Rethinking your carry choice in light of the riots.

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The kid shouldn't have been there in the 1st place. Its not like he was defending grandpa's business; he got in a car with a gun, illegally, and went there.

I saw a video of the 1st shooting where it looks like he got a molotov cocktail thrown at him. Was that the 1st victim, i dont know. If it was, that could be self defense. The 2nd shooting sequence definitely was, but agsin, he broke the law by just being there with a gun.

I predict he'll get convicted of gun charges and other things, but not murder from the 2nd shooting. Maybe the 1st again, I dont know. Regardless, he just screwed his life up.
 
Ziggy2525 said:
I agree about the kid crossing state lines and age for possession of the AR. There's at least one video I've seen of him at the moment he shot the first rioter. Aren't you being disingenuous implying those videos don't exist? What's in dispute is the who initiated that first attack. There are videos of the first guy killed charging the guys with guns saying "Kill me <vulgarity>." On video, the guys with guns are saying the rioter attacked the kid. On video, there are rioters that are saying the kid attacked first.

But, as I mentioned in my post it's not about debating justification . It's about debating round count and are you changing what you carry.
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Never said those videos don't exist. I've seen some. There was nothing on any that I saw to justify using deadly force under the prevailing interpretations of American law (not admitted in WI, can't speak to specifics of their laws).

You shouldn't need to consider changing your carry specifics in response to an incident where someone broke the law and sought out violence. If you live within the law, and carry only for self-defense, there is nothing to be learned from this incident aside from how to land yourself in a world of legal trouble for doing stupid things.

I can't legally carry where I live, so I don't. But if I could, and made the decision to, I would base it primarily on my competence with that particular firearm. I don't get into caliber wars but I have small hands so higher capacity with smaller cartridges works best for me.

But most important, I would do the same things I do now in terms of situational awareness and being prudent not put myself in situations where I'm particularly vulnerable to harm. The odds of being randomly assaulted by a mob of people are exceedingly low. You're more likely to die from having a tree fall on your house or drowning in the bathtub.
 
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bigben55 said:
I saw a video of the 1st shooting where it looks like he got a molotov cocktail thrown at him. Was that the 1st victim, i dont know. If it was, that could be self defense.
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Ironically, he would have had a better self-defense justification if he'd shot the molotov cocktail guy *before* he was able to throw it. But once the guy threw it (and not particularly close to the shooter, from what I could see), he arguably no longer presented an immediate threat of death or serious bodily harm, likely nullifying the claim of self-defense (again, depending on the specifics of WI law).
 
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Bottom line, a teenage law enforcement wannabe grabs an assault rifle, drives 50 miles to prowl around an obviously emotionally charged up protest/riot and puts himself in a position where he shoots 3 idiots.
Final toll - two dead idiots, a severly wounded idiot, and the biggest idiot having run his life into the deep muck of murder trials and imprisonment.
For what? A brief glimpse of some sort of LEO recogition? Teenage fantasy of being a hero? Four ruined lives for absolutely...nothing.
 
Before this thread gets whistled dead, I apologize for invoking Wisconsin. I have a former LE friend who lives there... A decent place that has become a national hot spot.

There is much more happening there than the 17yoa shooting. The foolishness exhibited by all parties in that fiasco exceeds the bounds of anyone on this forum. My core takeaway is nearly everyone at these protests is armed in some way, firearm, Molotov or skateboard. Hence Muss's excellent observation.

The much more appropriate and applicable story may be the 71yoa male who was assaulted and then hospitalized whilst trying to put out a fire. He was a member of the fraternal order that was presumably received the arson, so had an elevated relationship and a potential reason to be there.
Kenosha man, 71, attacked in Uptown riot | News | kenoshanews.com

I also made a mis-statement on the National Guard numbers yesterday. Local Kenosha officials have been very negative on the Wisconsin Governor's support. Latest reliable report I saw was 279 Guard pax, unarmed, protecting the Courthouse only.
 
bigben55 said:
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I predict he'll get convicted of gun charges and other things, but not murder from the 2nd shooting. Maybe the 1st again, I dont know. Regardless, he just screwed his life up.
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Probably. It'll be like Bernard Goetz. He'll get convicted of illegal possession. ETA - To convict him of murder, they'd need to find 12 jurors in Kenosha that would be willing to convict the kid for shooting a rioter that was trying to burn down their town by throwing molotov cocktails. I suspect that will be an uphill climb. Last I saw, molotov cocktail guy was a felon and registered sex offender. If that's the case, it won't come up in court, but by the time it gets to court everyone will know. I would think it would make that hill that even steeper.

