Police shooting 9mm failed to stop bad guy

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I can tell you as a paramedic with thirty years plus in the business that I have seen many D.R.T. that were put there with cheap ammo and small calibers. On the flip side I have been to calls where the individual took a large caliber round(s) to the chest and abdomen sitting up talking to the crew on the way to the hospital. I have seen an individual take a .357 magnum round self inflicted to the left side of his chest through and through walk to the cot yelling h wish he had not done that because it hurt like hell. The way I see it is every individual is different in not only body type but pain tolerance and some just shear will. Some are so jacked up on drugs or medications that unless you hit them in a major blood vessel, organ or the central nervous system they will not go down without one hell of a fight. Me I carry what I shoot well and hope to god I never have to use it. I seek out the ammunition that functions well in those weapons and that's what I carry. I get the whole argument we all have favorites we all heard the stories and watched the videos me I would rather the officers have something that functions well after evaluations, research and range time.
 
The fact of the matter is that literally every round in existence has failed to stop someone, somewhere, at some point in time, and while folks continue to use each and every instance of such an occurrence as a means to backup their cartridge of choice, the simple truth is that the world is an imperfect place, things seldom turn out the way that we expect them to, even with the most careful of planning, and frankly until someone literally invents a handheld weapon which is capable of completely disintegrating the target at the cellular/attomic level, there will never be a guaranteed one-shot-stop.

Honestly, this is coming from someone who isn't a fan of 9mm Luger too, in fact I feel that it's overrated, but realistically speaking, any shot that falls to result in incapacitation with a 9mm would be equally as ineffective with a .45 because ultimately shot placement is the single most decisive factor in a gunfight.
Seriously, if a 9mm misses a vital organ, then realistically speaking, a .45 might graze it at best, which isn't realistically going to make a difference in overall effectiveness.

Do I share the sentiment that all cartridges are somehow magically equal in terms of performance because there's no significant visible difference in a block of gel with no bones? Certainly not. Do I agree with the sentiment that 9mm is so close in performance to other duty cartridges that it makes no significant difference? I'm skeptical of that as well.
However, I have come to believe that ultimately Law Enforcement's decision to switch to 9mm Luger was a sound decision on the grounds that if you're going to outfit an equal opportunity workforce of officers with a single cartridge, then it's a good idea to pick one that virtually anyone can shoot effectively, costs less money, and will still be effective with proper shot placement.

9x19 Luger is an effective duty cartridge. Period. If you favor another cartridge and feel that it's more effective, then more power to you, carry is ultimately a personal choice, and there is no ideal one-size-fits-all cartridge for self-defense, and anyone who asserts otherwise in an arrogant fool. However, don't go cherry-picking cases in which a cartridge fails to stop someone as an example to back up your choice, especially not if an innocent was harmed/killed in the process, essentially using their hospital bed or coffin as a soapbox to promote your cartridge of choice. Have the guts to carry what you want regardless of what others think, because their feelings are irrelevant to your own personal choices and you shouldn't need their approval.

Personally, I've found that I love .40 S&W, a cartridge that folks by and large think isn't worth a darn, but I don't care, I just like it, and I carry it because I like it, the end. But guess what, 9mm works too, it can even work better for some. Sure, I wish that folks wouldn't be so obnoxiously insistent that it's a terrible cartridge which never had a valid reason to exist, and whatever they carry is always better for everyone on Earth including myself, but that's life, some people are just insecure jerks who need to have all of their life decisions validated by appealing to authority and putting down anyone who doesn't follow the same line of reasoning. Don't be like them. If you like .357 SIG (or whatever) then like it because you like it, don't go putting everyone else down or seeking validation. Okay? Good talk, carry on.
 
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Well I carry a 38. I might as well be a dead man walking. I wonder if anyone told the stakeout squad or all of the pre turn of the 18th century Patterson and Colt Navy .36 caliber users this? :D
 
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From one of my posts on a different board:

"There's a very significant difference between a mortally wounded target and an incapacitated target. Anytime the 1986 Miami shootout is referenced [it was in the original post], this distinction needs to be highlighted. Both of the perps were mortally wounded pretty early in the fight. They were gonna die. But they weren't incapacitated and killed or maimed most of the agents present before CNS (incapacitating) hits were achieved.

With hunting, we care only for mortal wounds, preferably quickly through shock and blood loss. Unless you're a tool (or hunting dangerous game) you're not blasting the animal over and over again. Line up a good shot, take it, and assess. Stuff you're not doing in a firefight. IMO the traditional 'double tap and assess' is a double action revolver drill. With a 9mm holding 19+1, I'm doing a Mozambique at the least and if they're still standing after the third shot, I'm doing it again.

