Burglary last night

[steelslaver]

Ah, most small time thieves probably wouldn't spend the money for a decent grinder, some slitter disks. Plus, I can probably cut twice as long and more steel than most people with thin disks. To much pressure, side loading, etc shortens their life fast. A 6" wheel will cut twice what a 4 1/2" will. But are more expensive. I get them in boxes of 50.
Unless you got some real money the chances that a real pro visits you are small. 90+% of the time it is some small time knuckle head. Then, your safe has a good chance of deterring them from getting your stuff. Hey, I keep mine in a safe, many times better than a closet.

Most good metal guys didn't get that way by being lazy. Learning good metal skills isn't that easy. Most thieves are not into hard work. Like my stepdad used to say, "You can leave a pick laying on the job site, a pick only says work to a thief" If I was going into a life of crime one of the last things I would steal or anyone with a real brain is guns. Serial numbers, the feds etc. Maybe a store house full, but not a residence. Jewelry stores would be much easier. Always thought a big construction job near a mall would be a good criminal opportunity. Get in a bid front end loader (a Cat key, works in most Cats, ditto John Deere etc). First explode a couple small bombs in dumpsters on the far side of town. Fire up the front end loader, blow through the doors and hit the jewellery section of the mall. Might nail an ATM or two if they were handy. Dump the load into the back of a pickup and haul freight. Now that is how I would do a "smash and grab" Melt the rings and sit on the rocks for 8 years.

Actually, if I really wanted to enter a life of crime I would buy some nice suits and a bunch of campaign posters.

 

[Farmer17]

As a side business I build above ground FEMA concrete safe rooms in houses and office buildings here in Tornado country. The walls and roof are 6 to 8 inch 4000 PSI concrete with #4 rebar at 16 inches on center up and down and side to side. We put in sleeves for a couple lights and an HVAC vent and the door is a 3’ x 6’-8” heavy duty steel door with a high security latch set and three high security Yale deadbolts and the door alone cost about $1,700 and is extremely heavy but some people will pay more for an actual vault steel door if they have a lot of guns or valuables. The typical safe room is 8’ x 8’ wide by 8 feet tall and costs about $7,500 turnkey materials and labor. I have built a few that are as big as 20’ x 15’ but there are probably a few guys on the forum that still couldn't fit all there guns inside.

 

[WR Moore]

The theft should be reported to the police and entered in the NCIC computer. There's no telling just where these guns might show up. and the NCIC is a national database.

The NCIC is a national database if, and only if, the LLEA enters the data into the system. Not all do.

 

[rock n roll kid]

sorry that happened ......

my garage was broken into twice . finally got a motion sensor light & a good dead bolt lock . so far after 3 years all is good. but i NEVER stored my guns in my garage . when my 115 lb akita died a few years ago , i decided a gun safe was in order . i have a 7 gauge hvy duty safe . the door is the thickness of 2 quarters & 1 dime on edge .... pretty substantial !
do not buy cheap big box store safes . a good safe will run you some $ but well worth it !

 

[steelslaver]

my garage was broken into twice . finally got a motion sensor light & a good dead bolt lock . so far after 3 years all is good. but i NEVER stored my guns in my garage . when my 115 lb akita died a few years ago , i decided a gun safe was in order . i have a 7 gauge hvy duty safe . the door is the thickness of 2 quarters & 1 dime on edge .... pretty substantial !
do not buy cheap big box store safes . a good safe will run you some $ but well worth it !

Sorry, but 7 gauge is only 3/16". It wouldn't take me 30 minutes to have it wide open. In fact I am sure I could cut 3/16' at about a ft per minute, with a good grinder and 6" x.045 disks, so on the side of yours a 4'x2' hole would easily take less than 20 minutes even taking 30 seconds now and then to put in a new 6" disk. Doubt it would take twice as long as a cheap Stack On safe. Or I could cut a 6" square then a 16" square around the lock in less than 10 minutes. Removing that would allow me to cut out the bars and just swing the door open and not expose anything inside to the sparks.

If I was really in a hurry I would use 9" disks and one of my big grinders, a leather jacket and my Jackson welding helmet with just a clear lens. Going to be a few sparks. Stand back.

Carry in a Plasma cutter, pop out 2 of your circuit breakers and pop in a couple prewired for the Plasma and have at. Quieter, but, bulkier and heavier and plugging it in might take 10 minutes. A grinder is a "plug and play"

The type of steel don't matter much either, stainless, armor plate all cut well with plasmas or grinders. Unless you go to something like carbide. Now carbide is hard to grind, but then its really easy to shatter. Won't take any kind of side loading either.

