Rethinking your carry choice in light of the riots.

[ContinentalOp]

What makes you think we're "ignoring the realities" and just rushing headlong into the OK corral with guns blazing?

Probably because you said this:

Many of us are a little too old to be duking it out with a pack of crazies. I'm not going to attend karate classes at this point in life. That's why we carry guns.
They shouldn't start fights with elders.

 

[Mister X]

What makes you think we're "ignoring the realities" and just rushing headlong into the OK corral with guns blazing?
It's short sighted to assume things like that about someone you don't even know, isn't it?
You have your plans, I have mine and mine have served me well for a long time.
I hope yours work as well for you.
Stay safe

I assumed nothing. The comments in my post were simply reflective of what you wrote, which to me seemed dismissive of the need for unarmed skills and indicative of a mindset that is over reliant on your carry gun.

If that's wrong, I would love to hear your plans should you get jumped by one it more unarmed attackers. I'm always eager to learn.

 

[BAM-BAM]

I assumed nothing. The comments in my post were simply reflective of what you wrote, which to me seemed dismissive of the need for unarmed skills and indicative of a mindset that is over reliant on your carry gun.

If that's wrong, I would love to hear your plans should you get jumped by one it more unarmed attackers. I'm always eager to learn.

What's your plan, if we may ask.....or are you just trolling for the fun of it.

To recognize that our "unarmed skills" aren't what they once were... is not dismissive... it recognizing the reality of no longer being 30...........

That said there is no single plan for getting "jumped by one or more unarmed attackers"..... are you talking a good old fashion mugging now..... or do you plan to take a evening stroll through a "declared riot" area.

The past two years I've done simulation and ALICE training with our local police dept....... your greatest weapon is your brain and it's ability to react and improvise.....................no "plan" cus you don't know what's coming ....

Took out 6 shooters in different scenarios......Only got killed once in ALICE Training cus I didn't have a gun........

 

[Mister X]

What's your plan, if we may ask.....or are you just trolling for the fun of it.

To recognize that our "unarmed skills" aren't what they once were... is not dismissive... it recognizing the reality of no longer being 30...........

That said there is no single plan for getting "jumped by one or more unarmed attackers"..... are you talking a good old fashion mugging now..... or do you plan to take a evening stroll through a "declared riot" area.

The past two years I've done simulation and ALICE training with our local police dept....... your greatest weapon is your brain and it's ability to react and improvise.....................no "plan" cus you don't know what's coming ....

Took out 6 shooters in different scenarios......Only got killed once in ALICE Training cus I didn't have a gun........

He's the one that mentioned having plans, so I'm interested in what he meant and what they might be. I have no clue to his context, but was hoping he might elaborate.

Civil debate is always extremely useful in these matters and that is always my intent, although that seems nearly impossible on most gun forums. I present my ideas so that they will be challenged to see if they hold water and I would think others would feel the same. I have a lifelong interest in evidence based self-defense and my questions are genuine.

It's obviously hard to get into details, not knowing the specifics of a situation, but there are some basic guidelines, principles and generalities of H2H, weapon access and retention that can apply to a very wide spectrum of situations, but at least some details have to be known before any kind of reasonably accurate answer can be given.

The individual must be considered and adaptations made. I've worked with LEO's, world class fighters, corporate executives, the disabled and each required a different methodology since the goals were as different as the individuals. You mentioned waning physical capability with age. So, have you acknowledged that in your training and made appropriate adjustments? My mother is elderly and has her carry permit. She doesn't get around very well, so running away or footwork isn't a concern. She's just not physically capable of stuffing a weapon draw or takedowns or parrying punches, but she can learn some simple basic positioning strategies, how to cover up effectively and to access her weapon in that context.

In terms of the post you quoted, it's more a matter of the education and training you've received. If you have absolutely no combatives, force on force or extreme close-quarter firearm training, you'll probably not fair too well in a self-defense encounter that occurs at contact range against a physically superior assailant.

 

[bonjorno2]

I carry extra magazines and make sure to scout out my route before heading into the city.

 

[Protected One]

I'm not sure where you get the "usually three or more" from, but even if there were more I bet they would be beating feet for calmer pastures.

From the last FBI report on Home Invasion statistics that I read.
Its been a couple of years but I doubt the number has decreased.

"Perhaps" they would be beating feet - the most common reaction, but possibly they might be like the 4 who kicked in the door of a lady in Detroit. One had a handgun. She was armed with a High Point 9mm carbine and she opened up on them...hitting no one. They all ran out, but regrouped and came back at her again before finally running off as she continued her inaccurate shooting.

They were all eventually caught because of the footage from their exterior security camera. But you see the point.

 

[Muss Muggins]

No critical thinker can justify this response:

"If I'm just walking around the house, I carry X, but if I'm going somewhere I think will be trouble, I carry XX, and I might add XXX."

