A little Texas historical story - A. W. Brill Holsters

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Neale, I answered your responses above, and in the pictures you posted, I see no way to determine which type of Brill holster is being worn by the gentleman. Even the one with the blow up doesn't help me, maybe Red could tell the difference.
Larry

I'm having to deduce that you're speaking of the images of Hamer and Hudson from Stan Nelson's article. His is an excellent introduction to the field of study but the holsters shown on Hamer and Hudson are not of the Brill style, but of the King Ranch style. We also have pics of Hamer's holster and they show that Nelson was mistaken. Doc White also wore this holster and he is photographed with it in 1906, 1935, and 1950.

The image of Ranger Kiowa Jones absolutely IS a Brill and by Kluge; and we know this by recognizing its styling and knowing that Jones was a suicide in 1928 (with the rifle he is holding) so not a Brill by Rabensburg. The image also tells us that Jones was left-handed: the image is not 'flopped' (shirt, trousers, rifle action) so the holster is a leftie moved 'round to the right side and the pistol turned in it for the benefit of the photographer; very common practice in those times. I have a gigantic image from the Texas Rangers museum (and it is in Holstory the First Edition so you would've wanted to refer to it there for confirmation already) that is so good that we can see why Kiowa was called 'the ugliest man in TX': cysts all over his face:

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I'm having to deduce that you're speaking of the images of Hamer and Hudson from Stan Nelson's article. His is an excellent introduction to the field of study but the holsters shown on Hamer and Hudson are not of the Brill style, but of the King Ranch style. We also have pics of Hamer's holster and they show that Nelson was mistaken. Doc White also wore this holster and he is photographed with it in 1906, 1935, and 1950.

The image of Ranger Kiowa Jones absolutely IS a Brill and by Kluge; and we know this by recognizing its styling and knowing that Jones was a suicide in 1928 (with the rifle he is holding) so not a Brill by Rabensburg. The image also tells us that Jones was left-handed: the image is not 'flopped' (shirt, trousers, rifle action) so the holster is a leftie moved 'round to the right side and the pistol turned in it for the benefit of the photographer; very common practice in those times. I have a gigantic image from the Texas Rangers museum (and it is in Holstory the First Edition so you would've wanted to refer to it there for confirmation already) that is so good that we can see why Kiowa was called 'the ugliest man in TX': cysts all over his face:

View attachment 576534

Thanks, Red. I could hardly see the holsters, much less the detail that would be required for ME to identify them, but I thought if it could be done, you would be the one to do it, like I said. That is why you are THE holster expert. I'll have to check out the gigantic picture in Holstory. In the "blow up" that Neale provided, Jones's holster did look the most like a Brill, but I still couldn't see enough detail to tell definitively. When I first looked at Neale's smaller black and white picture of Jone's holster, I was thinking that the revolver fit was terrible, but then I realized that the gun was pulled out and turned to see it better. Also, when you blow up the color picture, you can see Jones's belt. It looks very thin, which makes sense, but it looks very, very flimsy too. That is surprising to me.
Larry
 

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Texas Ranger Kiowa Jones Touts His Gun Hardware and Leather Carry Gear

The attached 1910 image is of Texas Ranger Kiowa Jones touting his gun hardware and leather gear apparel. Detail of his leather gun holster is emphasized.

If this is a King Ranch holster, then is a twin to a "Brill" type holster of the early period by Rabensburg or Kluge.

This is a left hand holster worn on Kiowa Jones' right hip/leg. The holster is facing to the rear. The welt edge is in view along with the face of the holster with its basket weave pattern and its very curvilinear cuff (a Rabensburg trademark) with no maker mark visible. The welt stack, in my opinion, needs another welt or two, which will become another trademark for Rabensburg during his enlightenment period.

Gun collector and historian Stan Nelson says Kiowa Jones is wearing a Rabensburg holster. No Charles W. Kluge is mentioned in the article published in January 2008 based on a personal interview during the early 1950s or about seventy (70) years ago with people (one being a very honest Newton Joseph Rabensburg), who would be closer to the real story than those, who are making historical statements today based upon:

1. Supposition.

2. A 1944 obituary on Charles W. Kluge authored by a family member, who was obviously not censored on embellishments.

3. A rejection of N J Rabensburg based on age and not technical prowess and artistic talent.

Also, censorship was not a factor with the obituary for Arno W. Brill, who died in Houston in 1968. The Brill family also wanted a piece of the holster pie when it said, "the firm developed the Brill holster, worn by many Texas peace officers".

