A little Texas historical story - A. W. Brill Holsters

[boykinlp]

I just found something online that may help a little more in determining who was the first designer of the Brill holster. It has been said by some that Charles Kluge was just a superbly talented saddle maker, and how do we know for sure he made holsters. Well I found this:
Larry

https://www.austintexas.gov/edims/document.cfm?id=199534

Judges' Hill District History
Compiled by Phoebe Allen

Page 13
"William and Anna Kluge, originally from Germany, owned all of Outlot 15 (just north of 16) and built their brick home facing Pearl Street about 1880. Their sons Henry T. and Charles W. Kluge established a saddle and harness business on East Sixth Street in 1886. In the 1890s Charles built a charming one-story Victorian house with a wraparound porch and gabled attic at 1801 San Gabriel; it has since been moved to Heritage Square on Bee Caves Road."

Page 31
"c1880 WILLIAM KLUGE HOMESITE, 1802 Pearl (razed). Outlot 15.
William and Anna Kluge, originally from Germany, built a brick home about 1880. City Lot
Register for 1890 indicates that Anna owned all of Outlot 15, with a value of $3500. The Kluges had a saloon and restaurant on Congress. The couple had three children: Henry, Charles, and Mary. By 1881, Anna lived on Pearl 'between Chestnut and Magnolia' with two of her sons, Charles and Henry. The Kluges occupied the one-story house with attic floor for several years. The wood frame Victorian home had a front porch.
Their son Henry Theodor Kluge (1859-1939), a bookkeeper, and his wife Mattie Cooper McDannell Kluge (1861-1924) are listed at 1810 Pearl (razed) in the city directories from 1905- 37. Their frame home also had a partial porch with Victorian trim. Henry first went to school in Austin then finished primary, secondary and Heidleberg University in Germany. He and his brother Charles owned the Kluge Brothers Leather & Harness Shop on Congress & 5th. Charles was the artist in leather carving; he made and decorated saddles, chaps, boots, holsters and belts. Henry managed the business and raised fine saddle horses. [see 1897 Charles Kluge House]
1802 Pearl was sold to Angeline Townsend's daughter, Pauline Townsend Culbertson (3 Dec 1854-1920?), for herself and her two children: Angeline Louise Culbertson (1889-1996) and William James 'Jamie' Culbertson Jr. (1892-?). Culbertson was listed at 1802 Pearl in the 1909- 1920 City Directories."

Page 36
"1897 CHARLES KLUGE HOUSE, 1801 San Gabriel (moved). Outlot 15.
Brothers Henry T. and Charles W. Kluge established a saddle and harness business on East
Sixth Street in 1886. In the 1890s they acquired land from their mother, who had lived on the opposite side of the same block at 1802 Pearl. Charles built this charming one-story Victorian house with a wraparound porch and gabled attic; it has since been moved to Heritage Square on Bee Caves Road. The L-plan house had a basement. [see William Kluge House]
Henry Theodor Kluge (1859-1939) & his wife Mattie Cooper McDannell Kluge (1861- 1924) are listed at 1810 Pearl in the city directories from 1905 through 1937. Henry first went to school in Austin then finished primary, secondary and Heidleberg University in Germany. He and his brother Charles owned the Kluge Brothers Leather & Harness Shop on Congress & 5th. Charles was the artist in leather carving; he made and decorated saddles, chaps, boots, holsters and belts. Henry managed the business and raised fine saddle horses."

 

[bmcgilvray]

Thanks boykinlp!

All good stuff!

I'm an odd duck. I'm probably the only person who likes to look at other folks' vacation photos or read about their genealogies, hear their family histories, look at their old family photo albums.

I also like reading boring firearms factory historical letters, even if it shows the gun going to some obscure and defunct hardware store.

 

[arabensburg]

Let's talk about the sales market for "Brill" holsters

I do not have this down to a science, but we should be talking about the actual sales market for "thousands" of holsters in Texas from 1906 forward. The argument for, who created what, begins to take less of an emphasis if the quoted high numbers were not there during those earlier years.


BACKGROUND

Was some of the rhetoric about the A. W. Brill Company in the Austin Statesman newspaper article dated May 18, 1924 actually an exaggeration? Probably. Is this supposition on my part? Yes.

Please note. I am not changing my position with regards to who created the "Sunday" holster with Captain John R. Hughes around 1906 in Austin (or possibly in La Grange). I am still with N. J. Rabensburg based on the interview by Stan Nelson during the early 1950s.

Remember, I also remain, dynamic, that is, not set in stone, but the needle has not moved one way or the other for me with this recent barrage of posts.

One of these recent posts mentioned the passage of "YEARS" and the introduction of new information; however, I do want to remind the readers that "YEARS" was actually only four (4) and not eons. Two of those four were Pandemic when our attention was perhaps elsewhere. The past four (4) years for me seems like only yesterday.