In the words of Sgt. Major Choozoo, "It sure does help knowing when and where you're gonna be hit, sir . . . "

Pick the gun you count on to save your life, and carry it. Pick the most effective gun that fits your outfit. That's why I change pistols. Not because of where I'm going . . .

 

[bigben55]

Exactly. I carry my Glock 43x IWB the most often. When I'm wearing shorts or some outfit where i need to pocket carry, its my Taurus .38 snubnose. When I'm out at the farm we hunt, which is fairly out there with no cell service, very few neighbors close or cops within 20+ minutes, I open carry my 686 6" OWB. That farm is probably the last place I'll find trouble, but its a place where if I DID, I would HAVE to deal with it myself.

Pick the gun you count on to save your life, and carry it. Pick the most effective gun that fits your outfit. That's why I change pistols. Not because of where I'm going . . .

 

[LPD256]

No critical thinker can justify this response:

"If I'm just walking around the house, I carry X, but if I'm going somewhere I think will be trouble, I carry XX, and I might add XXX."

In the words of Sgt. Major Choozoo, "It sure does help knowing when and where you're gonna be hit, sir . . . "

Pick the gun you count on to save your life, and carry it. Pick the most effective gun that fits your outfit. That's why I change pistols. Not because of where I'm going . . .

Around the house I have several options with longer barrels. Because I don't need to conceal anything. Outside, weather and clothing probably are the determining factor. I carry a little bigger with a jacket or cover clothes. Shorts and a t-shirt right now make it a little lighter and more concealable. But still deadly.

 

[M E Morrison]

in the past I carried a CA 44 special when I lived out in the country.

when I moved to a medium size town, I upgraded to my 1911 Combat Commander.

when I went to my kids home just before the riots. I moved up to mt High Power and extra mags.

yep, circumstances do make a difference!

 

[HardToHandle]

Lots of opinions are being offered.

I would recommend folks take the time to review the Kenosha WI situation underway. Nice community of 100k, middle income, quasi-suburban, equal split red/blue, etc.

Avoid the national news outlets and troll farms (inc. Fox News). The local KenoshaNews-dot-com has good coverage of the events - clean-up by day, pitched battles by night. Specifically, note the sheer amount of firearms, body armor and other violent indicators being displayed by protestors and counterprotestors.

This is not an environment where normal responsive 911 service is occurring. The present 1500 armed National Guardsmen and 1000 mutual aid law enforcement Officers is not considered adequate.

No intent to make this a political post, but to stress the need to (1) evaluate current situations and (2) be aware that relative isolation is not a comprehensive buffer. Staying at home, to avoid the mayhem, may not work when the mayhem comes to you.

 

[Muss Muggins]

when I went to my kids home just before the riots. I moved up to mt High Power and extra mags.

yep, circumstances do make a difference!

What prompted you to upgrade before the riots?

 

[elm_creek_smith]

Hip & back problems keep me limited to a very light pocket gun anyway.

I was recently diagnosed with degenerative disk disease and spinal arthritis with spinal stenosis as a possibility (MRI on Sep 5th) with sciatica affecting my right leg. It made carrying my Model 65-1 and Model 12-2 S&Ws nearly impossible. I discovered Perry suspenders from Duluth Trading Company to keep the belt load off my hips. I still hurt, but I'm able to carry my S&W SD9 with 1 or 2 spare mags and/or my Ruger EC9s with 2 spare 9-round mags without increasing the pain. I wear the suspenders under my Hawaiian shirts so concealment isn't an issue.

The heavy carry is mostly due to having to travel a lot to get my wife to and from her medical appointments, unfortunately through and to some cities that have had problems recently. I listen to local news channels when in those cities and endeavor to avoid detours in favor of alternate routes and listen for reports of "disturbances" to avoid trouble. If something happens despite all that, my right foot will go down if there are no hard obstacles in front of me. If I can't move my vehicle, all bets are off. I've started carrying hearing protection in the vehicle for however many people it carries.

 

[elm_creek_smith]

...fare...

 

[Smoke]

The gun that I carry at home is a Glock 26. I actually would be confident carrying that outside of the house as well.

I've said this before but the predominant reason that I carry a gun at home is more because that way I don't have to stop and put it on if I go to take the trash to the dumpster or go to check the mail or take a load of laundry to the laundry room than it is that I'm worried about a home invasion.

At home I'm surrounded by four walls and a barred door. You're not just going to kick down my door and walk in. I live on the second floor so I'm not overly concerned about someone coming through the windows.

Almost every time I read about a home invasion in the newspaper or hear about it on the news somewhere in the report it's stated that the home Invaders either came right through an unlocked door or the homeowner opened the door without first identifying the person on the other side.

I'm convinced that keeping my doors locked and identifying who's there before I open them will have a much larger deterrent effect on a home invasion or robbery then what kind of gun I'm carrying.