The whole idea behind medium-power weapons with a high rate of fire and large magazine capacities is they give the most chances for that CNS hit in the shortest period of time. The FBI test is designed around penetrating and hitting the spinal column. We're all trained to shoot center mass not only because it gives the best chance to hit under stress, it also is the best target.

There's a lot of science that shows you don't get an incapacitating shock effect from non-CNS hits until you get up into very powerful handguns (not .357/10mm...keep going), medium-bore rifles, and buckshot/slug from a 20g or greater. And even then it's not consistent. Severing the spine or sending a guy's brains out the back of his head are really, really consistent."

Anytime I read "we used 9mm 115gr" especially the Silvertip, I stop reading because 100% I know it's about ammo failure to stop. To get it, you gotta bring it and 115gr 9mm just doesn't. 115gr 6.5mm rifle rounds, sure, but they're moving twice as fast.
 
The fact of the matter is that literally every round in existence has failed to stop someone, somewhere, at some point in time, and while folks continue to use each an every instance of such an occurrence as a means to backup their cartridge of choice, the simple truth is that the world is an imperfect place, things seldom turn out the way that we expect them to, even with the most careful of planning, and frankly until someone literally invents a handheld weapon which is capable of completely disintegrating the target at the cellular/attomic level, there will never be a guaranteed one-shot-stop.

Honestly, this is coming from someone who isn't a fan of 9mm Luger too, in fact I feel that it's overrated, but realistically speaking, any shot that falls to result in incapacitation with a 9mm would be equally as ineffective with a .45 because ultimately shot placement is the single most decisive factor in a gunfight.
Seriously, if a 9mm misses a vital organ, then realistically speaking, a .45 might graze it at best, which isn't realistically going to make a difference in overall effectiveness.

Do I share the sentiment that all cartridges are somehow magically equal in terms of performance because there's no significant visible difference in a block of gel with no bones? cCertainly not. Do I agree with the sentiment that 9mm is so close in performance to other duty cartridges that it makes no significant difference? I'm skeptical of that as well.
However, I have come to believe that ultimately Law Enforcement's decision to switch to 9mm Luger was a sound decision on the grounds that if you're going to outfit an equal opportunity workforce of officers with a single cartridge, then it's a good idea to pick one that virtually anyone can shoot effectively, costs less money, and will still be effective with proper shot placement.

9x19 Luger is an effective duty cartridge. Period. If you favor another cartridge and feel that it's more effective, then more power to you, carry is ultimately a personal choice, and there is no ideal one-size-fits-all cartridge for self-defense, and anyone who asserts otherwise in an arrogant fool. However, don't go cherry-picking cases in which a cartridge fails to stop someone as an example to back up your choice, especially not if an innocent was harmed/killed in the process, essentially using their hospital bed of coffin as a soapbox as a means to promote your cartridge of choice. Have the guts to carry what you want regardless of what others thing, because their feelings are irrelevant to your own personal choices and you shouldn't need their approval.

Personally, I've found that I love .40 S&W, a cartridge that folks by and large think isn't worth a darn, but I don't care, I just like it, and I carry it because I like it, the end. But guess what, 9mm works too, it can even work better for some. Sure, I wish that folks wouldn't be so obnoxiously insistent that it's a terrible cartridge which ever had a reason to exist, and whatever they carry is always better for everyone on Earth including myself, but that's life, some people are just insecure jerks who need to have all of their life decisions validated by appealing to authority and putting down anyone who doesn't follow the same line of reasoning. Don't be like them. If you like .357 SIG (or whatever) then like it because you like it, don't go putting everyone else down or seeking validation. Okay? Good talk, carry on.


Best reasoned assessment I’ve read relating to “caliber war” threads. I agree 100%…and I strongly dislike .40 S&W. [emoji1787]


$cott
 
Would not read too much into that video. We do not know if the shots were placed center-of-mass or around the edges.
Even a load of 12 gauge buckshot at a few feet fails to stop someone occasionally.


You brought up the subject of 12 gauge so will give my one and only 12 gauge vs deer story to keep things lively. Brother and I returned from duck hunting to find a small fawn mule deer in the ditch with broken back legs. Weighted maybe 75 pounds. The local game warden saw it also but was off duty. He stopped and said to hurry and finish it off. With a 12 gauge slug I walked to within a foot of the cripple, put the muzzle to the forehead and pulled the trigger. No reaction except blinking it eyes. Nothing but a 3/4" smoking hole in its head just below the brain. Had to shoot again. So much for the awesome knock down power of a 12 gauge.
 
