S&W M&P vs COLT M4 CARBINE

[old tanker]

I was never a fan of the A2. The three round burst feature being the final indignity. I preferred the terminal effects of M193 ball from 1:12 twist barrel to those of of M855 out of a 1:7. Don't know about M855A1, except what I've read. But I will agree on the M68 and PEQ. Having used an AN/PVS-2 mounted on an M16A1, I can appreciate how much better things are at night.

While I spent most of my serious doing business time mounted, with a 90mm (or larger) option. I saw the rifle as only needing to cover to 300 meters max, most of the time. Beyond that, unless they somehow discovered my location, I preferred the PTT on the PRC-77 and a battery six of VT fused i55 HE to sufficiently convey my displeasure.

 

[the Ar-15 Junkie]

I don't think Colt plans to re-enter the civilian market, at least not anytime soon. Prices on used ones are going up well over the cost of a new one when you could get one. As soon as Colt announced no more being available to dealers they were all gone in a few days. The market is saturated with $500 AR's and many saw the Colt as overpriced, which it wasn't.

Good luck finding one.

Arms Unlimited have 100's of Colts in stock including the ones without furniture for $799.00. As of this morning when I bought one they had 21 left in stock.

I just bought a Colt M4 SOCOM 14.5 pin and welded 2 weeks ago from Clyde Armory, they had 2 huge stacks of them sitting in their showroom floor. $1449.00. On their facebook page.

Luck is NOT needed in finding one.

 

[the Ar-15 Junkie]

And unlike Smiths that come with cheap plastic handguards, the Colts cheap plastic handguards comes with DUAL Heatshields.

Smiths are cheap fun guns, but people need to be honest with themselves on what they are actually getting with them.

 

[McChemist]

I don't think Colt plans to re-enter the civilian market, at least not anytime soon. Prices on used ones are going up well over the cost of a new one when you could get one. As soon as Colt announced no more being available to dealers they were all gone in a few days. The market is saturated with $500 AR's and many saw the Colt as overpriced, which it wasn't.

Good luck finding one.

If Colt abandons the civilian market, then I don't know what market they plan to serve. The new Army carbine/rifle and SAW weapons will fire a 6.8 mm round. As of May 2019, the bidders were General Dynamics, FN, PCP Tactical, and Sig Sauer. Unless Colt is subcontracted or somehow involved, the military market seems like a non-starter. The Army wants to field this in 2020 or 2021.

 

[AManWearingAHat]

How do you know?

Ive handled, shot, owned, competed with and along side several examples of AR's made by most brands you can think of. Colt included. Friends of mine also shot competitively in the industry circuit and relayed their experience to me.

Additionally have a look around at what the top competitors in any shooting game that uses an AR use you'll be hard pressed to find a Colt (except perhaps the guys who are paid to shoot them), you'll spit in the wind and hit a DD or a Noveske. You're welcome to spend your money on whatever roll mark suits your fancy, but I maintain there is absolutely nothing special or unique about Colts anymore.

 

[the Ar-15 Junkie]

Ive handled, shot, owned, competed with and along side several examples of AR's made by most brands you can think of. Colt included. Friends of mine also shot competitively in the industry circuit and relayed their experience to me.

Additionally have a look around at what the top competitors in any shooting game that uses an AR use you'll be hard pressed to find a Colt (except perhaps the guys who are paid to shoot them), you'll spit in the wind and hit a DD or a Noveske. You're welcome to spend your money on whatever roll mark suits your fancy, but I maintain there is absolutely nothing special or unique about Colts anymore.

How do you know?

 

[AManWearingAHat]

How do you know?

Shooting, building, disassembling, maintaining, and competing with AR-15's across several brands for most of my adult life? What's not clear here?

They're decently built rifles that work well. Nothing more nothing less. Several other companies do the exact same thing, some at a better price point. My whole point is several other companies have also exceeded Colt's variety of offerings, build quality, out of the box accuracy, and reliability over a decade ago. The only thing special about the Pony rifles is the roll mark if that's your particular fetish.