 

[bigben55]

I dont have a gun on me, sitting on the sofa watching TV at home. I dont carry mowing the lawn, or grilling out on the deck, etc. Im sure that makes me vulnerable but I dont plan to do all that either. I keep my door locked. I live in a safe, one way in and out neighborhood right across from the police station. I got a big super protective dog who sees and hears everything and would totally attact and bite the **** out of an intruder. I have LOTS of guns, sleep within reach of 4, can get to a loaded gun in seconds from anywhere.

If im gonna get jacked getting the mail, I guess thats a risk I'm willing to take. But I totally respect anyone's choice to have a gun on them all day at home.

 

[Ziggy2525]

Kenosha shooter

Not trying to get into a debate about the Kenosha shooting being justified or unjustified, just analyze it from an SD standpoint. Mods, if too graphic, please delete, but I think there's good SD info here related to the topic of "Rethinking your carry choices."

From the videos...

1) Kid with AR was attacked by mob (I know - it may be in dispute). Looks like it took the kid 4 shots to break away from the mob.

2) Kid shoots the first guy in head. This guy dies. There's not good video of this part, so hard to tell exactly what happened.

3) Then the kid is chased down the street, trips while running backwards, and falls.

4) While he was on the ground, second attacker tries to kick him in the head. It looks like the kid shoots him in the foot. Interestingly, while this is on video, it doesn't look like it's being reported anywhere.

5) Next, another attacker tries to smash kid's head in with a large skateboard. Kid shoots him in the chest. This guy dies.

6) Last, another guy pulls a Glock on the kid (check the pistol sights in the videos), but doesn't shoot. Kid shoots him in the bicep and blows a chunk of his bicep out. Guy with Glock retreats.

7) The mob stops chasing him. Kid tries to surrender to the police, but they are too busy with the riot so he goes home.

Lots of discussion in this thread about "round counts," but here's a real case where a 17 year old kid that was a good shot stopped a mob attack with 4 hits. Granted, it's an AR, but it could have been a pistol as well. One advantage the AR gave him is he had it on a sling, so he didn't lose it when he fell.

Not advocating for more or fewer rounds, but it's a real data point for what's being discussed in the thread.

 

[max503]

Not trying to get into a debate about the Kenosha shooting being justified or unjustified, just analyze it from an SD standpoint. Mods, if too graphic, please delete, but I think there's good SD info here related to the topic of "Rethinking your carry choices."

From the videos...

1) Kid with AR was attacked by mob (I know - it may be in dispute). Looks like it took the kid 4 shots to break away from the mob.

2) Kid shoots the first guy in head. This guy dies. There's not good video of this part, so hard to tell exactly what happened.

3) Then the kid is chased down the street, trips while running backwards, and falls.

4) While he was on the ground, second attacker tries to kick him in the head. It looks like the kid shoots him in the foot. Interestingly, while this is on video, it doesn't look like it's being reported anywhere.

5) Next, another attacker tries to smash kid's head in with a large skateboard. Kid shoots him in the chest. This guy dies.

6) Last, another guy pulls a Glock on the kid (check the pistol sights in the videos), but doesn't shoot. Kid shoots him in the bicep and blows a chunk of his bicep out. Guy with Glock retreats.

7) The mob stops chasing him. Kid tries to surrender to the police, but they are too busy with the riot so he goes home.

Lots of discussion in this thread about "round counts," but here's a real case where a 17 year old kid that was a good shot stopped a mob attack with 4 hits. Granted, it's an AR, but it could have been a pistol as well. One advantage the AR gave him is he had it on a sling, so he didn't lose it when he fell.

Not advocating for more or fewer rounds, but it's a real data point for what's being discussed in the thread.

Wow. I haven't had time to research this incident - but your version is way different than what I heard on CNN last night around midnight. They made it sound like he went "hunting" for rioters.

 

[JS Esq.]

He crossed state lines with a gun he could not legally possess in public due to his age. That's an important starting point.

Moreover, it's completely disingenuous to ignore the fact the video being referenced in the sequence above occurred *after* he had already shot and killed someone. The "mob" was attempting to disarm an active shooter fleeing from a crime scene.

 

[Ziggy2525]

He crossed state lines with a gun he could not legally possess in public due to his age. That's an important starting point.

Moreover, it's completely disingenuous to ignore the fact the video being referenced in the sequence above occurred *after* he had already shot and killed someone. The "mob" was attempting to disarm an active shooter fleeing from a crime scene.

Half the people that were there filming are saying the the kid was fleeing a mob after defending himself from a deadly force attack. That's for a jury to decide.

I agree about the kid crossing state lines and age for possession of the AR. There's at least one video I've seen of him at the moment he shot the first rioter. Aren't you being disingenuous implying those videos don't exist? What's in dispute is the who initiated that first attack. There are videos of the first guy killed charging the guys with guns screaming "Kill me <vulgarity>." On video, the guys with guns are saying the rioter attacked the kid. On video, there are rioters that are saying the kid attacked first. Again, juries decide who's facts to believe, right.

But, as I mentioned in my post it's not about debating justification . It's about debating round count and are you changing what you carry.