It would be impossible for me to come "on-board" with this reversal of the historical record because I would be calling my grandfather, N J Rabensburg, a liar. Since I know he was beyond reproach and a man of his word, who expected the same from his fellow associates and friends.

These virtues with honesty at the top of the list were instilled in my Dad and his brothers. What was said seventy (70) years ago still holds true for me today, and I am sure for scores of the followers of Stan Nelson, whom I understand died only two years ago at the age of ninety-six (96) and had been a marine and an avid gun collector and historian.

I would like to be on-board for this recent twist of history, but will have to say no to supposition, a 1944 obituary and a rejection of ability due to a youthful age. Newton Joseph Rabensburg was a gifted seventeen (17) year old, and probably a prodigy in leather making. His father was a saddler with tools available to his son at birth.

When N J Rabensburg met with Captain Hughes during his tenure in Austin, he, also, may have had the attention of others due to his prowess in leather making. Rejection due to age is condescending since the world has had a host of youthful prodigies to boast.

Submitted by Neale Rabensburg
 

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The attached 1910 image is of Texas Ranger Kiowa Jones touting his gun hardware and leather gear apparel. Detail of his leather gun holster is emphasized.

If this is a King Ranch holster, then is a twin to a "Brill" type holster of the early period by Rabensburg or Kluge.

Neale, you are mixing up information. Red said:

"I'm having to deduce that you're speaking of the images of Hamer and Hudson from Stan Nelson's article. His is an excellent introduction to the field of study but the holsters shown on Hamer and Hudson are not of the Brill style, but of the King Ranch style. We also have pics of Hamer's holster and they show that Nelson was mistaken. Doc White also wore this holster and he is photographed with it in 1906, 1935, and 1950.

The image of Ranger Kiowa Jones absolutely IS a Brill and by Kluge; and we know this by recognizing its styling and knowing that Jones was a suicide in 1928 (with the rifle he is holding) so not a Brill by Rabensburg"


This is a left hand holster worn on Kiowa Jones' right hip/leg. The holster is facing to the rear. The welt edge is in view along with the face of the holster with its basket weave pattern and its very curvilinear cuff (a Rabensburg trademark) with no maker mark visible. The welt stack, in my opinion, needs another welt or two, which will become another trademark for Rabensburg during his enlightenment period.

You are right, the welt edge is in view, and it would need another welt or two to be a Rabensburg holster, without it though, it is a Kluge holster. I surely don't see "it's very curvilinear cuff" because I can only see half of it. Plus, I thought a curvaceous WELT STACK was the Rabensburg trademark.

Gun collector and historian Stan Nelson says Kiowa Jones is wearing a Rabensburg holster. No Charles W. Kluge is mentioned in the article published in January 2008 based on a personal interview during the early 1950s or about seventy (70) years ago with people (one being a very honest Newton Joseph Rabensburg), who would be closer to the real story than those, who are making historical statements today based upon:

I am guessing that Nelson didn't have a Kluge holster to compare it to.

1. Supposition.

Supposition is all through your posts here too. I mean anytime you use words like perhaps, may have, in my opinion, I would consider, I speculated, I would guess, you using supposition.

What would you call this?

"The "expert leatherworker" in the article is rather a contingent of early Brill-a-likes, who were selling their unmarked holsters and belts through a central clearing house, which was the A W Brill Company of Austin. Captain Hughes may have seeded the crop, but it was the A W Brill Company of Austin that reaped the rewards and sold many early Brill-a-likes made outside the Company."

I call that supposition.


2. A 1944 obituary on Charles W. Kluge authored by a family member, who was obviously not censored on embellishments.

Who knows who wrote the obit.

3. A rejection of N J Rabensburg based on age and not technical prowess and artistic talent.

Also, censorship was not a factor with the obituary for Arno W. Brill, who died in Houston in 1968. The Brill family also wanted a piece of the holster pie when it said, "the firm developed the Brill holster, worn by many Texas peace officers".