I loved the story about Bella Twin. That was awesome. Some individuals today that will not be mentioned, for the possibility of being deleted from this thread, would have just tried to hit the bear with the rifle or just run away screaming. She had real guts. I have never thought about where I should try and shoot a bear with any kind of round other than the heart/lung area.

I believe that if it had been me, I would have needed a new pair of drawers.
 
Well I carry a 38. I might as well be a dead man walking. I wonder if anyone told the stakeout squad or all of the pre turn of the 18th century Patterson and Colt Navy .36 caliber users this? :D

Nope, because that was back in the day when you had to say stuff like that to someone's face in an environment in which one was liable to get shot talking to someone so condescendingly as that.

Thanks to the internet, even the most ignorant of cowards who've probably never shot anything the least bit threatening can make their voices heard in a risk free environment in which even the most mildly insulting retort results in disciplinary action.

So nowadays you'll see ignorant hicks arguing with veteran soldiers/police officers over caliber effectiveness, despite the fact that the extent of their experience on caliber effectiveness is; "Wheee doggy, that there .44 Magnum sure did blow up that tree rat real good!" or maybe a Doe they shot in a tree stand with a .30-06 using bait at best.
 
.45 is a lousy caliber. Here is actual documented proof.
A Skokie cop shot a bad guy 17 times with a .45; after the shooting he switched to a 9mm.

“There were 17 total hits on his body including three fatal shots to his head, a couple to his torso, and one to his abdomen," Gramins says. "Which means that even though Maddox was mortally wounded before the head shots, he was still able to engage me.

"People don't die the way we think they do," Gramins says. "I had 17 rounds in the guy. That will teach you how critical shot placement is."

Shots Fired: Skokie, Illinois 08/25/2008 - Patrol - POLICE Magazine
 
well thanks for the input guys! I think everyone brought up many valid points. One person noted here a pistol that begins with a 4 and a rifle that begins with a 3 is the only sure bet to end the right sooner.

I have read that 9mm +P and .45+P have performed very well. So my take on this is velocity does help. One ammo manufacturer often overlooked is "Underwood." for .45acp they have a 120gr that is 1400fps and that is near .357 Magnum velocity. I carry the Sig p320 using .357 underwoods 65gr that goes well over 2100fps.

I think for most 0mm gets the job done but if I had it my choice it would be th3e .45acp or the .357 sig
 
+P isnt necessary in any cartridge.

Case in point; Dallas, Texas PD. DPD started issuing 9mm in 1988. The first JHP was the Hornady XTP. There were failures. DPD moved to the then 9mm Tresury Load, a 115gr +P+ Remington JHP (green/white box). There were failures. The same kind as the standard pressure XTP. Bullets clogged with soft barrier material (clothing) and sailed through or bullets fragged in the target and didnt reach deep enough. DPD switched to the Winchester 147gr Ranger SXT, they got better, more reliable performance. They switched again to the follow up design, Winchester 147gr Ranger Talon. They had few problems, until Winchester QC started to decline, then switched to Hornady 135gr CD.

I carry Federal 147gr HST in my full sized 9mms, and Federal 147gr+P HST in my tiny guns. I dont carry the +P variant because its mo' deadly, I carry it because I believe a slightly faster slide velocity is needed in those tiny pistolas.
 
Always missing from these conversations is a female LEO's perspective, so here's one that I learned yesterday. My daughter is a state trooper. She has been out of work for a while now due to a wrist and hand injury sustained taking a dirt bag into custody. After surgical repairs, she is now in intensive strength training to regain use, flexibility and strength in the wrist. During this time, her agency switched from 40 S&W to 9 mm. The doctor managing her recovery told her that she can start shooting, but limited to 3 rounds. She came over with her new service weapon yesterday, and proceeded to roll the small ball target at 25 yards all 3 shots. She was elated at how much better she was able to manage the 9 mm. She did not enjoy shooting before, but she said she will definitively spend more time practicing with the 9 mm. For her, the 9 mm is an improvement in comfort and accuracy, and that makes me feel better. And as females continue to grow in agencies ranks, I would imagine that decision makers will pay less attention to old WWII films of 45's.

I know and have shot with a fairly small statured female friend who works for a fairly small department about 55 officers) where unfortunately the officer assigned the task of procuring a new duty weapon was an avid shooter who selected the Sig P226 in .357 Sig.

It’s just not something she - or frankly most of the other female officers and a fair percentage of the male officers - will ever shoot well.

It doesn’t fit her hand and the recoil is excessive.

The FBI more or less figured that out as well and reverted from the .40 S&W to the 9mm Luger. And the .40 S&W was itself adopted after the 10mm didn’t work out very well. Bigger isn’t always better, as agents and officers need to be able to both shoot the weapon accurately and control the weapon effectively.