I do, however, wish to stick my neck out and say that the enlarged photo image of the Kiowa Jones handgun and holster as pictured in 1910 appears to be closer to a Charles W. Kluge than a post-1932 N. J. Rabensburg holster due to its "thinness" or lack of a proper welt stack. I made a comment about the welt sack in a recent post. In my opinion, this does not discredit N. J. Rabensburg. In 1906, Rabensburg was a sixteen (16) year old gifted teen learning details of the trade. Future modifications to his holster design should be expected with acquired experience and feedback.

If you believe in the Stan Nelson article published in January 2008, then you might take the position that Charles W. Kluge did not create but rather copied the 1906 holster design by N. J. Rabensburg. Over the course of the next few decades, the "Brill" holster by Kluge remained virtually the same while the Rabensburg design evolved with a thicker welt stack.


MARKET

The main course of revenue for leather making companies prior to the Great War was probably saddles and harness plus a host of other products including buggies, whips, blankets, yokes, spurs, ropes, etc. Holsters had to be secondary and perhaps were not even offered by a number of rural area shops but was rather an order (catalogue) item.

The impact of the Colt 1911 probably waited until after the Great War when peace officers began to set aside their revolvers and use the features offered by high caliber (semi) automatics especially within the larger city police forces.

The Texas Rangers Force were in the hundreds and not thousands so a percentage out of that Force for a "Brill" holster should have been satisfied fairly quickly.

Following the Great War, the world had abruptly changed due to a new form of transportation, the automobile. Horse and carriages began to disappear along with a number of saddle shops as well. Those, which survived, had to narrow their product line; however, the future continued to look bleak. Tractors began to plow the fields replacing horses and mules as beasts of burden within the agricultural industry. This was all happening during the 1920s.

The A. W. Brill Company managed to survive because it developed an out-reach program and wholesale exchange market probably toward the end of the Great War. This was genius. While other leather shops fell by the way, the A. W. Brill Company managed to pick up the slack.

If you believe only half of the A. W. Brill Company story by the Austin Statesman newspaper dated May 18, 1924, then the noted but diminished sale figures are still very impressive. Credit for the wholesale market with its out-reach to the area towns of Brady, Mason, Junction, Llano, Georgetown, Taylor and New Braunfels should be credited to the business acumen of a very young Arno W. Brill, who appears to be a wholesale giant during this era of transition for the leather making industry within Central Texas.

Sales figures must have become brisk for holsters to fit automatic handguns after the Great War. Charles W. Kluge may have helped to fill some of those orders, but much of his time according to the 1924 newspaper article was spent with saddle making. However, I believe Kluge's saddle making career came to an end shortly after this newspaper article was written.

As the saddle market began to wane for the A. W. Brill Company and Charles W. Kluge during the mid to late 1920s, Kluge himself had to spend more of his time doing something else, which we know was holster making. I believe the sales of holsters via the A. W. Brill Company was never in the thousands but rather in the hundreds, which may be a more realistic figure.

During this time of transition, Arno W. Brill probably marketed the Company's holster product not only to the surrounding towns within Central Texas but to the State as a whole and perhaps beyond.

The year 1932 saw the arrival of N. J. Rabensburg at the A. W. Brill Company in Austin. That same year every Texas Ranger was discharged from the Force by the re-elected Governor, "Ma" Ferguson. The Texas Rangers ceased operations but somehow, the sale numbers at the A. W. Brill company managed to increase despite some unwarranted setbacks.

I am not sure of the retirement date for Charles W. Kluge. Was it around 1932 or later, say 1935, when N. J. Rabensburg bought out the A. W. Brill Company and renamed it after himself? I would like to think that Charles W. Kluge for a few more years continued to remain at the N. J. Rabensburg Company in downtown Austin. I would expect that Kluge continued to receive orders for his holsters but customers may have wanted the A. W. Brill maker mark as well.

I made my entry statement to this thread on November 17, 2021. I said in the second (2nd) paragraph the following:

"N. J. Rabensburg probably made many (if not all) of the A. W. Brill holsters from 1932 forward."

I may decide to amend this statement to reflect the possibility of a continued relationship on E. 6th Street by Charles W. Kluge past the year 1932 and perhaps beyond 1935. This is supposition on my part. Contact with a Kluge descendant may help with my supposition.

Thus, the A. W. Brill Company between 1932 and 1935 may have offered two separate designs for the A. W. Brill marked holster. These two holster designs may have also continued past 1935 as well since N. J. Rabensburg held the A. W. Brill maker stamp in his possession.


SUMMARY

The glory years for holster making at the A. W. Brill Company, in my opinion, actually occurred following the end of the Great War and most likely within the early 1920s. The automatic had appeared.

Charles W. Kluge at this time was making saddles. Someone else was identified on Sunday, May 18, 1924 as the holster maker for the Company but with no name. I call this person, the "mystery man".

