A 1911 that was Elmer Keith's

Kieth's .45

Congratulations on your purchase! For what it's worth, I don't care if you call them clips or magazines, as long as they work! If it were mine, I'd put a new bead in the sight, shoot it some, take care of it and treasure it for it's history. L. O. G.
 
It was my distinct honor to meet up with Sixgun today at an LGS, and get a chance to see some of his incredible collection. I had the opportunity to hold, and yes, dry fire Elmers (now Sixguns) 1911. Given the opportunity, I would shoot it.

Lots of folks there were impressed with the gun. Here's a pic of a fat old man with an iconic bit of history:
 

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I have a signed copy of "Hell, I Was There" and you now own a gun that actually WAS there!
The N.R.A. stamping should be on the frame under the serial number though this number falls in the range of other known NRA examples. Elmer clearly liked his guns his way. This pistol from 1914 is carrying several parts found on WWII 1911A1 pistols including the magazine which should have a lanyard loop (this mag is a commercial), the long tang grip safety, the arched mainspring housing and of course the short trigger. I can't tell if the trigger is stamped or an original 1911 that was ground down. Regardless, I'm certain it's just the way he wanted it.
 
Rick Bowles said:
I have a signed copy of "Hell, I Was There" and you now own a gun that actually WAS there!
The N.R.A. stamping should be on the frame under the serial number though this number falls in the range of other known NRA examples. Elmer clearly liked his guns his way. This pistol from 1914 is carrying several parts found on WWII 1911A1 pistols including the magazine which should have a lanyard loop (this mag is a commercial), the long tang grip safety, the arched mainspring housing and of course the short trigger. I can't tell if the trigger is stamped or an original 1911 that was ground down. Regardless, I'm certain it's just the way he wanted it.
Click to expand...

That's interesting on the NRA stuff serial range, I thought that was the case but I wasn't certain. I'd love it to be an NRA provided gun and I am wondering if there are records around as to which were sold that way. It sounds like they didn't really keep records though, given how they seem to have been randomly pulled off of the rack.

I have this mounting suspicion that the "NRA sold it to me" was a story particularly savvy people who came home with a 1911 told so as not to get into trouble. ;)

As to the magazine, I wouldn't mind finding an original Springfield at some point just to add to the package. I'm sure this magazine was just whatever Elmer happened to have left in it the last time shot it, or whatever someone tossed in there.

All the parts you are talking about there seem to be things King did, I'm not sure if they took the parts from something else or were fabricating them themselves.
 
Keith mentions your gun at least twice in his book, Sixguns. On page 48 he mentions the DCM/NRA connection and W.R. Strong. Here he relates the story as Captain Strong using "several" clips, rather than "seven" clips, at Chateau Thierry. He mentions adding the checkered, arched MSH in the 1920s, along with the shorter trigger and longer grip safety. He also added a wider rear sight and Patridge type front sight.

On page 116 he mentions having "the King Gun Sight Company, now known as the Ricky Gun Sight Company, of San Francisco, fit higher front and rear sights to my old .45 Auto, and it then became much better for long range shooting...."

When D.W. King died in 1945, many of his parts and ideas were stolen by gunsmiths who worked for him. King made his own parts. Some of his former employees started Micro and copied his sights but they did so by infringing his patents. Another group of employees negotiated with his widow for patent rights and they named the company "Ricky" after one of the founder's young sons. So, Elmer's gun would have had the sights changed twice; once in the 1920s and again in the late 1940s.

AFAIK, I have the most complete list of N.R.A. marked M1911 pistols, compiled over many years. Your gun falls in the right range but does not appear on the list. I don't know of any that were sold through the NRA without the stamp but I guess it's possible.

Regards,
Kevin Williams
 
Fantastic, thank you Kevin. My copy of Sixguns is with my Dad at the moment and I was itching to get it back and comb through it for references to the gun. Thanks for the information there.

Great answer on the NRA guns, that's exactly what I was hoping for.
 
Great story about the 1911. And thanks for the copy of the article about the hunt. Mr. Keith's article about that tragedy summarizes why I gave up hunting many years ago. Death by "friendly fire" occurs in many locations. I saw it in Viet Nam, and too many saw it in Afghanistan and Iraq. When do we learn? Mr. Keith left us many lessons. It is a pity that more people cannot read.
 