It was an issue in the US military as well when they dropped the 1911 that had a grip that fit most people pretty well and adopted the M9, which was both large for a 9mm and had not only a double stack magazine but also housed it in a larger than necessary grip, and had a long trigger reach to boot. Troops could shoot it, but not many shot it well and it was poorly suited to anyone with other than large hands.
 
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I know and have shot with a fairly small statured female friend who works for a fairly small department about 55 officers) where unfortunately the officer assigned the task of procuring a new duty weapon was an avid shooter who selected the Sig P226 in .357 Sig.

It’s just not something she - or frankly most of the other female officers and a fair percentage of the male officers - will ever shoot well.

It doesn’t fit her hand and the recoil is excessive.

The FBI more or less figured that out as well and reverted from the .40 S&W to the 9mm Luger. And the .40 S&W was itself adopted after the 10mm didn’t work out very well. Bigger isn’t always better, as agents and officers need to be able to both shoot the weapon accurately and control the weapon effectively.

It was an issue in the US military as well when they dropped the 1911 that had a grip that fit most people pretty well and adopted the M9, which was both large for a 9mm and had not only a double stack magazine but also housed it in a larger than necessary grip, and had a long trigger reach to boot. Troops could shoot it, but not many shot it well and it was poorly suited to anyone with other than large hands.

Completely agree with the first point. As I mentioned in my post you will have a difficult time requiring a handgun that produces consistent and quick stops without a CNS hit. Something like a Deagle in .50AE, or perhaps a .454 Casull revolver, or just maybe a .500 S&W. Something like a 10mm will certainly be able to penetrate better than a 9mm or .40 (given the right bullets) and achieve results at greater ranges or with light cover/barrier to defeat, but it's no death ray.

Troops shot the M9 quite well vs. the 1911. The M9 was quite a bit more accurate than the old 1911s. This is not a knock on the 1911; these guns were 40+ years old by this time and weren't made to be particularly accurate in the first place. The DoD wanted a doublestack 9mm for a lot of reasons. They also wanted a simpler manual of arms and takedown procedures, both put the Beretta ahead. I got to shoot a lot of 9mm on Uncle Sugar's dime through the M9 and never had the itch to buy one (I have medium sized hands). The SIG and the Glock are frankly better, and I appreciate the 1911s quirks a lot more than the DoD ever did. The M17 is oddly slippery in the wrong spots (I put grip tape on the beavertail on mine) and I noticed a lot of fellow soldiers tend to shoot low due to the not-quite ergonomic grip angle.

You forget about the M11, the SIG P228 that was issued to some with smaller hands.
 
The 9mm is the world standard for too many reasons to go into here. It will remain so for the foreseeable future. My Beretta 92FS that I keep handy for HD is loaded with warm FMJ ammo. Reliable function, complete penetration from any angle, tumbling in soft tissue to create a larger than caliber wound channel, what’s not to like?
 
Let's be honest, every handgun is a compromise for portability. None have enough velocity to produce hydrostatic shock so it becomes very hard to produce rapid incapacitation unless you can hit the CNS and shut off the bad guys' motor functions. The old masters like Bill Jordan preached competency- the ability to draw fast and put rounds accurately on target while being under extreme stress- and that is as true today as it ever was. So it would seem that a plausible approach would be to carry the heaviest caliber one can competently manage and realize that any lethal encounter will also depend on "Old Blind Fortune" to a certain degree.
 
It really comes down to wether an individual can shoot something larger than 9mm Luger with suitable accuracy. Some can. Others can’t.

I'd guess I can. One time several years ago my brother and a friend of his were shooting at an improvised range and shooting at a coke bottle cap at 85 yds. They were shooting a .44mag Ruger Super Blackhawk. 24 rounds and neither hit the bottle cap nor from what I could see did they come close.

It took me a bit of time (maybe 30 sec) as I leveled my .45ACP 1911 but one shot sent the bottle cap flying into the brush. Did I get a square hit, did I hit on the edge of the cap, did I hit next to it which caused it to fly away? I don't know because I never found it after looking for several minutes. What I do know is given the time, you're not safe from a shot from me at that distance. Mind you the bottle cap was not shooting back and I really can't swear that I'd have the same level of accuracy if you were.

One shot, one bottle cap! I quit shooting for the day, didn't have anything else to prove.
 
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The 9mm is the world standard for too many reasons to go into here. It will remain so for the foreseeable future. My Beretta 92FS that I keep handy for HD is loaded with warm FMJ ammo. Reliable function, complete penetration from any angle, tumbling in soft tissue to create a larger than caliber wound channel, what’s not to like?
The NMSP armorer told me and a deputy chief confirmed they went 9mm because of ammo cost and training time. Period.
 
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