 

[the Ar-15 Junkie]

Shooting, building, disassembling, maintaining, and competing with AR-15's across several brands for most of my adult life? What's not clear here?

They're decently built rifles that work well. Nothing more nothing less. Several other companies do the exact same thing, some at a better price point. My whole point is several other companies have also exceeded Colt's variety of offerings, build quality, out of the box accuracy, and reliability over a decade ago. The only thing special about the Pony rifles is the roll mark if that's your particular fetish.

How do you know?

 

[rtquig]

How do you know?

Come on, your response is sounding a little childish after the second time. It is his opinion. You don't have to agree or disagree.

 

[Rastoff]

Only very high end users will be able to tell the difference.

The value is in the design. Stoner made a brilliant design. Yes, there are differences in quality or longevity, but you won't ever notice.

 

[Imissedagain]

The Colts are like the BT99s of Trap.
They get the job done, break 25, and keep on running.
Resale value, if maintained properly, is good.... not that I would sell any of them.
A Series 70 MKIV Gold Cup is the same, a starter with a decent trigger.

My '79 Sporter felt like a conductor's baton.
When I bought the 6920s, if I closed my eyes, it felt like picking up an FN-FAL....front end Heavy........ wishful thinking.

My boy, his Marine Gunnery Sergeant/Machinist buddy and his USAF MP buddy since kindergarten, the 3 Star General's boy, rarely missed at 300yds, at Homestead with stock irons, although the rear is plastic.

 

[rockquarry]

I'm not much of an AR zealot like many folks here seem to be. I've had experience only with Colt ARs, and only three of them. No complaints. I seldom do any modifying to any gun - no trigger or handguard replacements, no optical sights that have oddball reticles or require batteries. If a firearm doesn't perform as expected straight out-of-the-box, I generally don't keep it long.

I can't see a need to overheat or abuse a barrel by seeing how fast a magazine can be emptied. To me, ten rounds through an AR means it needs a cooldown. I've tried many cheap, bulk ammos - all went bang but none were accurate. The only factory ammo I've found that shot with good accuracy was a Federal Match round. Lots of experimentation with powder, bullets and primers has resulted in accurate handloads.

After reading the comments on this thread, it seems it might be worth the trouble and expense to buy one or two AR copies, maybe an S&W and/or Ruger and do a lot of shooting. I have no real idea what is available from either manufacturer or others. I don't know whether buying the cheapest model, the most expensive, or somewhere in between (if such choices are available) would be the best route to follow, but it might serve as the basis for an interesting informal project.

 

[feduncan]

I mostly want a good "M4 TYPE" Carbine to keep at home for self defence. It probally won't get shot a whole lot, as there isn't many compatitions going where I live. I'm disabled. My left arm got messed up bad in a motorcycle wreck several years ago and I have limited use of it from the elbow up to the shoulder. That's why I need a colapsable stock on the weapon in order to be able to hold it up to my right shoulder as I'm right handed. I also intend to install a Laser so I would be able to shoot from the hip also. The maximum distance I would use it would probally be around 50 yards. The way politics is going now I wanted to get something this year before the elections come up. So that's the main resons I want it for. What ever I buy I don't intend on selling it unless I end up with a malfunctioning firearm.
Thanks every body for yor advice and comments,
FE Duncan

 

[cyphertext]

Guess I'll dip my toes into this...

Value is perceived by the consumer. What I consider a great value, others may not. In my line of work, value is derived from two parts, utility and warranty. Utility means it is fit for purpose, or "what it does". Warranty means it is fit for use, or "how it is done". If you have both of those, your product or service is providing "value".

So if I apply this to the S&W, the utility is that the firearm is an AR-15 style, semi automatic sporting rifle for the civilian market (non-military) that is accurate, reliable, and safe to shoot. We could also say that the Colt shares the same utility. Both rifles are fit for this purpose.