Charles W. Kluge appears not to be the "mystery man" in 1924. I do think, however, he was making holsters. A few years later, Charles W. Kluge does assume the role of the "mystery man" and probably makes hundreds of holsters for peace officers in Central Texas and the State as whole and perhaps beyond thanks to the business prowess of one Arno W. Brill.

Submitted by Neale Rabensburg

 

[Pig Hunter]

I will agree that the number of saddles being made after WWI declined drastically. Frank Hamer switched to a car as soon as he could. But as far as harness goes, at least in Iowa , horses were used by the majority of farmers until WWII.

 

[boykinlp]

Alright, who here got this gem? It is a NJ Brill. It looks brand new, and to me, looks like some extra stitching at the mouth of the holster around the cutout for the trigger guard. It also kinda looks like it has a suede interior and back, but maybe it is just the unfinished side of the leather. I hope one of our forum members got it!
Larry

 

[bruce5781]

Alright, who here got this gem? It is a NJ Brill. It looks brand new, and to me, looks like some extra stitching at the mouth of the holster around the cutout for the trigger guard. It also kinda looks like it has a suede interior and back, but maybe it is just the unfinished side of the leather. I hope one of our forum members got it!

Larry

Not me. I jumped out at $657.

Sent from my SM-S127DL using Tapatalk

 

[rednichols]

Alright, who here got this gem? It is a NJ Brill. It looks brand new, and to me, looks like some extra stitching at the mouth of the holster around the cutout for the trigger guard. It also kinda looks like it has a suede interior and back, but maybe it is just the unfinished side of the leather. I hope one of our forum members got it!
Larry

Agreed it is special! The 'extra stitching' is because this is a fully lined Brill; made both early and late. And the first I've seen with the sueded side exposed. Agree it is likely N.J.'s standard calfskin lining with the grain side turned inwards, exposing what's called the 'flesh side'.

Both eras:





Now also notice that the stitching at the mouth, which is by machine as are the fender linings on all Brills, reverses near the welt stack and returns in a stylish effect.

 

[rednichols]

I will agree that the number of saddles being made after WWI declined drastically. Frank Hamer switched to a car as soon as he could. But as far as harness goes, at least in Iowa , horses were used by the majority of farmers until WWII.

There's no doubt about that. Even Sam Myres pointed that out, right before he faced his personal reality and switched to gunleather instead (in his biography by Sandra Myres). This is January 1928:



His second wife Tess would die of her morphine addiction that very year, his great niece reports that he began the switch to gunleather in 1929, and his first all gunleather catalog appeared for 1930.

As mentioned in another post, at the turn of that century there were 25,000 saddleries; Sandra Myres reports that in the 1920s two thirds of Texas' saddleries closed.

 

[rednichols]

I do not have this down to a science, but we should be talking about the actual sales market for "thousands" of holsters in Texas from 1906 forward. The argument for, who created what, begins to take less of an emphasis if the quoted high numbers were not there during those earlier years.


BACKGROUND

Was some of the rhetoric about the A. W. Brill Company in the Austin Statesman newspaper article dated May 18, 1924 actually an exaggeration? Probably. Is this supposition on my part? Yes.

Please note. I am not changing my position with regards to who created the "Sunday" holster with Captain John R. Hughes around 1906 in Austin (or possibly in La Grange). I am still with N. J. Rabensburg based on the interview by Stan Nelson during the early 1950s.

Remember, I also remain, dynamic, that is, not set in stone, but the needle has not moved one way or the other for me with this recent barrage of posts.

One of these recent posts mentioned the passage of "YEARS" and the introduction of new information; however, I do want to remind the readers that "YEARS" was actually only four (4) and not eons. Two of those four were Pandemic when our attention was perhaps elsewhere. The past four (4) years for me seems like only yesterday.

I do, however, wish to stick my neck out and say that the enlarged photo image of the Kiowa Jones handgun and holster as pictured in 1910 appears to be closer to a Charles W. Kluge than a post-1932 N. J. Rabensburg holster due to its "thinness" or lack of a proper welt stack. I made a comment about the welt sack in a recent post. In my opinion, this does not discredit N. J. Rabensburg. In 1906, Rabensburg was a sixteen (16) year old gifted teen learning details of the trade. Future modifications to his holster design should be expected with acquired experience and feedback.

If you believe in the Stan Nelson article published in January 2008, then you might take the position that Charles W. Kluge did not create but rather copied the 1906 holster design by N. J. Rabensburg. Over the course of the next few decades, the "Brill" holster by Kluge remained virtually the same while the Rabensburg design evolved with a thicker welt stack.


MARKET

The main course of revenue for leather making companies prior to the Great War was probably saddles and harness plus a host of other products including buggies, whips, blankets, yokes, spurs, ropes, etc. Holsters had to be secondary and perhaps were not even offered by a number of rural area shops but was rather an order (catalogue) item.