It would be impossible for me to come "on-board" with this reversal of the historical record because I would be calling my grandfather, N J Rabensburg, a liar. Since I know he was beyond reproach and a man of his word, who expected the same from his fellow associates and friends.

I would never call your grandfather a liar.

These virtues with honesty at the top of the list were instilled in my Dad and his brothers. What was said seventy (70) years ago still holds true for me today, and I am sure for scores of the followers of Stan Nelson, whom I understand died only two years ago at the age of ninety-six (96) and had been a marine and an avid gun collector and historian.

I feel their were a few inconsistencies in his article.

I would like to be on-board for this recent twist of history, but will have to say no to supposition, a 1944 obituary and a rejection of ability due to a youthful age. Newton Joseph Rabensburg was a gifted seventeen (17) year old, and probably a prodigy in leather making. His father was a saddler with tools available to his son at birth.

More supposition.

When N J Rabensburg met with Captain Hughes during his tenure in Austin, he, also, may have had the attention of others due to his prowess in leather making. Rejection due to age is condescending since the world has had a host of youthful prodigies to boast.

NJ Rabensburg was an excellent holster maker. After 1932, he made great improvements to a holster which we know as the "advanced Brill holster". It is a fantastic holster, and his use of multi welts is very technological. But, he didn't make every Brill and pre Brill holster ever made.

Submitted by Neale Rabensburg

There is supposition everywhere. There are also facts, see post #132.
Larry
 
To me, these discussions we have had on one of our favorite holsters have been very interesting, sometimes contentious, and thought provoking. They have also been extremely fluid in nature. Just going back 5 years, so much has been learned mostly from the extensive research done by Red and Neale, but also a few others.

Red's contribution, as a holster designer, consultant, and historian, has been invaluable. Few, if any, can look at a holster the way he does, and mentally break it down to it's smallest components, and see the minute details involved in the design knowing how they work together. And, as we all know, you have to break these holsters down and see their details to determine their history. This may be more so with Brill holsters than any other. Neale's contribution has been priceless too. With him having the direct family connection to NJ Rabensburg, we have been privy to information that no one else could bring to the table. His passion on the subject is evident in all his posts, because he is wanting to make sure his grandfather has his proper place in history. He has been able to bring first hand experience, family history, and memories to this discussion like nobody else could.

We have all learned that Brill holsters have quite a history, and much of it doesn't involve the direct Brill family. It is very captivating because of some of the folks involved in this history. I mean, who here doesn't like learning about the Texas Rangers? Brill's history is intertwined with Texas Ranger history. A Governor of Texas is also part of their history. Another big event that had a large effect on Brill history was the advent of the automobile. Many Saddlery companies had to change direction or fade into extinction. Saddle making transitioned into holster and other leather goods.

This brought other players and places into Brill history. New Mexico, La Grange, Texas, Utah, and a few other places had parts in the history, but ultimately Austin, Texas was THE place. One of Kluge Brothers Saddlery's owners, Charlie Kluge enters here. As the maker of some of the best saddles in the country, and with the advent of the automobile, he had to depend more on another product.....holsters. His early Brill-a-like holster was well made, is pretty easily identifiable,and just what the Rangers needed. Other makers, and there were many, joined in with their version.

The Brill holster finally makes it's appearance when the A. W. Brill Company was started by August Brill in 1912 when he purchased the Kluge Brothers Saddlery. To me, the draw to buy this company was their customer base and the holster that Charlie Kluge was making. The Brill family were good at marketing their products and salesmen, but not holster designers or makers.

During 1932, the history of Brill took another dramatic turn. Charlie Kluge would be turning 70 years old, and the country had been in a Depression since 1929. New blood and ideas were needed. A brilliant talented holster maker, NJ Rabensburg was the answer at first as an employee, then as new owner of AW Brill in 1935. His innovation new advanced design of the Brill holster was the answer. He changed the shape to be more curvaceous, added a stitch or two at the mouth of the holster to strengthen it, changed the stitching pattern of the cuff to the back of the holster, but more importantly, he added multiple welts to the holster. His ingenious fresh layered welt stack was revolutionary. He made Brill holsters both until his retirement in 1955, and after, until his death in 1961. This is the Brill holster that we are most familiar with, and love, today.
Larry
 
Minnesota Weapons Collectors Association Official Publication, January 2008

Attached please find the first five (5) pages of the Minnesota Weapons Collectors Association Official Publication, Volume 22, Issue No. 1 dated January 2008. This is a twenty (20) page document including cover. Fifteen (15) more pages will follow.