It will keep out Joe causal thief though. But it isn't really that much more than a heavy duty cardboard box to a real steel guy.

Steel reinforce concrete is a real pain to get through. Gotta make some serious noise. Unless of course you go to the super cool method and shatter it.

Check the criteria for a UL listing. It does not include a grinder attack. Drills, and 18" pry bars. Those are just "hobby" tools. Plus, on the drill part my mag drill and a carbide bit will go through some serious metal fast.

 

[wheelgun28]

Sorry, but 7 gauge is only 3/16". It wouldn't take me 30 minutes to have it wide open. In fact I am sure I could cut 3/16' at about a ft per minute, with a good grinder and 6" x.045 disks, so on the side of yours a 4'x2' hole would easily take less than 20 minutes even taking 30 seconds now and then to put in a new 6" disk. Doubt it would take twice as long as a cheap Stack On safe. Or I could cut a 6" square then a 16" square around the lock in less than 10 minutes. Removing that would allow me to cut out the bars and just swing the door open and not expose anything inside to the sparks.

If I was really in a hurry I would use 9" disks and one of my big grinders, a leather jacket and my Jackson welding helmet with just a clear lens. Going to be a few sparks. Stand back.

Carry in a Plasma cutter, pop out 2 of your circuit breakers and pop in a couple prewired for the Plasma and have at. Quieter, but, bulkier and heavier and plugging it in might take 10 minutes. A grinder is a "plug and play"

The type of steel don't matter much either, stainless, armor plate all cut well with plasmas or grinders. Unless you go to something like carbide. Now carbide is hard to grind, but then its really easy to shatter. Won't take any kind of side loading either.

It will keep out Joe causal thief though. But it isn't really that much more than a heavy duty cardboard box to a real steel guy.

Steel reinforce concrete is a real pain to get through. Gotta make some serious noise. Unless of course you go to the super cool method and shatter it.

Check the criteria for a UL listing. It does not include a grinder attack. Drills, and 18" pry bars. Those are just "hobby" tools. Plus, on the drill part my mag drill and a carbide bit will go through some serious metal fast.

You are 100% true but these "safes" are just to make it less palatable to deal with. Any safe can be opened it just matters how much time it takes to get in.

A grinder running in my garage/basement will attract the neighbors. Flame cut or plasma, risk burning the house down or the safe contents. A metal cutting circular saw, loud but fast? My understanding is that pry attacks are the most common. Perhaps a hole saw above the lock and just reaching and open the lock. Just don't hit the relocker...

They cut into bank vaults, your home safe doesn't stand much chance if they are determined. Now if you have layered security, video cameras, alarms, secured rooms, multiple safes, and good insurance. All just makes things more difficult to steal. Most burglaries are done in a few minutes in and out, gone.

Really with the knowledge you just need a battery drill and a small bit.

I personally like several smaller safes rather than one giant one, bolted down and in places that make it hard to pry open. It is just more work to get everything.

 

[Old Corp]

I spent 10 years of my LE career assigned to residential burglaries. Saw many hundreds of residential B&E's.

In the instance you described, almost certain that someone known to you shared some information and some quick bucks are now being made by the involved lowlifes.

While successfully entering gun safes, aka 'residential security cabinets' using various power tools and/or torches is a popular topic - it actually is seen on a comparatively very small scale.

I've seen many attempts that could hardly even be called that - hammer strikes to the dial and/or keypad, some door-edge prying, even had one where the suspect found an unsecured 12 ga. and some 00 Buck and shot the middle of the safe door - twice. Made a 3/4" dent.

Most of the time it's idiots needing property for fast cash for drugs. They have zero mechanical skills and even less intelligence. And all the using tools and such is work, which they're allergic to and increases their chance of apprehension.

Was your scene processed by forensics by the responding LE agency or their designees? Clean metal cabinets/safes are great surfaces for latents.

 

[moosedog]

I don't know if your investigating agency told you but there's a good chance of the thieves or their friends giving it another try in the future. Dopers and perps talk to others just like themselves and the fact that they scored a decent amount only ups the chances of it happening again.