Warranty is where it differs. S&W uses 4140 steel for the barrel, where Colt uses 4150. If I look at the utility, or purpose, the 4140 steel meets the purpose. The 4150 also meets the purpose, but it was actually used to meet a different standard... three round burst or auto fire. The consumer would have to decide if they see value there or not. Personally, I don't.

Chrome lining is the same type of thing... When fired semi auto, chrome lining doesn't offer more protection than a nitride barrel or extend barrel life. If you fire a lot of full auto cycles, chrome has an advantage. Again, not worth a premium to me.

We can go back and forth on all the specs... full auto carrier vs. semi carrier, twist rate, M203 cut out, etc.

S&W did leave heat shields out on the Sport to reduce costs. Don't have the concrete facts to prove it, but based on pictures on this site, most owners change out hand guards anyway.

Long story short, the Sport meets my needs when it comes to an AR-15 patterned rifle. For the difference in cost, I can buy an optic, or ammo and range time.

 

[cyphertext]

I mostly want a good "M4 TYPE" Carbine to keep at home for self defence. It probally won't get shot a whole lot, as there isn't many compatitions going where I live. I'm disabled. My left arm got messed up bad in a motorcycle wreck several years ago and I have limited use of it from the elbow up to the shoulder. That's why I need a colapsable stock on the weapon in order to be able to hold it up to my right shoulder as I'm right handed. I also intend to install a Laser so I would be able to shoot from the hip also. The maximum distance I would use it would probally be around 50 yards. The way politics is going now I wanted to get something this year before the elections come up. So that's the main resons I want it for. What ever I buy I don't intend on selling it unless I end up with a malfunctioning firearm.
Thanks every body for yor advice and comments,
FE Duncan

Sounds like a M&P 15 Sport would meet your needs. Handle one before you purchase to make sure it is not too front heavy though. I'm not sure how much your disability affects your use of a rifle, but you may want to look at an AR pistol with arm brace as well...

 

[WR Moore]

Guess I'll dip my toes into this...

The consumer would have to decide if they see value there or not. Personally, I don't.

Chrome lining is the same type of thing... When fired semi auto, chrome lining doesn't offer more protection than a nitride barrel or extend barrel life. If you fire a lot of full auto cycles, chrome has an advantage. Again, not worth a premium to me.

The US Army Match Training Unit (competition shooters) would disagree with you. They found no significant difference in accuracy between the two types, but a marked difference is barrel life in what's termed across the course (semi-auto) match shooting. This was particularly true in the match nick named the "rattle battle": a 600 yard rapid fire match.

Our tax dollars at work.

 

[cyphertext]

The US Army Match Training Unit (competition shooters) would disagree with you. They found no significant difference in accuracy between the two types, but a marked difference is barrel life in what's termed across the course (semi-auto) match shooting. This was particularly true in the match nick named the "rattle battle": a 600 yard rapid fire match.

Our tax dollars at work.

Interesting... my info came from a barrel manufacturer.

 

[the Ar-15 Junkie]

Only very high end users will be able to tell the difference.

The value is in the design. Stoner made a brilliant design. Yes, there are differences in quality or longevity, but you won't ever notice.

Your reply is exactly like the ones on the various crotch rocket forums where a squid goes out and buys the latest 200HP liter bike, then squid claims no one can use all its power, because he cant use all its power. Make sense? Because you cant notice doesn't mean the rest of us cant.

 

[the Ar-15 Junkie]

Come on, your response is sounding a little childish after the second time. It is his opinion. You don't have to agree or disagree.

Correct, his opinion and why exactly do I not have any right on a discussion forum to agree or disagree with said opinion?

 

[sgtsandman]

This discussion is going the way I expected. Just like the "which pistol round is the best" debate. No consensus will ever be met and it just breaks down into bickering back and forth.