Please note that Stan Nelson is one of the publishers/staff members for this association. There were four (4) issues for the year 2008 comprising Volume 22, which means 2008 appears to be its twenty-second (22nd) year of operation.

Stan Nelson has his own article within this same publication concerning his visit to Texas in the early 1950s. The article on pages 10-14 is titled "Some Thoughts on Gun Leather". Mr. Nelson's brother accompanied him on this sojourn. Stan Nelson was in his early thirties (30s).

Submitted by Neale Rabensburg
 

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Minnesota Weapons Collectors Association Jan 2008 (continued) Pages 6-10

Please see attached pages 6-10. Stan Nelson starts his article on gun leather on page 10.

Submitted by Neale Rabensburg
 

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Minnesota Weapons Collectors Association Jan 2008 (continued) Pages 11-15

Pages 11-15 of the Minnesota Weapons Collectors Association, Volume 22, Issue No. 1 dated January 2008 is attached. A meeting and interview by Stan Nelson with N J Rabensburg is featured in the last few pages of the Nelson article ending on page 14. Please read.

Submitted by Neale Rabensburg
 

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Minnesota Weapons Collectors Association Jan 2008 (continued) Pages 16-20

Attached are the last five pages of Issue No.1, Volume 22 dated January 2008.

Submitted by Neale Rabensburg
 

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Minnesota Weapons Collectors Association Detail Photos of TX Rangers Jones & Hamer

Pages 11-15 of the Minnesota Weapons Collectors Association, Volume 22, Issue No. 1 dated January 2008 is attached. A meeting and interview by Stan Nelson with N J Rabensburg is featured in the last few pages of the Nelson article ending on page 14. Please read.

Submitted by Neale Rabensburg

Please find the enlarged and detail photos with captions by Stan Nelson from the Minnesota Weapons Collectors Publication, Volume 22, Issue No.1 dated January 2008.

The photos are of Texas Rangers Kiowa Jones in 1910 and Frank Hamer in December 1906, Del Rio, Texas. Both men are sporting Rabensburg holsters based on Nelson's interview with N J Rabensburg about seventy (70) years ago.

Submitted by Neale Rabensburg
 

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No one is even implying that N.J. was a liar :-).

Always remember that it was I who found the Nelson article in the first place, and I corresponded with him briefly and it is from that correspondence that we have images of Nelson's own Sunday scabbards by N.J.; and it is from that I was able to identify that there was a group of Brills made one way, and another group of Brills made another way.

The difficulty is not at all with N.J. It is with Nelson's telling of the tale. My analysis of his article, carefully parsing each word as to what he said and what we think he said, is that the dates demonstrate that N.J. absolutely could have been there for Hughes.

Don't misconstrue my comments, and you are. In those times N.J. was required by the guild to work only as an apprentice; and he could not work as a saddler until he became a journeyman. So if anyone says he was 'too young' it was the guilds, not me.

I myself was a child prodigy at gunleather and began at 16 when I discovered Chic Gaylord's 1960 book in 1966 at the Oakland main library shortly after my family had returned me from London to there. Nothing about my comments about age c/b condescending to the youngies, I was one once, too. 50 gunleather patents later, I've paid my dues.

The difficulty I'm having, is with LaGrange Saddlery. It appears for the very first time in January 1904, having been formed by the purchase of Lange Saddlery, in a notice in the LaGrange Journal. N.J. then appears at the saddlery in 1909 in an article shortly before his departure from there is announced late that year. Other mentions of N.J. in the Journal don't place him there in that time period 1905 to 1907.

So, in the way that Nelson chose to retell N.J.'s story, Hughes came into an unnamed saddlery where N.J. was working. The date is vague because Nelson chose to use the title of the city directory where he confirmed that in Austin around the correct time period, Hughes was 'there'. The directory is titled "1906/1907" and copyrighted 'January 1907'. Trouble is, Hughes was only in Austin from mid 1905 until mid 1907. When I put my original story together for Holstory the First Edition I had only that info from Nelson so I found myself forcing the holster's invention into early 1907.

