Model 13 Forcing Cone?

[Ardeebee]

Did the Model 13 (K frame fixed sight .357 Magnum) experience cracked forcing cones like the Model 19? When did S&W eliminate the flat spot on the bottom of the forcing cone?

Asking for a friend. Honest. I have never owned or handled a Model 13, but he is interested in one.

Thanks for your information.

 

[Hondo44]

They have been known to crack with a lot of magnum rounds, but not nearly as often as one might think from reading about it. And S&W will fix it if it happens.

The flat spot was eliminated on the L frames. If he's so concerned he should shop for an L frame. Personally I would not worry about it.

If he's interested in it, he should inspect it carefully under magnification and avoid one with a very high round count. Have a gunsmith inspect for that if he's not familiar.

 

[JP@AK]

Did the Model 13 (K frame fixed sight .357 Magnum) experience cracked forcing cones like the Model 19? When did S&W eliminate the flat spot on the bottom of the forcing cone?

Interesting question.

First, you are talking about the Model 13-1, not the Model 13, which is an entirely different gun.

On to the question asked:

I own two Model 10-6 .357 Magnum revolvers, which were the immediate predecessor to the Model 13-1. I just checked, and both have the flattened steel at the breech end of the barrel that you misnamed the "forcing cone." I rather suspect this continued on the Model 13-1, but I've never owned one of those so I cannot say with any certainty, but logic dictates that yoke/cylinder clearance issues would require the same configuration.

I've never heard or read anything suggesting the same problem with the 10-6/13-1 as have been reported with the Model 19. Maybe it is out there, but I'm not aware of it.

Edit: Jim posted while I was checking my safe-dwellers. His reference to the 1980 introduction of the L frames would confirm my suspicions, noted above. K frame dimensions dictated the trimmed breach of the barrel.

 

[gmborkovic]

Where are these gunsmiths that inspect guns and deem them safe to shoot?

 

[Hondo44]

They may be few and far between these days. But most old smiths know something about revolvers. And there are revolver specialists even today.

A true revolver smith looks for wear like an oblong center pin locking hole in the breech face, worn extractor teeth (poor 'carry up'), cyl end play, etc.

 

[mscampbell2734]

First the very end of a REVOLVER barrel is called the "forcing cone". It's called that because it is coned shaped and helps to force the bullet into the barrel if the cylinder is very slightly misaligned.

The L frame was introduced in part because of the few and far between issues with forcing cone cracks but in the K frame the issue was eliminated with the introduction of the two piece barrel in the new 66 series.

Short story is it happens but not nearly as much as the internet would have you believe.

 

[JP@AK]

First the very end of a REVOLVER barrel is called the "forcing cone".

Actually, no it isn't.

The more-or-less V shaped taper on the inside of the barrel at the breech end is the forcing cone. The barrel is still the barrel, and the part that is flattened on the .357 Magnum K frames is on the external circumference of the barrel. The cone is the same shape and dimensions on a .357 as it is on a .38 K frame. The thickness of the barrel between the forcing cone and the exterior surface of the barrel is thinned by the flat spot, not the cone itself.

It is worth noting that early hand ejectors did not have forcing cones. I forget the exact year, but I believe it was in the 19-teens that S&W added the feature.

 

[steelslaver]

Actually the very end of the barrel is NOT the forcing cone. It is the barrel shank. The forcing cone is the short tapered section on the inside of the barrel shank. The flat is on the bottom of the barrel shank where it protrudes into the frame window.

 

[LPD256]

In answer to your question I believe vintage K frames had pretty much the same forcing cones no matter the caliber. So results of shooting magnum loads with small bullets should be relatively similar. If your buddy wants to shoot those, have them buy a 28. Or an L frame.

 

[Hondo44]

• Forcing cones on HE barrels did not exist until the engineering order of August 14, 1922 mandated the forcing cone for HE's. In this period they do still have the black powder fouling cup on the underside of the top strap above the bar/cyl gap.

 

[JP@AK]

Thanks, Jim. A little later than I remembered, but I knew there was a long period without them. Do you happen to know the number of the change order? It's probably in Roy's book.

 

[WR Moore]

• Forcing cones on HE barrels did not exist until the engineering order of August 14, 1922 mandated the forcing cone for HE's. In this period they do still have the black powder fouling cup on the underside of the top strap above the bar/cyl gap.

AH-HA! Finally got an explanation for the divot in the top strap. Thanks.

 

[kbm6893]

Model 19's and 13's all had the same flat spot on the forcing cone. All K frame Magnum's did, until the new Model 66 came along. That was totally redesigned and does not have it.

Matter of fact, the NY State Police went away from the 10-6 in .357 because it wasn't up to the task of firing .357 exclusively in the guns. Even the 3" Model 13 the FBI carried was usually not loaded with .357. At least according to my friend who is a retired FBI agent. He told me guys who wanted to carry .357 had to get permission from the supervisor. It was always given, he said. But most guys didn't ask. I believe at least a few of the agents involved in the Miami shootout were using .38's in their .357 revolvers.

All I know is I have been told by S&W, both in writing and over the phone, to minimize use of .357 in a K frame magnum, and even then to only use 158 grain. They can no longer fix them. No more barrels.

 

[Hondo44]

Thanks, Jim. A little later than I remembered, but I knew there was a long period without them. Do you happen to know the number of the change order? It's probably in Roy's book.

Unfortunately, my source, S&W 1857-1945 by Neal and Jinks does not list the change order #s.

 

[Hapworth]

First the very end of a REVOLVER barrel is called the "forcing cone"...

The forcing cone is just the little bit of concentric beveling at the edge of the bore opening; the very end of a revolver barrel is called the "barrel face".

 

[Ardeebee]

Why am I reminded of a Monty Python skit?

"I'm here for an argument."

"Ah! Arguments are two doors down. This is abuse!"

My question is answered and I thank you all.

 

[Smolt Smython]

This history of the L Frame (link below) goes into great detail about the K Frame forcing cone failure issue that spurred the creation of the L Frame. Avoid 110/125 grain .357 loads and you shouldn't have any problems. Other articles I have read go so far as to say that with modern powders those loads are now safe in K Frames and you only need to avoid "vintage" light bullet loads with old school powders in K Frames. Myself...? I have no idea, I should be so lucky to shoot enough .357 Magnum to ruin a gun.....maybe some day I will be able to do that....

The Smith & Wesson L-Frame Story - RevolverGuy.Com

 

[JP@AK]

"I'm here for an argument."

"Ah! Arguments are two doors down. This is abuse!"

Cute. But not really applicable. Here's why:

If you stick around a while, you will discover that we are one big happy family. None of us knows everything, although there are a few guys here who know close to everything (and I'm not one of them). But some of us have been in this game for half a century or more, so we've collectively accumulated a lot of info. We share what we know, correct one another and all learn together. It's a wonderful experience. Rarely does anyone get his back up about being corrected. Rather, we consider it a learning experience and keep coming back for more.

This forum is a great place. We hope you'll be with us for a while.

 

[pantannojack]

How could I be missing the flat spot on this bbl stud, 19-2, K6829xx? I did not notice until someone here pointed it out. When closed I see light between the yoke /cylinder drum and the bbl stud.

 

[stansdds]

How could I be missing the flat spot on this bbl stud, 19-2, K6829xx? I did not notice until someone here pointed it out. When closed I see light between the yoke /cylinder drum and the bbl stud.

The flat spot on the barrel shank in the K-frame revolvers was not a particularly large flat until 1977, when S&W moved the gas ring from the yoke to the cylinder. This would be the Model 19-4. The move necessitated a larger flat on the barrel extension.