The impact of the Colt 1911 probably waited until after the Great War when peace officers began to set aside their revolvers and use the features offered by high caliber (semi) automatics especially within the larger city police forces.

The Texas Rangers Force were in the hundreds and not thousands so a percentage out of that Force for a "Brill" holster should have been satisfied fairly quickly.

Following the Great War, the world had abruptly changed due to a new form of transportation, the automobile. Horse and carriages began to disappear along with a number of saddle shops as well. Those, which survived, had to narrow their product line; however, the future continued to look bleak. Tractors began to plow the fields replacing horses and mules as beasts of burden within the agricultural industry. This was all happening during the 1920s.

The A. W. Brill Company managed to survive because it developed an out-reach program and wholesale exchange market probably toward the end of the Great War. This was genius. While other leather shops fell by the way, the A. W. Brill Company managed to pick up the slack.

If you believe only half of the A. W. Brill Company story by the Austin Statesman newspaper dated May 18, 1924, then the noted but diminished sale figures are still very impressive. Credit for the wholesale market with its out-reach to the area towns of Brady, Mason, Junction, Llano, Georgetown, Taylor and New Braunfels should be credited to the business acumen of a very young Arno W. Brill, who appears to be a wholesale giant during this era of transition for the leather making industry within Central Texas.

Sales figures must have become brisk for holsters to fit automatic handguns after the Great War. Charles W. Kluge may have helped to fill some of those orders, but much of his time according to the 1924 newspaper article was spent with saddle making. However, I believe Kluge's saddle making career came to an end shortly after this newspaper article was written.

As the saddle market began to wane for the A. W. Brill Company and Charles W. Kluge during the mid to late 1920s, Kluge himself had to spend more of his time doing something else, which we know was holster making. I believe the sales of holsters via the A. W. Brill Company was never in the thousands but rather in the hundreds, which may be a more realistic figure.

During this time of transition, Arno W. Brill probably marketed the Company's holster product not only to the surrounding towns within Central Texas but to the State as a whole and perhaps beyond.

The year 1932 saw the arrival of N. J. Rabensburg at the A. W. Brill Company in Austin. That same year every Texas Ranger was discharged from the Force by the re-elected Governor, "Ma" Ferguson. The Texas Rangers ceased operations but somehow, the sale numbers at the A. W. Brill company managed to increase despite some unwarranted setbacks.

I am not sure of the retirement date for Charles W. Kluge. Was it around 1932 or later, say 1935, when N. J. Rabensburg bought out the A. W. Brill Company and renamed it after himself? I would like to think that Charles W. Kluge for a few more years continued to remain at the N. J. Rabensburg Company in downtown Austin. I would expect that Kluge continued to receive orders for his holsters but customers may have wanted the A. W. Brill maker mark as well.

I made my entry statement to this thread on November 17, 2021. I said in the second (2nd) paragraph the following:

"N. J. Rabensburg probably made many (if not all) of the A. W. Brill holsters from 1932 forward."

I may decide to amend this statement to reflect the possibility of a continued relationship on E. 6th Street by Charles W. Kluge past the year 1932 and perhaps beyond 1935. This is supposition on my part. Contact with a Kluge descendant may help with my supposition.

Thus, the A. W. Brill Company between 1932 and 1935 may have offered two separate designs for the A. W. Brill marked holster. These two holster designs may have also continued past 1935 as well since N. J. Rabensburg held the A. W. Brill maker stamp in his possession.


SUMMARY

The glory years for holster making at the A. W. Brill Company, in my opinion, actually occurred following the end of the Great War and most likely within the early 1920s. The automatic had appeared.

Charles W. Kluge at this time was making saddles. Someone else was identified on Sunday, May 18, 1924 as the holster maker for the Company but with no name. I call this person, the "mystery man".

Charles W. Kluge appears not to be the "mystery man" in 1924. I do think, however, he was making holsters. A few years later, Charles W. Kluge does assume the role of the "mystery man" and probably makes hundreds of holsters for peace officers in Central Texas and the State as whole and perhaps beyond thanks to the business prowess of one Arno W. Brill.

Submitted by Neale Rabensburg

I'll defend to the death, your right to your opinion in this matter.

What matters to collectors, is that the distinguishing features when combined with the makers' lifetimes and their service at Brill, allow us to date a Brill. That was the original purpose of the whole exercise when I spotted the distinctive difference between Brills (there are only two types marked Brill). In this way we know an 'early' from a 'late'; and this is consistent with the known owners of various Brills that have survived into the present day.

I'll use Texas Ranger Lee Trimble's because we know precisely when he served, and who was building the Brills at that time that was 1918 to 1924:



And Texas Ranger A.C. Love's, who served 1933 to 1935:



We will notice, then, that their construction tells us who made them, and their years at Brill match nicely with the Rangers' service periods.