 

[TIMETRIPPER]

Sometimes they take the safe. A few years back we had a spree of rural burglaries. Guns, coins, jewelry and electronics were the main goal. One case involved the theft of a whole gun safe. The perps knew the owner was away and that he had a nice collection of old Winchesters in a safe in his basement. Apparently the thieves used a truck to yank the cellar Bilco door off its setting then dragged the gun safe out of the basement using chains. It was done in broad daylight. As far as I know, nothing was recovered.

John

 

[Puller]

I've always thought it odd that real crimes like this are virtually ignored by law enforcement; meanwhile the focus is put on catching violators of laws that shouldn't exist.

Before we go too far down the road blaming law enforcement for "ignoring" the crime, it's fair to note how inexpensive an effective security system that makes a lot of noise would have been in preventing these valuables from being stolen in the first place.

My wife can't even get to my secured guns without me knowing about it, while someone waltzed into the garage here, unlocked the cabinet with a key, and left with the goods while someone was home.

 

[steelslaver]

Unless your in an apt building or your neighbors house is right on top of yours they are not going to hear a grinder, They just are not that loud, especially if you have decent insulation and tossing a blanket on a window would deaden the noise and hide the light. Plasmas don't throw off less sparks than a grinder and a few wet rags would handle them and the slag.

Like old Corps said and I said earlier learning metal skills is to much work for the majority of thieves.They are thieves because they want whatever easy.

Spending huge money on a safe don't help much, a medium security safe, coupled with a surveillance camera system will stop the almost everyone but a real pro unless they have inside information.

Hiding a key or the combo isn't that great of plan. I bet most petty thieves are cunning enough to figure out most hidey holes.

I bet a chunk of chain, a piece of 4x4 x 3/8" angle and a hydraulic jack would force a safe with almost no noise. BTW

I would love to have a legal opportunity to bust open a safe.

 

[4506517]

My garage door got opened last night and thieves stole 11 of my handguns from my locked cabinet. They found the key or knew where it was.

Let me start by saying I am sorry for your loss. I investigate tons of property crimes every year. At least you have your serial numbers, which is better than most. Your investigating officer should have them entered into NCIC as has been mentioned. There will be specific "NICK NUMBERS" attached to them.

Now let me address what everyone is dancing around. It doesnt sound like those firearms were properly secured. By "locked cabinet" I am fairly certain you do not mean a proper RSC. My guess would be that like most people, you think, "this is a low crime area, won't happen here". Guess what? It just did.

Second, why on earth would you store your keys close by? Again, I think the "it won't happen here" just reared its ugly head. Why didn't you lock the garage door? Especially if you store firearms in a cabinet in there? Almost every garage door has a twist handle lock and push in tabs on each side at the bottom. Obviously these were not used.

I store guns in a garage. I store them in a Liberty Lincoln 50. Not a "locked cabinet". While perhaps not the best money can buy, it was the best I could afford. It was almost $5000 delivered. AND bolted to the floor. Sitting in front of that is a car we seldom drive. Garage door handle is twisted to locked and locking tabs at bottom and sides pushed in. Door is secured at 4 points.

The key? Buried in the bottom of my sock drawer in my nightstand. Luckily all the does is unlock the combination wheel. It takes forever to get into that thing. Why? Guess the answer is painfully obvious.

For your sake, I truly truly truly hope that above all else, your dad's service weapon is recovered. I'm sure the sentimental value is unimaginable. I hope that all your pistols are recovered and returned, but don't hold out hope.

This is a painful lesson folks continue to learn on a daily basis. Theft is a real.and serious crime. You are statically more likely to suffer theft than any other type of crime. We so easily fall into "it won't happen here" that we make it easier for thieves to play their trade.

I'm sorry it happened to a forum member.

I wonder how many will take heed from your unfortunate experience and correct their lack of security? Sadly, statistics reflect very few will.

 

[Beemerguy53]

...I would love to have a legal opportunity to bust open a safe.

There are plenty of videos on the internet showing how to get into a safe. In most of the ones I've seen, success depends on being able to lay the safe down on the floor, with the door facing up, which then allows the thief to gain leverage between the door and the frame with a pry bar or some other lever.

Lesson learned: Always bolt your safe to the floor it sits on.

 

[Beemerguy53]

Rusty, I am so sorry this happened to you. Without knowing exactly where in Montana you live, I would think, and hope, your guns can be recovered.

As big as Montana is geographically, the population is very small: More people live in the Baltimore metropolitan area than your entire state. Seems to me that the thief has got to be someone known to you, and isn't going to be able to hide that crime for very long. Somebody is going to notice that he's got some new guns, and ask where they came from...or he's going to try to sell them or pawn them...or he'll get drunk and shoot his mouth off. Somebody else is going to find out about this.