Now I realize with more info that Hughes was sent with his company of 5 or so Rangers to 'clean up Austin' because it was/is the capitol city of Texas. Now, we KNOW from newspaper accounts when he arrived, and when he left. It is Nelson who states the scabbard came from the need to conceal the Rangers' weapons. And it seems to me that Hughes would have hit the ground running and had his scabbard created IMMEDIATELY so he could accomplish his mission and leave.

Where it all gets wobbly is with Hughes and his company in Austin's central business district, AND ON FOOT PATROL, why has he removed himself to LaGrange that is 85 or so miles to the East, when there are two prominent saddleries within 1/2 mile -- walking distance -- of the Capitol buildings: W.T. Wroe, and Kluge Bros. And August Brill is working at Wroe, and Charles Kluge is working at Kluge Bros. So, what was the attraction for Hughes to leave his men (but take White with him for his King Ranch holster) to visit LaGrange Saddlery for his scabbard redesign, when he was supposed to be guarding the big city, so to speak?

So, Neale, from your connection of the Rabensburgs and Kluges of Bastrop, it occurs to me that N.J., an apprentice, certainly could have served his apprenticeship at Kluge Bros. Then having 'graduated' (I have a reference that says that in 1912, for example, 'no man can get a job at a saddlery without his apprenticeship papers' which was 3-4 years) N.J. went to LaGrange. But having created what would become the Brill, why then did he practically run away first to Houston, then to Utah?

Nelson's paragraph is very loosely constructed and this has always given me pause. For example, was 'employed' really the right word for N.J.? He was too young to be anything but an apprentice, which normally started at 15 in those times and he turned 15 in late 1904. Apprentices were not employees, they were serving a sort of voluntary servitude; they weren't paid and they couldn't leave (!) until they 'graduated' under the terms of their contracts. And couldn't be employed by another without their papers from completing their apprenticeships.

So I don't doubt what N.J. told Stan Nelson. What we don't know, because there is only Nelson's tale and he died two years ago, are N.J.'s own words. I'd've expected that N.J. would have treasured his apprenticeship papers, and he surely was promoted from journeyman to master so preserved those papers, too. My f-i-l had the originals of every paper ever issued to him during WWII by the American Army, at his death 80 full years later; and we still have them all plus copies.

All good. In the second edition Witty and I have taken no exception to the original tale of Rabensburg and the Brill; but added that two men have claimed to be its inventor; Charles Kluge and Newton Rabensburg. Both are plausible :-).
 
I was trained as a historian many moons ago. I have a Ph.D. in history. One of things one realizes in studying the past is eyewitness accounts differ, even if contemporaneous to the events being studied. It is usually not a matter of dishonesty. Does not have to be a particular axe to grind (though it can be). People don't always perceive things the same way. And as time passes, memories... what? ... well, refine themselves in our minds into our own versions of past events.

I've noticed this within my own family when comparing notes with my siblings of events in our childhoods. Every now and then something I have remembered in a certain way for over half a century is proven clearly incorrect.

An historian does his best to piece together the truth of events past, but absolute certainty is pretty unusual.
 
Red, it is hard for me to compete on the Smith and Wesson Forum. I am an outsider with no technical skills with holster making but do have a keen, discerning eye based on my training as an architect with the State of Texas emeritus status retired.

I am also an amateur historian for Fayette County, Texas and serve and lecture on a regular basis with historical matters both locally and outside the County. I am not a complacent person, and it is hard for me to remain a bystander on subjects where I have an interest.

I do apologize for stepping on your toes and others, who have been your loyal followers for so many years. You have been their leader and mine.

I would not be having this current difference of opinion with you and others had it not been for our contact back in 2018 when I joined the SW Forum. You brought me in and thank you.

Last week, when I learned of a change of direction with regards to the Stan Nelson article of 2008, which you introduced to me in 2018 and was placed on display during the Zwiener and Rabensburg Saddlery exhibit held at the Fayette Heritage Museum and Archives in La Grange, I was stunned.

After making my initial responses known and receiving a host of replies, I paused and decided it was time for me to step aside and let this thread go. However, I decided to make one last effort with a readable picture, which may speak a thousand words.

There have been discussions in the past about the Stan Nelson article, and I myself received a copy from Red in the beginning. However, I was not sure the members on this thread or others within the Forum have ever seen a true copy, so I decided to produce a readable version.