 

[boykinlp]

Agreed it is special! The 'extra stitching' is because this is a fully lined Brill; made both early and late. And the first I've seen with the sueded side exposed. Agree it is likely N.J.'s standard calfskin lining with the grain side turned inwards, exposing what's called the 'flesh side'.

Well, we should have known, or at least expected it. I was looking around the forum and found another Brill with the extra stitching like on this holster, and guess who owns it? None other than our illustrious holster leader, tunerriver! And his may even be rarer since it has a hammer protector. It is spectacular! We should have known since he owns one of everything!!
Larry

 

[rednichols]

Having that pic from turnerriver already -- and I think it is in Holstory -- I, too, have called it a hammer guard; but it appears to have originated as a rear sight protector.



Later, it was Wolfam who began to use a truncated version just for the rear sights:

 

[StrawHat]

Does anyone have patterns to make a Sunday scabbard? I have a good leathersmith and he is willing to make one for me if I can supply @ pattern.

Kevin

 

[rednichols]

Does anyone have patterns to make a Sunday scabbard? I have a good leathersmith and he is willing to make one for me if I can supply @ pattern.

Kevin

I used to; direct from disassembled Brills and Sessums and Myres; offered them around and literally couldn't GIVE them away. So into the rubbish they went.

But. I have images that have a a dimensional reference -- the backgrounds -- so I'll send you a PM and we can exchange emails for full size images.

There's a heap more to know about making a Sunday scabbard than having the patterns though. I'll do my best to explain there.

 

[StrawHat]

I used to; direct from disassembled Brills and Sessums and Myres; offered them around and literally couldn't GIVE them away. So into the rubbish they went.

But. I have images that have a a dimensional reference -- the backgrounds -- so I'll send you a PM and we can exchange emails for full size images.

There's a heap more to know about making a Sunday scabbard than having the patterns though. I'll do my best to explain there.

Thank you for your kind offer, email has been sent.

Kevin

 

[arabensburg]

Wessels says tractors replaced horses by the end of the 1920s in Nebraska

I will agree that the number of saddles being made after WWI declined drastically. Frank Hamer switched to a car as soon as he could. But as far as harness goes, at least in Iowa , horses were used by the majority of farmers until WWII.

According to Wessels, Living History Farm, York, Nebraska:

"In 1920, a revolution (in) farm machinery was just beginning. In York County Nebraska, most farmers were still farming with horses, like many of their counterparts across America. Horses or mules pulled the rudimentary machines that plowed the soil, planted seeds, and harvested a crop. Picking corn and other harvest tasks were done by hand, but machines were used to shell the corn and thresh grain (mechanically separate the wheat or oat kernels from the straw).

But a few manufacturers had begun building mechanized tractors, planters, cultivators and harvesters. In the late 1800s, there had been a few steam tractor models built and sold. Even by 1905, there were only six tractor makers in the entire United States. By 1920, there were more than 160 tractor makers selling hundreds of different models powered by a variety of fuels. A year later there were 186 different different companies and the number of tractors on farms approached 200,000.....


Sometimes neighboring farmers pooled their funds to buy a big piece of equipment together and spread the cost. Other times, one owner would rent his threshing machine out, moving the machine from farm to farm, charging a fee to thresh the grain. Although steam- and gasoline-powered tractors had been available for several years, few farmers wanted or could afford these big, heavy machines in the early 1920s. A smaller, lighter tractor had been developed by 1926. By 1930, most Nebraska farmers had traded their horses for tractors. By using tractors, farmers could plow, plant, and harvest more acres with fewer workers.....

The U.S. Department of Agriculture reports that it took 40-50 labor hours to produce 100 bushels of wheat on five acres with a gang plow, seeder, harrow, binder, thresher, wagons, and horses in the 1890s. By 1930, it took 15-20 labor hours to produce 100 bushels of wheat on 5 acres with a three-bottom gang plow, tractor, 10-foot tandem disk, harrow, 12-foot combine, and trucks.....

For corn, it took 35-40 labor hours in 1890 to produce 100 bushels on 2.5 acres with a two-bottom gang plow, disk and peg-tooth harrow, and 2-row planter. By the end of the 1920s, it took 15-20 labor hours to produce 100 bushels of corn on 2.5 acres with a 2-bottom gang plow, seven-foot tandem disk, four-section harrow, two-row planters, cultivators, and pickers."

My maternal grandfather Arthur Rives Buck was a farmer in northcentral west Texas (Coleman County). He kept his two plow horses through the 1920s but was using tractor equipment on a cooperative/rental basis as well. I saw the rusting hulk of one of those early tractors in a nearby field during the early 1950s. My mother rode one of the plow horses to school during the 1920s.