I like those sights. Not surprised about the short trigger change: Elmer had short fingers.

I do think I'd strip and clean and oil it, and might fire a few "clips" through it, then mostly retire it. Those old 1911's have relatively brittle steel, and I'd hate to see this old gun damaged by firing. It's probably 100 years old and I've read that metals fatigue some with age.

You can easily find info on field stripping a Colt .45 auto. Even I can do it. Detail stripping might be left to a gunsmith or a careful man with some mechanical skills and a manual.
As you have other.45's, I assume that you mean a thorough cleaning.

Elmer knew Bill Strong quite well and admired him. I think that Keith believed that bit about Strong killing maybe 49 Germans with it. I wouldn't write it off as being pure hyperbole, although I'd like to see documentation. Keith later recalled that Strong had said "several" clips, not "seven." That is probably correct. He probably didn't even have seven clips on him. Few would have.

John Basilone, MH killed a lot of Japanese with his .45 on Guadalcanal. Don't know if he knew or said just how many. Sgt. York, MH killed eight in a few seconds in WWI. Most that he killed were slain with his .30 Springfield rifle. The 132 prisoners that he took evidently didn't doubt his skills!
 
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I'm probably going to regret expressing my opinion on the clip thing but that's never stopped me before! Yes, the acceptable lexicon regarding firearms can vary. Shoot... this is America, you can call it a magazine, a clip or a school bus if you like. I always heard that a magazine has moving parts and a clip, like a stripper clip or moon clip has no moving parts. By the way, is it an automatic or a semi-automatic?
 
This is just terrific all the way around. I admire your throw-caution-to-the-wind attitude in getting the gun. It's trite but you're only young once and missed chances are just that--missed and likely never to be had again.

My regrets with guns are not the ones I bought, but the ones I didn't buy when I had the chance. As Hemingway said, the road to hell is paved with unbought stuffed dogs.

As you wrote, a lot of the pleasure of acquiring the old 45 is going to be the research you do about it and Keith and the history surrounding them.

I look forward to more posts about it and a range report!
 
Sixgunstrumpet: Don't obsess about the cost. After all, you only paid $982 for the gun plus FFL fees. That's barely above what a brand new nice 1911 costs.

That is what you told your other half, right??????????????

I read somewhere a mans greatest fear right before dying is that his widow will sell all his guns for what he said he originally paid for them. She will be a good business person and get your money back..........
 
Congrats Caleb, very nice piece and I am seriously envious!!
I gave Ted Keith a call after the auctions and he said that his family was astonished at the prices the guns fetched. He said his wife mentioned.....
"I can't believe guys would pay that kind of money for all those old guns" and they were amazed at the results especially of the double rifles that sold.
Ted has had some serious health issues as of the past few years including heart conditions and he has recently been diagnosed with Parkinson's.
Ted was fortunate to have a father who left him with such treasures to say the least.
Ted once told me that when his father passed away, there was a pilgrimage of guys showing up at the house telling Lorraine that "Elmer promised that gun to me when he died" and paid her next to nothing......Ted soon put an end to that......but I can only imagine how many wonderful guns left that house in the hands of those guys!

Let me know when we can connect so I can get a close look at the new toy!
 
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majortoo said:
Great story about the 1911. And thanks for the copy of the article about the hunt. Mr. Keith's article about that tragedy summarizes why I gave up hunting many years ago. Death by "friendly fire" occurs in many locations. I saw it in Viet Nam, and too many saw it in Afghanistan and Iraq. When do we learn? Mr. Keith left us many lessons. It is a pity that more people cannot read.
Click to expand...
Way late with this but Elmer believed Mr. Strong was killed as he was about to audit something in the State's business. Elmer believed with out actually accusing him that the shooting was probably intentional.
 
I recall this gun well from Elmer's writings,, and if no one mentioned it, the gun belonged to Capt. Bill Strong, who killed a number of Germans with it in WWI. Elmer got it after Strong's death and added the A-1 features.

Well, I was careless. Should have read posts right above mine. Obviously, Strong has been mentioned! I think I may be in a different thread than I thought. This is an old one...
 
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