Speakers, who lecture with only words, can put their audience to sleep, but an accompanying picture display will likely hold their interest to the end. I, therefore, produced a readable copy of the Minnesota Weapons Collectors Association, Volume 22, Issue No. 1, dated January 2008, which included the Stan Nelson article titled "Some Thoughts on Gun Leather".

Submitted by Neale Rabensburg
 
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Neale, don't give up so easily. I think that the only sticking point is LaGrange Saddlery for Hughes and I'm thinking that it was you who inserted them into the mix? And you resolved that by making the family connection between the Rabensburgs and the Kluges. And Kluge was in Austin right near Hughes. Nelson only states 'a saddlery'.

If it had been Bianchi, for example, in my early years there, and Charles Askins came in asking for a holster, I'd have been asked by the boss to work on the project with him and Charlie. JB didn't make any of this stuff himself! He had a business to run.

Same with N.J. I think the most plausible way to integrate what we know, is N.J. being an apprentice at Kluge, Hughes walking into Kluge's saddlery, N.J. is assigned the task of solving the problem for Hughes and both N.J. and his boss Kluge are left believing each of them designed the scabbard. I'm certain JB thinks he designed the Askins Avenger all by himself! But it was a team effort.

Then having received his apprenticeship papers, but not owning the 'rights' to anything, N.J. moved on to LaGrange saddlery as a journeyman. He has form: he then moved on to several saddleries before starting his own in Utah, after which he returned to Texas and bought out LaGrange Saddlery (do I have that right?) to establish Zweiner & Rabensburg.

There is nothing in the Nelson tale that doesn't fit with this reading of it: Hughes was in Austin 1905-1907, N.J. was an apprentice at Kluge because of the obvious family connection, while he served his apprenticeship there Ranger Hughes stopped in and had a new creation made from the too-bulky King Ranch, N.J. graduated from his apprenticeship and was able to move on to work as a saddler (called 'mechanics') at LaGrange Saddlery while Kluge continued to make the unmarked Brills for the Rangers, N.J. got on with his life thereafter, August Brill wanted to leave W.T. Wroe and saw an opportunity in the scabbard being a drawing card at Kluge so bought them out, and that continued with the simplest version of the scabbard with the Brill marking until N.J. returned in 1932. N.J. designed a far more sophisticated and better made version of the scabbard but kept the Brill name on it as being part of what he paid for with the business. And by '64 all including Arno had passed away, with their tale forgotten.

For example, I have an article from a 1997 Gun Digest that claims that a Ranger Trimble conceived the Brill around 1920, and Tom Threepersons conceived his holster then, too; and took his idea to Myres. But although Trimble's scabbard probatively is an early Brill, obviously he simply acquired an example of the pre-existing design. And Tom didn't design his holster; instead he popularized the design via Sam Myres because that's how both men made their livings: celebrity endorsements. THAT article about Trimble is completely false; while Nelson's is completely true but he left out compelling details while the Gun Digest article was entirely fiction. As was Tom Threepersons!

That Nelson misunderstood what he was looking at with the Hamer holsters is no indication he didn't have his other facts right. As an example of 'right', indeed that is a Brill on Kiowa Jones.

Terminology may have gotten in our way. When I refer to a 'Rabensburg Brill' I mean one made in a particular way; and a "Kluge Brill' ditto. I also call them 'early' and 'late' Brills. In this manner we then know when they were made, which we couldn't do before. Heck, Old Cowboy Saddles and Spurs infected the auction for the Butch Cassidy revolver and holster auction with OCS&S's misrepresentation of Brill's active years, so possible during Butch's lifetime. But that error led them to reach the wrong conclusion: marked Brill it can't have been Butch's because he was killed in 1908; but NOT marked Brill it could have been Butch's because the design appeared as early as 1905.

Stay the course, Neale. I've quite this forum MANY times, yet here I am again!
 
I hope no toes have been stepped on and I've enjoyed a lively informative discussion about things and people long ago and far away. I've got no skin in the game as you two do but I do have a couple of nice Brills and of course that remains my primary interest-the holster.
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Regards,
 
Hold on Neale, after reading your post, I hope you don't want to leave the forum! It is not a competition. We all come here to voice our opinions, and it is a great place to do so because we have so many knowledgeable folks here. There are no outsiders, everyone is invited to participate. I don't think you have stepped on any toes either! Red is not our leader, but a valuable asset, as are you. I have disagreed with him in the past, but he is thick skinned, and supports his opinions with lots of research. You stated that you "have no technical skills with holster making", the forum has quite a few that do, and I am not one of them either. That is where Red shines, his wheelhouse so to speak.