Submitted by Neale Rabensburg

 

[arabensburg]

A Reply to Comments in Post No. 144

There is supposition everywhere. There are also facts, see post #132.
Larry

Two weeks ago, I did plan to respond to Larry's Post #144 dated May 30, 2022, which was in reply to my previous Post #143 submitted on the same day. However, some health issues got in the way, but now I am better and will limit my comments to two, which are taken from the following paragraph, which said the following:

"N J Rabensburg was an excellent holster maker. After 1932, he made great improvements to a holster which we know as the "advanced Brill holster". It is a fantastic holster, and his use of multi welts is very technological. But, he didn't make every Brill and pre Brill holster ever made."

MY REPLAY

Comment No. 1

N J Rabensburg may have indeed made improvements to his holster design after 1932, but he probably perfected the "advanced Brill holster" in the years prior including the additional welt stack.

Remember, the negotiations for a job position at the A W Brill Company was ongoing during the early 1930s, and I would guess Rabensburg's holster design was one of the hot topics discussed.

I mentioned this earlier in a post concerning the Great Depression of 1929, when Rabensburg undoubtedly saw the writing on the wall. He had been fortunate and able to survive longer in Llano, Texas because it was within cattle producing country where horses and cowboys continued to play an important role. However, the economic depression cast another shadow over his leather making business, so it was decision making time.

Rabensburg had to either get out, that is, find another career or specialize. He obviously made the decision to specialize and stay in the leather making business most likely during the late 1920s and, therefore, turned his attention to holster making but on a fast track basis. To accomplish this goal, Rabensburg needed to relocate into a large populated market and to associate with a well-established company. The offer by the A W Brill Company was very timely.

Larry, my thoughts are, yes, supposition but based on real circumstances where dots can be connected. I do not think any of what I have said on this particular thought either now or previously is out-of-line.

But I do ask that you give me your thoughts in more detail on how Rabensburg came by the "advanced Brill holster" but only after 1932. I, of course, still believe Rabensburg was concentrating on the perfection of his holster no later than the late 1920s.

Comment No. 2

Larry, your last comment in the above paragraph stated the following:

"But, he didn't make every Brill and pre Brill holster ever made."

I only bring this up because I thought this comment was directed towards me. I wanted to tell you and the readers of this thread that I do not recall such a comment on my part.

We have all talked about 1932 forward and also with the early years prior to the founding of the A W Brill Company beginning in 1906. The Stan Nelson article defined those early years based on an interview with N J Rabensburg during the early 1950s. Everything in between the early years and 1932, however, is subject to a varying degree of speculation. The one exception is the Stan Nelson article, which is a published piece of documentation.

However, market trends on gun sales during the 1910s and the 1920s, particularly, in Texas, can be determined, which will help to define the actual sale of holsters to carry those guns produced. Knowing actual gun sales during the time period between 1912 and 1924 may help to determine whether or not the A W Brill Company was able to make "thousands" of holsters as boasted by the Austin Statesman newspaper dated May 18, 1924.

Anyway, back to me. I do not believe that I ever made the aforementioned comment but do support in the following:

1. Prior to 1932, Rabensburg was mostly on his own making a living selling saddles, harness, yokes, ropes, spurs, and the like. Holster making may have been secondary and probably on a special order basis.

2. Prior to 1932, Charles W. Kluge was indeed the maker of the marked Brill holster at the A W Brill Company assuming the role of the "mystery man" but probably during the last half of the 1920s. I know we are both at odds with some of Kluge's accomplishments at the A W Brill Company, but I do believe he was the artistic director and became more important during the last half of the 1920s with his holster sales.

Submitted by Neale Rabensburg

 

[boykinlp]

I know this post is a little shotgun pattern like (not in the best order), but it is starting to drive me a little crazy trying to keep up!

Post #66
Accolade rejection may have occurred as early as 1915 after N J Rabensburg's return to Texas from Price, Utah. In Price, he did use a maker mark on his saddles and chaps. Has anyone seen a custom leather product made between 1915 and 1932 by "N J RABENSBURG MAKER LAGRANGE, TEX" or "N J RABENSBURG MAKER LLANO, TEX"? I have not seen any so far. Have you? I would also like to know if any of the older, unmarked "Brill" holsters, which have been identified as a N J Rabensburg design, were made earlier than previously thought, that is, during the 1920s.

Sounds like you were on board with NJ's holsters not showing up until after 1932ish, but were hoping that some were from the 1920's, but where is the proof?

Post #67
N J Rabensburg's leather career spanned from 1907 to 1961. He worked diligently almost non-stop for about 54 years. He dotted the US map extensively as a young, single man until his marriage in 1915. He continued to dot the map with his young family but within central Texas making Austin his final and ultimate move.

N J Rabensburg's leather career can be divided into several periods and milestones. They are as follows:

1. THE FORMATIVE YEARS (1907 to 1915)-N J Rabensburg as an apprentice gained experience through association, travel and hard work and became a leather shop owner at a very early age.

2. THE TRANSITION INTO MATURITY (1919 to 1929)-N J Rabensburg matured in his leather making business both in La Grange and Llano, Texas, where he became confident and capable.

