I shot 2 animals with the 45 ACP. A doe antelope was found with a rear foot shot off. I used Winchester 185 grain Silvertip hollow point ammo to hunt her down. I shot her 9 times to get the job done. The last shot was a mere feet away. A bullet to the neck and she lay down and died. There was virtually zero reaction to every shot. This was maybe a 100# animal. I recovered 6 of the bullets and all expanded well and were in the lung, neck area. Also shot a 28# javalina using hot loaded 200 grain Speer hollow point bullets. At 10 yards a single lung shot caused him to run into the brush, only to return and take a second hit down the throat. Off he ran into the brush and was found @ 50 yards away. And yet I still sleep with a 45 ACP in a holster that is screwed to my bed post, for 40 plus years.
Police shooting 9mm failed to stop bad guy
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RIP Chicago Police Officer Ella French who was killed last week. Shot one time with a .22LR from a Glock Model 44 illegally purchased in Indiana by a straw purchaser. Her partner, shot 3 times by the same .22 is in critical condition. He lost an eye and has a bullet in his brain. Take from this what you wish.
And I shot a dehydrated fawn (after Game & Fish approved it via radio) hung in an urban fence with my issue 5906 5 times using issue Hydr-Shok 147 JHP and she just kept kicking and bleating. I tired of torturing the poor animal and dispatched her with one 12 gauge round.
I'd easily killed a few injured sheep, cows, and deer at accident scenes with issue 357 magnum 125 grain JHP all with one shot each.
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I shot 3 mule deer doe's with a 357 and 158 grain Remington hollow points. None died rapidly but all were lung shots. I did kill a large buck antelope using the same load and shot placement. He died after a 50 yard death run similar to a rifle shot antelope. In my youth when not much oxygen entered my brain, I did crawl into a bear den with a 357 and used it to dispatch a wounded black bear. Cant recall much about the reaction of the bear as it was DARK in there and when the muzzle of the gun touched bear fur I fired 5 rapid shot, leaving one to use on myself I guess.
bushmaster1313
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From reading self defense articles and posts I understand two things.
1) A shooter can sometimes be shot through the heart and still remain standing and shooting for 10 seconds.
2) To be sure of downing a shooter you need to disrupt the central nervous system, i.e. brain or spinal cord.
1) A shooter can sometimes be shot through the heart and still remain standing and shooting for 10 seconds.
2) To be sure of downing a shooter you need to disrupt the central nervous system, i.e. brain or spinal cord.
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sipowicz
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I was just about to buy a duty holster for my Beretta Jetfire but all these comments got me thinking…..
Why is shot placement important for LE/MIL but not for civilian shooters? Do the human body's life support and control systems function differently when the person shooting them is wearing a uniform vs normal clothes?
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Just because 9mm got better (they say it has), one should not assume that .45 (or .357, or .40) got worse.
Jim Cirillo , a famous member of the NYPD stakeout unit, was involved in
252 gunfights and personally put down 19 bad guys. He said he only saw
2 one-shot-stops, and he said both of those were shots to the brain. He
said even accurate heart shots were not instant stoppers.
Chicago police sergeant Bob Stasch, a veteran of 14 gunfights said he had
only experienced 1 one-shot-stop. In one incident his partner was attacked
by a perp with a butcher knife. They pumped six .45 Colt rounds into him,
but he didn't go down. Five more hits with a .38 sp. with lead hollow points.
He still didn't go down. Four more shots with .44 magnum Winchester silver tips.
The 4th shot finally put the perp down.
That's why I have slightly modified the Mozambique drill. Instead of 2
too the center of mass and one two the head, I practice 2 to the head
and the third to center of mass.
252 gunfights and personally put down 19 bad guys. He said he only saw
2 one-shot-stops, and he said both of those were shots to the brain. He
said even accurate heart shots were not instant stoppers.
Chicago police sergeant Bob Stasch, a veteran of 14 gunfights said he had
only experienced 1 one-shot-stop. In one incident his partner was attacked
by a perp with a butcher knife. They pumped six .45 Colt rounds into him,
but he didn't go down. Five more hits with a .38 sp. with lead hollow points.
He still didn't go down. Four more shots with .44 magnum Winchester silver tips.
The 4th shot finally put the perp down.
That's why I have slightly modified the Mozambique drill. Instead of 2
too the center of mass and one two the head, I practice 2 to the head
and the third to center of mass.
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cmj8591
Member
What should be taken from this is that a hit to the CNS from the 22lr will always beat a miss from a 500 Mag. I think what this discussion is dancing around is comparing A to B under different circumstances when we should be talking about how they work under the same conditions. ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, the bigger the hole and the more energy that can be transferred to the target, the faster it will be incapacitated. A 22lr will never equal a 9mm which will never equal a 45 which will never equal a 12ga slug. And none of them will equal a hit to the CNS. The laws of physics are the only laws that can't be broken. At least in this universe.
4506517
Member
I carry Glock 17 loaded with Speer G2 Gold Dots.
I feel as though I am well armed.
I feel as though I am well armed.
This could be settled once and for all. We now have hundreds of videos of police shootings. All that is missing from most of them is the caliber and the specific load used. If law enforcement wanted to do a real study, all they would have to do is gather that missing information and the autopsy reports and then watch what actually happened in the videos. Their findings would be a lot more credible than a 100 year plus old test on bulls, anecdotes and various unscientific formulas.
Civilian defensive shootings tend to be very short range, where 'shot placement' isn't an option. Center mass or hips are only choices.
LE/MIL, in the discharge of their duties, take longer shots. Longer shots enable aiming.
Civilians have no duty to apprehend. They generally shoot only as a last resort.
My point exactly. Thanks.
Be careful with even these points. Brain shots are also dependent on hit location, penetration, and bullet direction. HCSO Deputy Ali Salinas was shot in the right forehead with a 9mm 115 grain Federal JHP and was knocked down, but survived a long wait to get medical help and is 95% today. Frontal lobe hits may not kill, nor even completely incapacitate.
And I apologize; there may be similar experiences out there with 40s, 45s, 357 SIGs, etc., but I'm truly not aware of any.
cmj8591
Member
Google Marshall and Sanow
Think we'll see the plasma guns on the surplus market eventually?
I have absolutely no idea where you came up with this idea. Most shootings in general, LE or not, are close in. Being close doesn't mean you can't choose to put your shot in a good place, and indeed can make the shot easier.
If you've decided that being close to a target means you are unable to attempt effective hits in vital areas, you should probably spend a little more time at the range. Nobody is saying that taking a slightly imperfect shot at the center mass will do nothing, but it is absolutely not hard to teach yourself to focus on the a-zone. You're going to be aiming somewhere, why not try to make it somewhere that counts?
If you've decided that they don't matter and just dumping into the shape of your assailant is the best bet, I'd disagree but don't have much more beyond that.
When I was in middle school we had a guy a few years ahead who was involved in the early Iraq war. Dude took a 7.62x39 round through his helmet, through his brain, and out into the other side of the helmet (somehow got trapped in the kevlar between some layers on another side of the helmet). He described realizing something was wrong, raising his rifle to find the threat, then blacking out within around ten seconds. When I saw him after his return he was in remarkably good shape, definitely had some temper issues that weren't there before, but otherwise fine and functional. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don't and there's not a good way to account for that.
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