Like I said above, you are a great asset to the forum, and bring perspective that no one else could. If you just look back to when you first joined this thread, you will see how fluid it has been to now. And if you go back even further, to 2018 when Holstory was published, it has changed astronomically. Much of it thanks to you.

At that time, I had one Brill Holster, personally knew little about your grandfather, and had never heard of Charles Kluge. Red informed me that my holster was one of your grandfather's, and I wanted to know more. I learned about stitching patterns and welts. I have many holsters, most being from the "big 3" Heiser, Myres, and Lawrence. Whenever I acquired a new to me holster, I always tried to learn as much as possible about it. At times I think I drove John Witty crazy with my many questions, Red too. But, that's what makes this forum so great. In January of this year in post #84, you introduced Charles Kluge to me. A short time later I learned his stitching pattern well enough, in fact, to buy one of his holsters on eBay after seeing it posted about 2am one night! Then my wanting to learn took off even more.

As time went by, I thought you kinda started looking at things with blinders on. I realize you are trying to cement your grandfather's place in Holster history, but at times, it seemed like you were trying to hard to make things fit your narrative. He was a great and superbly talented man and deserves his place in history. I know it seems like you and I were butting heads, but it was nothing personal. I mean there aren't many threads on here over 150 posts. Most of the time they peter out much quicker, but this one has held interest.

I know Brill holsters are your thing, but remember, this forum is so much more. I mean the "Official broccoli thread" is almost 400 posts!:rolleyes: This is a place to learn, laugh, and even cry sometimes. When I went through my Stage 4 Cancer ordeal in 2017, it was many members/friends here that helped me get through it with their support and encouragement! Neale , stick around and help us continue to make this the best forum on the internet.
Larry
 
Is the Floral Pattern of Your Rabensburg-made A W Brill Holster the Same as Mine?

I hope no toes have been stepped on and I've enjoyed a lively informative discussion about things and people long ago and far away. I've got no skin in the game as you two do but I do have a couple of nice Brills and of course that remains my primary interest-the holster.
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Regards,

I am envious of your two Rabensburg-made A W Brill holsters. Compare the floral pattern of yours with my December 2021 purchase. The same? I wish I had the template for this pattern but do have twenty leather templates or more of other floral designs.

Submitted by Neale Rabensburg
 

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I was trained as a historian many moons ago. I have a Ph.D. in history. One of things one realizes in studying the past is eyewitness accounts differ, even if contemporaneous to the events being studied. It is usually not a matter of dishonesty. Does not have to be a particular axe to grind (though it can be). People don't always perceive things the same way. And as time passes, memories... what? ... well, refine themselves in our minds into our own versions of past events.

I've noticed this within my own family when comparing notes with my siblings of events in our childhoods. Every now and then something I have remembered in a certain way for over half a century is proven clearly incorrect.

An historian does his best to piece together the truth of events past, but absolute certainty is pretty unusual.

Stan Nelson was accompanied on his trip to Texas and Austin by his brother Bill.

The recent posting by SW Forum member Onomea, who has a Ph.D. in history noted, "An historian does his best to piece together the truth of events past, but absolute certainty is pretty unusual".

Recall of the same events by more than one person may vary. However, Stan and his brother were together during the interview with N J Rabensburg at his workshop at 1903 N Lamar and undoubtedly discussed the events of their trip to Texas upon their return to Minnesota. With another witness present, the recall of the trip and interview may carry more validity, especially, if fieldnotes were made at the time or shortly thereafter.
 
...Same with N.J. I think the most plausible way to integrate what we know, is N.J. being an apprentice at Kluge, Hughes walking into Kluge's saddlery, N.J. is assigned the task of solving the problem for Hughes and both N.J. and his boss Kluge are left believing each of them designed the scabbard. I'm certain JB thinks he designed the Askins Avenger all by himself! But it was a team effort....
I like this comment. People can only tell you what they believe to be true.
 
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