mile further down the road at 6:35 a.m.

In the first two, no weapons were shown. The clerks gave them the money and they were on their way. In the third one, at 6:35 a.m. one of the Rhodes Scholar bad guys decides to pull his pistol and fire it inside the c-store. A chp holder inside paying for gas draws and returns fire. No one was hit on either side, but in the exchange one of the BG’s mask fell off, his face caught on camera. Police knew him and arrested him a short time later.

If you were a chp/ccw (not a active leo) in the c-store when boy genius robber fired his weapon, what would you do? I say the armed citizen did good, but probably needs to go get some shooting lessons.

 

[Doug M.]

Considering the number of criminals who escalate situations by their (further) unlawful conduct of not complying immediately with the orders of cops, expecting one to obey you is borderline delusional.

Continuing the thought about offender behavior: depending on their goodwill for safety when they display the apparent ability and will to use deadly force unlawfully is even more delusional.

The public perception about violent criminals and their actions is way off. A large part of the blame for that is idiots in positions of authority in LE and prosecution who act as if offender safety matters, and fail to accurately express the legal and tactical analysis when a cop or citizen uses deadly force. The failure to tell the harsh truth about such incidents has made the situation worse, and it is cowardice of the worst type. Instead of saying how "sorry" they are about the use of force and death of that pleasant youngster who was just getting his life on track, they should be celebrating the triumph of good over evil and the well-being of those who were being victimized and are safe because decisive action was taken to protect them, be it a cop or some poor clerk working at the c-store.

 

[Camster]

Pull your gun, threaten the BG, then bleed all over when the BGs friend announces his presence. If the store was that concerned about the money, they would have guards.

I managed a C store, and we were under orders to let the BG have the money. Under current procedures, the BG can only access a few hundred dollars. Not worth a gun fight.

I knew of a Burger King manager who encountered that situation.Store policy was not to interfere with a hold up. He jumped over the counter,grabbed the BG, and the BGs silent accomplice put a 45 slug into his back.In a wheelchair ever since.Burger King's attitude was that he violated store policy, so too bad.

 

[Protected One]

Considering the number of criminals who escalate situations by their (further) unlawful conduct of not complying immediately with the orders of cops, expecting one to obey you is borderline delusional.

Continuing the thought about offender behavior: depending on their goodwill for safety when they display the apparent ability and will to use deadly force unlawfully is even more delusional.

The public perception about violent criminals and their actions is way off. A large part of the blame for that is idiots in positions of authority in LE and prosecution who act as if offender safety matters, and fail to accurately express the legal and tactical analysis when a cop or citizen uses deadly force. The failure to tell the harsh truth about such incidents has made the situation worse, and it is cowardice of the worst type. Instead of saying how "sorry" they are about the use of force and death of that pleasant youngster who was just getting his life on track, they should be celebrating the triumph of good over evil and the well-being of those who were being victimized and are safe because decisive action was taken to protect them, be it a cop or some poor clerk working at the c-store.

Two words:
Behavior reinforcement

 

[9adam1]

Retired 38 year law enforcement veteran. The suspect walks! Do not attempt to intercede. Holster the weapon immediately. You may consider announcing to incoming PD that you are legally armed. Otherwise anyone who witnessed you with a weapon may tell the responding officers that you have a gun and you may be lawfully detained until they know you are a good guy. Follow all PD directions.

You can help by identifying possible witnesses for the arriving PD and recommending to the clerk or management to secure any video tape for the PD. Try to take some basic notes on what yow saw and heard. Witness statements tend to change after repeating them over and over.

 

[ColbyBruce]

I am not an attorney

Whip out your cell phone and start a video of the incident. If that doesn’t divert the robber’s attention to you holler “Hey butt wipe”! When they turn on you, you have officially been threatened, on video.

 

[nachogrande]

OTOH

Two words:
Behavior reinforcement

ONE WORD ESCALATION. You are assuming said robber, more than likely a junkie, will LEARN or care whether he lives or dies. Why turn a 100$ robbery into a gunfight, endangering every person in the store to satisfy your need to play superhero? The robber will likely get caught eventually, quite possibly for something else & the life of a junkie may be worse than being in jail, if not caught. Each situation is different. With drop safes & camera's being/becoming the norm, "criminal masterminds" won't bother with the high risk/low reward.

 

[ColbyBruce]

“With drop safes & camera's being/becoming the norm, "criminal masterminds" won't bother with the high risk/low reward.”

Meth addicts are quite unpredictable, and then some people are just plain mean.

 

[LVSteve]

A strong arm robbery or armed robbery........

I know what I would do......I've saw me do it.

In the jurisdiction I worked in....Ya don't have to give em a call.


.

Seriously, there are some of you who do not understand what Keith said? It's not rocket surgery.

In the jurisdiction I worked in....Ya don't have to give em a call.

For me that reads that the attitude of local LE and the local courts was that no warning was required before shooting an armed perp.

I've saw me do it.

Keith shot the perp.

Was that so hard?

PS. Sorry if I'm wrong, Keith.

 

[nachogrande]

I AGREE 100%

“With drop safes & camera's being/becoming the norm, "criminal masterminds" won't bother with the high risk/low reward.”

Meth addicts are quite unpredictable, and then some people are just plain mean.

That is why you shouldn't expect them to obey orders or to learn anything. DO what you think YOU MUST, which MAY include doing nothing.

 

[ColbyBruce]

I had no idea how powerful meth was until I watched a meth head fight a pit bull over a water bucket. Meth must cause severe thirst.

 

[Camster]

Retired 38 year law enforcement veteran. The suspect walks! Do not attempt to intercede. Holster the weapon immediately. You may consider announcing to incoming PD that you are legally armed. Otherwise anyone who witnessed you with a weapon may tell the responding officers that you have a gun and you may be lawfully detained until they know you are a good guy. Follow all PD directions.

You can help by identifying possible witnesses for the arriving PD and recommending to the clerk or management to secure any video tape for the PD. Try to take some basic notes on what yow saw and heard. Witness statements tend to change after repeating them over and over.

Or a police officer just happens to walk in, as you have a gun leveled at the exiting BG,who is in the same direction as the PO. You could end up being shot,without too much dialog being exchanged.

 

[686-380]

May we assume...

I had no idea how powerful meth was until I watched a meth head fight a pit bull over a water bucket. Meth must cause severe thirst.

The meth head won that contest, right?

 

[M29since14]

I had no idea how powerful meth was until I watched a meth head fight a pit bull over a water bucket. Meth must cause severe thirst.

They’re entertaining, too! Once I saw one of them Bruce Lee-ing a poor old trash can at the Los Angeles Airport. It’s been awhile, but I still remember it. Quite a show. Mercifully, he did not come my way. Doubt he knew anyone was even around. The trash can seemed to have his complete attention - whatever was left if it.