If you haven't already done so, I would suggest you contact pawn shops nearby and in neighboring states. Also check the listings on Gunbroker and other auction or sales websites. Notify any shooting ranges or gun clubs nearby, in case the thief shows up there to do some shooting.

Has anyone in your extended family or circle of friends lost his job recently and needs money? Have you discussed where you keep your guns with neighbors or co-workers? Have you posted any photos of your guns, or your garage, on social media? Have you had any parties, or gatherings, at your house (Christmas, New Year's Eve?) where you took another gun enthusiast out to your garage and showed him your guns? Where someone saw you retrieve the key to the cabinet? Ever been in your garage working, and have somebody walk by and stop to chat with you...while noticing your cabinet? Ever had the garage open and visible when a delivery company brought you a package?

I feel terrible for you...I hope things work out.

 

[Doug627]

I didn't read all the responses so I apologize if this is a repeat answer. After calling the police, contact all gun dealers in your area about the thefts. Box stores and pawn shops, too. Fax them a list of the guns and the serial numbers.

 

[walkin jack]

My sincere condolences. I feel your pain and I hope you find out who did this and get your property back...and BURY whoever did it.

If anyone ever does this to me they better take ALL the guns. If they leave one and I catch 'em or find out who they are, well, I have a shovel too.

 

[Trooperdan]

Have there been any developments in the last fe days? Any leads or anything recovered? I feel for you greatly!

 

[Kanewpadle]

There are plenty of videos on the internet showing how to get into a safe. In most of the ones I've seen, success depends on being able to lay the safe down on the floor, with the door facing up, which then allows the thief to gain leverage between the door and the frame with a pry bar or some other lever.

Lesson learned: Always bolt your safe to the floor it sits on.

The videos normally depict safes that are known to be easy to get into using this method. Safe companies such as Liberty have designed the bolt works in their safes to prevent this.

Any safe can be breached. I’ve done it many times. But the better the safe the more time it takes.

 

[rwsmith]

I would bet my life.....

Turns out it was his 15 year old daughter's boyfriend. We think boyfriend may have been in the home when he returned from the range or a hunting trip, saw some guns, and asked the right questions of the girl, to know when to do it.


Guess what? Some of the jewelry and tools showed up at a pawn shop, and there was video and a drivers license copy,.........of his wife's nephew!

Both times, the thief was known to the victim and had intimate knowledge of the family's loot, schedules, and storage locations.

Both were young men in their late teens and trusted by the victims. (the boyfriend? maybe not trusted so much)

When my son was a teen I didn't trust his 'friends' as far as I could throw them. I bought a safe, first reason safety. Second reason, to keep those drug addled hoodlums (at the time my son fit that description) out of my stuff. We lost other things around the house during those years. Kids act 'nice' when you talk to them, but as soon as they are out of your presence they revert to animals.

So I'd bet my life somebody knew where you kept the key, probably tipped off by whoever had seen you open your cabinet.

 

[TheHobbyist]

@ the OP, sorry for your, hopefully, temporary loss. I recently had someone run up expenses to me and was not notified until a decent amount was spent...purposely leaving this very open ended. I was fully reimbursed, unbelievably.

As others stated, it is very likely that it is someone known to you or within a degree or two/three of connection; which is even more frustrating. Thing is, the person who may have initiated this chain-of-events may have been oblivious to what they were talking about. For instance, I have a friend, who is a gun collector and one of his friends who, was just starting to get into the hobby, made a blanket statement at a gun show that my friend owned a lot of firearms. He was specific and with it being a relatively small town, instantly, a lot of strangers now had this knowledge....my friend talked to his friend about how he just gave an open invitation to being robbed and the newcomer genuinely did not realize it. Thankfully, nothing happened.

If you have the internet, thankfully now there is an additional layer of security you can add to a multi-level plan--although there are those who argue that it too can also be comproised. That is, the digital / internet cameras that hook into the internet and notify you based on motion. Have to weigh the pros and cons, but sadly it is best to take multiple levels of precaution and not share this information with anyone. Tip: If you have active video recording, depending on your state, you are obligated to post a sign somewhere that this is occurring. The size of the sign and location is area-specific.

Sorry for this (hopefully) temporary loss. It stinks. Its nonsense.