Neale, in your own posts, you don't have NJ even starting his leather career until 1907, but we know the meeting of Ranger Hughes with a leather worker (Kluge) happened in Austin in 1905. You don't even have him relevant until 1929.

Post #70
"Brill" holster enthusiasts, who have been a part of this Smith and Wesson Forum, should now recognize that N J Rabensburg and A W Brill maker are one and the same after 1932.

You are correct, we (S&W forum members) do now recognize that NJ Rabensburg and A W Brill maker are one and the same after 1932.

And from your last post (post #196):
Anyway, back to me. I do not believe that I ever made the aforementioned comment but do support in the following:

1. Prior to 1932, Rabensburg was mostly on his own making a living selling saddles, harness, yokes, ropes, spurs, and the like. Holster making may have been secondary and probably on a special order basis.

You are saying NJ's holster making was secondary prior to 1932, but the article said someone was making thousands from 1912-1924, many to the Texas Rangers. That was Charles Kluge.

Post #196
Larry, your last comment in the above paragraph stated the following:

"But, he didn't make every Brill and pre Brill holster ever made."

I only bring this up because I thought this comment was directed towards me. I wanted to tell you and the readers of this thread that I do not recall such a comment on my part.

"Post #12
N. J. Rabensburg probably made many (if not all) of the A. W. Brill holsters from 1932 forward. The "glory" years for the A. W. Brill Company (the Company) occurred with the arrival of Rabensburg in the late summer of 1932.

Post #91
If the two subject holsters are early "Brill" look-a-likes, then they should bear no maker mark if they are marketed through the A W Brill Company, and these two fit the bill. The A W Brill Company would have to be selling multiple "Brill" look-a-likes along with Charles W Kluge's in-house holster to meet the "thousands" of sale figures as noted in the Austin Statesman article of May 18, 1924. Since the above two designs are close in appearance to an N J Rabensburg "Brill", I want to include both as possible Rabensburg holster candidates.

1. The stitching pattern on one of the above two holsters is not a close match to N J Rabensburg's 1932 to 1961 holsters. But does it have to be? Since the time period is earlier and probably in the 1920s, then the stitching pattern may have remained dynamic and continued to evolve for Rabensburg.
N J Rabensburg could, thus, be one of the "Brill look-a-likes" and marketed by the A W Brill Company."

The above was your quote from post #12. You basically said he made all Brill holsters from 1932 forward. And from post #91, all of the holsters that, expert holster designer Red Nichols, has attributed to Charles Kluge because of stitching patterns and holster design, you are saying they are possible NJ holsters. And that the actual stitching patterns aren't actually Kluge's, but a continuing dynamic change in NJ's stitching pattern! Between these 2 posts of yours is where I determined you believe all Brill's must be your grandfather's holsters! When I posted it, I was posting it kinda tongue in cheek, but I think you may truly believe it.

Post #196
However, market trends on gun sales during the 1910s and the 1920s, particularly, in Texas, can be determined, which will help to define the actual sale of holsters to carry those guns produced. Knowing actual gun sales during the time period between 1912 and 1924 may help to determine whether or not the A W Brill Company was able to make "thousands" of holsters as boasted by the Austin Statesman newspaper dated May 18, 1924.

You keep posting that the Austin Statesman article must be wrong on the "thousands" of holsters made by Brill and ignoring this post by expert holster maker, Red Nichols from post #32:

"Do the math on 'thousands of holsters over the last 12 years (the article is 1924, the company sale was 1912): assuming 'thousands' over 12 years is working 5 days/week for 50 weeks (could have been more in that era) amounts to 3,000 days, then Charles has had to make fewer than one holster a day. Lotsa time left over for saddlery."

More on the "thousands of holsters":
Post #58
Also, according to the Austin Statesman, the A W Brill Company was making scabbards and belts by the "thousands". The paper identifies the designer and maker of these holsters for A W Brill Company as "one expert leatherworker (who) has been busy supplying Texas Rangers and other peace officers with belt and scabbard for their guns." Could this expert leatherworker have actually been more than one person and included wholesale scabbards and belts made by N J Rabensburg of Llano?

The obituary for Charles W Kluge (died in January 1944), says in part the following:

"Kluge designed a SCABBARD and belt for a six-shooter that was worn by practically every peace officer in Texas and filled orders all over the world."

And finally you posted:
"2. Prior to 1932, Charles W. Kluge was indeed the maker of the marked Brill holster at the A W Brill Company assuming the role of the "mystery man" but probably during the last half of the 1920s. I know we are both at odds with some of Kluge's accomplishments at the A W Brill Company, but I do believe he was the artistic director and became more important during the last half of the 1920s with his holster sales."

Neale you are starting to come around to the correct thinking. Kluge was the maker of all the marked Brill's before 1932, from 1912-1932, and also the unmarked Brill-A-Likes, with his stitching pattern, before 1912.
Larry

 

[arabensburg]

N J Rabensburg was a holster designer prior to the A W Brill Company

I too have been on a learning curve (since 2018).