JS Esq. said:
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If you live within the law, and carry only for self-defense, there is nothing to be learned from this incident aside from how to land yourself in a world of legal trouble for doing stupid things.
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Nah. There's always real lessons to be learned from real-life experiences. Beyond that doing stupid things get you in stupid trouble.
 
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Mrnurse said:
You start shooting folks scatter...your best weapon during lawless riots is the 3500lbs car... you have to run em over till you can leave the area.
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Mas Ayoob suggests turning on your 4 way flashers and leaning on the horn if you have to move your vehicle to avoid rioters dragging you out of it. My suggestion is to get a fore and aft dashcam or two for all-round coverage.
 
Mas Ayoob on dealing with the threat from mobs in or out of vehicles. Pay attention to his thoughts on AR or Krinkov pistols, hearing and eye protection. I recommend this. Also, if you don't have one, get a front & rear dash cam.
Defense Against Mobs
 
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Casino said:
I live in suburban NY where its next to impossible to get a carry permit, but my trusty old model 10 is close by at home always, and have added a couple of lovely M1 Carbines to the house. I consider them one of the perfect home defense guns.
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would like a little advise on which m1 carbines you feel are most reliable. had one 60 years ago, but traded it for something else.
 
17 year old with more guts than adult??!! Now THAT is stupid. The kid has an unformed brain the size of a walnut. That's why he's not allowed to vote or drink. He's probably been playing to many video games and can't discern real life from fantasy. Well, he won't make that mistake agin. As for a change of CCW, I carry the same and stay out of the city. Nothing good happens after dark and if you have to take a full combat load, you've got no business going there.
 
Capt. F. said:
No, not anticipating changing what I carry. Especially after watching the guy that shot the protester in New Mexico.
These people are cowards. All it took was a couple of shots bringing down one of their buddies and they scrambled like rats from a sinking ship.
Confident that my Model 66 2 1/2" is up to the task.
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Since I saw a number of "protesters" armed with AR-type rifles and handguns on the television, I'm satisfied that my decision to change my carry guns from a 2" Model 12-2 and a 4" Model 65-1 to a 4" S&W SD9 and a 3.1" Ruger EC9s with 2 extra magazines each was a wise decision. Seeing the lack of hesitation of "protesters" in Kenosha to chase Kyle Rittenhouse down the street after he'd shot another "protester" with his AR-15, I'm not satisfied that gunfire or actually shooting someone will cause them to scatter "like rats from a sinking ship."

YMMV
 
Here's a full analysis of the Kenosha shooting. It's requires you to sign on to Youtube. Stitches together multiple videos that covers the shooting from the beginning to the end.

It doesn't make a case for or against the 17 year old. It's just the facts as of yesterday. You'll need to copy and paste the URL into a browser.

youtube.com/watch?v=pbsOIoqcit4
 
I don't have an opinion one way or the other as I haven't seen the available evidence yet, but I thought it was interesting when I got an e-mail from GOA saying they were going to help support him in his case.
 
ContinentalOp said:
I don't have an opinion one way or the other as I haven't seen the available evidence yet, but I thought it was interesting when I got an e-mail from GOA saying they were going to help support him in his case.
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Probably one of the things, according to his attorney, is he didn't bring the rifle across state lines. He lives a few miles from Kenosha, just across the state line in Illinois. Sounds like he came with his med kit to be a medic for his friend's group that was protecting whatever building he was at. According to his attorney the friend lent him the rifle. Rifle never left Wiscosin.
 
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