I am not at odds with the first or second periods at the A W Bill Company for Charles W. Kluge and N J Rabensburg. Kluge was probably the artistic director from 1912 until his retirement, which was around 1932 (or perhaps a few years later).

N J Rabensburg came on board (at the A W Brill Company) about September 1, 1932 and may have assumed the role of artistic director at that time or perhaps by 1935, when he bought the A W Brill Company and changed the name to the N J Rabensburg Company.

I hope everyone is aware that N J Rabensburg was associated with the A W Brill Company (as an employee) for only a short three (3) years.

Rabensburg did, however, retain the A W Brill maker stamp (via an agreement with the Brill family, it is assumed) and continued with its use until his death in 1961.

Kluge was a maker of the "Brill" type holster during his tenure at the A W Brill Company. N J Rabensburg was also a maker of his version of the "Brill-type holster beginning with his arrival at the A W Brill Company in 1932.

The above, however, does not say that N J Rabensburg was "not into holster making prior to 1932" because there is third party documentation to that effect. Stan Nelson interviewed N J Rabensburg during the early 1950s about his holster making career, which apparently started around 1906 with Captain John R Hughes.

However, this documentation, which is referred to on this thread as the "Stan Nelson article", is now being refuted as untrue. This places my grandfather, Newton Joseph Rabensburg, into a very bad light as a liar because the narrative within the article came from his own lips.

The narrative is about N J Rabensburg's contact with Captain John R. Hughes concerning the "Sunday" holster. The new narrative as now being proposed by Red Nichols might be paraphrased as follows:

No, Rabensburg did not meet with Captain John R. Hughes, but it was rather Charles W. Kluge.

If the Stan Nelson article can be cast as untrue, then my grandfather is indeed a liar. Whether said directly or indirectly, it does not matter to me, the result is still the same.

To discredit Stan Nelson himself as reporting the Stan Nelson article incorrectly perhaps due to his advanced age is a stretch, since Nelson's reputation is impeccable.

I spoke last week with a gentleman, who knew Nelson for almost sixty (60) years and recalls the article. This gentleman is prepared to give a character reference on Nelson. This same gentleman also has in his possession one "Brill-type" holster, which had been made by Rabensburg for Stan Nelson during the early 1950s interview.

It is my understanding that this Rabensburg made "Brill-type" holster stamped with initials on the cuff will be donated to the Texas Rangers Hall of Fame and Museum in Waco along with a copy of the Stan Nelson article published in 2008.

Submitted by Neale Rabensburg

 

[boykinlp]

Neale, you are doing it again. We are NOT and WILL NOT EVER call or think that your grandfather is a liar because I am SURE it is not true!!! I am also not calling Mr. Nelson a liar.

The discrepancy I am having is very simple. I believe that Mr. Nelson simply has his dates or maybe city confused, or maybe both. He is trying to remember around 100 years of history. It is as simple as that. Mr. Nelson doesn't need a character reference. I am sure he was an honorable man too. Your grandfather was a very important person in the Brill holster history. His revolutionary Brill design is the one that EVERYBODY loves today! It is fantastic!! I would be extremely proud of him if he was my grandfather too. You have every reason to be proud. I do think he was severely slighted for his role of Brill history for decades, but YOU have done a terrific job of bringing his name to it's rightful place in history! You are lucky in that there are many, many more of your grandfather's holsters available to view or even buy if you have the funds. The cost of his holsters is immense, because they are so valued. I, personally, wish he had stamped them all with the Brill stamp on the front cuff, as well as signing them on the back with an identifying mark. You probably do too. But, to people in the know, he kinda did. His stitching pattern is that signature. Unfortunately, those not in the know, the general public, don't know that.

I just believe that Charles Kluge has a place in Brill holster history too. And it is not as an artistic director! It is as a holster designer and maker. He doesn't have a family member here on his behalf, like NJ has you. If he did, and if that family member was from Texas, the state might not be big enough to keep y'all apart.

Keep showing us your holsters, and bringing us new information. But, remember, I am not attacking you or calling your grandfather a liar. I am just following the dots as you and Red have put out there. Sincerely,
Larry

 

[rednichols]

This thread has become a tragedy of misunderstandings, largely brought about by difficulties among us, in parsing the words of Nelson about Rabensburg. I only join in now because my name has been used in vain . No harm done but:

Nelson made some errors around his images included with the articles. You and he can just get over it; he didn't have enough information or expertise to know to do better, and now we do. That does not indicate all the rest of his article isn't completely correct.

Diverting from this by saying that some are calling others liars, is misdirection. A conflict in data is no indication that liars are involved. It's an indication that people can disagree based on what each knows. This is no way to advance the knowledge of holstory. We'll be arguing about commas next.