have a few question regarding an early smith & wesson 44 double action first model re

[Kinman]

Possibly the original 44-40 cases were balloon cases like the early .44 special otherwise I can see no way you could get 40 grains of 3F, let alone 2F without significant compression. Part of the reason I prefer Swiss over Goex (no longer in production) is that it requires much less compression and produces better results, cleaner, snappier ignition. Perhaps that is the reason someone would want to use 4F, silly me. I had a muzzle loader buddy that once used 4F in his .50 caliber rifle. He said that the recoil was significant and it even re-cocked his hammer for him. I do know some guys that use 4F in diminutive .22 caliber muzzle loading gallery rifles, using .22 caliber target pellets over a couple grains, one of them is still in the developmental process and thinks he's onto something. Cheap shooting muzzle loader fun...cheaper than a .22 rifle.

 

[Model19man]

Possibly the original 44-40 cases were balloon cases like the early .44 special otherwise I can see no way you could get 40 grains of 3F, let alone 2F without significant compression. Part of the reason I prefer Swiss over Goex (no longer in production) is that it requires much less compression and produces better results, cleaner, snappier ignition. Perhaps that is the reason someone would want to use 4F, silly me. I had a muzzle loader buddy that once used 4F in his .50 caliber rifle. He said that the recoil was significant and it even re-cocked his hammer for him. I do know some guys that use 4F in diminutive .22 caliber muzzle loading gallery rifles, using .22 caliber target pellets over a couple grains, one of them is still in the developmental process and thinks he's onto something. Cheap shooting muzzle loader fun...cheaper than a .22 rifle.

Of course they were balloon cases - click here and scroll down Chasing the 44-40 - Pressure Testing:

 

[BMur]

Goex no longer produced?

Kinman,
Goex sold out to Estes Corp.
A clip from there latest report;

Take that to mean we’ll see new GOEX and Olde Eynsford cans in the fourth quarter of 2022, or even the first quarter of 2023. Estes has reportedly told distributors that there will be no change in product distribution.

Yippee!!

They also clearly state that there is a high demand for black powder from various users. Military still uses it, fireworks, muzzle loaders, cartridge loaders like us, etc.
so it’s a long way from extinction!

Murph

 

[Bryan Austin]

Of course they were balloon cases - click here and scroll down Chasing the 44-40 - Pressure Testing:

Thanks, has anyone watched the little video clip at the beginning of that webpage? That is one ugly *** that has an attitude as big as his fat belly.

Correct, early 44-40 WRA (Winchester) cases were of the solid head design but incorporated the large balloon pockets. These pockets gradually decreased in size. Some later cases had a simple little "bump". As the pocket size decreased, it would appear from test results that pressures and velocities decreased. The earliest published pressures I have seen is a WRA Cartridge Engineering document stating that the Service Pressures for the 44 cartridge used in the Win 73' is 13,000cup and the service pressure for the cartridge used in the 92' is 18,000cup, obviously referring to smokeless powder use.

Pressure test that I was able to make yielded the following;

Early red label smokeless boxes had labels on the bottom of the box telling folks to never reload them...but eventually dropped with no change in powders or charges.

One would think the FFFg may be more powerful than FFg powder. This may be correct but test examples proved otherwise. What proved more powerful was the quality of the powder rather than the granulars.

Correct, Your Milage May Vary!!!

In the black powder tests I ran in 2018, Swiss FFg yielded higher pressures and higher velocities compared to the same charge of Goex FFFg.

For those that still think you can not get 40gr by weight into a case, these powders were compressed from between .17" to .19" or so, with modern Starline cases being able to contain 40gr by weight of Swiss FFg and Goex FFFg with .21" compression.

These Solid-Head, Semi Balloon Pocket cases, much stronger than the folded head type, were still not as strong as today's modern cases with no balloon pocket.

John Kort wrote some great posts on the subject: Chasing the 44-40 - Two Peas In A Pod by John Kort

Back to the revolver, pending condition from age, (all anyone can do is guess at this by an inspection, even a gunsmith) as long as the bore is no smaller than .427", Buffalo Bore's .428" load should work with no problems. However, personally...I too would take it easy on the ole girl and not shoot such harsh loads.

 

[Kinman]

Kinman,
Goex sold out to Estes Corp.
A clip from there latest report;

Take that to mean we’ll see new GOEX and Olde Eynsford cans in the fourth quarter of 2022, or even the first quarter of 2023. Estes has reportedly told distributors that there will be no change in product distribution.

Yippee!!

They also clearly state that there is a high demand for black powder from various users. Military still uses it, fireworks, muzzle loaders, cartridge loaders like us, etc.
so it’s a long way from extinction!

Murph

Murph, As an affiliate with the NMLRB I have been given the heads up about the Estes issue, reports of a new modernized facility are in the wind. We were told to not make any expectations until first quarter of '23, happy to have a supply and current info from Buffalo Arms regarding incoming supply of Swiss and Schuetzen.

 

[steelslaver]

I have a blued 4" double action 44 Russian with a factory letter and it has an in the white extractor star

 

[delta-419]

First 44-40 Frontier to Market?

I am a bit confused as to market time introduction of the 44-40 Frontier. When did the first model sale to the public? My gun is a shooter grade gun as I first saw it in Anchorage Alaska at a SASS competition. The fellow who owned it also had a gun shop and said that it was for sale for $300 about 25 years ago. It did shoot well but it looked like it had been run over by a herd of moose. The intrigue was the serial number 222, I have shown it before. It letters as nickel but is now blue. David Chicoine cleaned it up and replaced the springs. This gun shipped on October 8, 1887. When was #222 manufactured?

 

[Jim Watson]

These Solid-Head, Semi Balloon Pocket cases, much stronger than the folded head type, were still not as strong as today's modern cases with no balloon pocket.

Was .44 WCF ever loaded in folded head cases?

I have seen government ammunition, .50-70, .45-70, .45 Colt in folded head, but not commercial stuff.

 

[Bryan Austin]

Was .44 WCF ever loaded in folded head cases?

Unless the Milbanked primed cases were folded, then no.

 

[BMur]

Folded head vs Solid head case

The original Winchester 73’ in 44 WCF is listed as a folded head case until 1880 when the company is listed as first introducing the solid head case.
The photos depict the first Solid head cases from 1880-1884 when they started head stamping cases.
Therefore, those cases found at the little big horn sight would be folded head cases.
These early cases are literally impossible to find today. The few that remain are in collections and likely loose and unidentified since you’d have to cut the case to prove it’s folded.

Even non head stamped solid head cases are scarce today. Made for only 4 years! 1880-1884.


Murph

 

[Bryan Austin]

The original Winchester 73’ in 44 WCF is listed as a folded head case until 1880 when the company is listed as first introducing the solid head case.
The photos depict the first Solid head cases from 1880-1884 when they started head stamping cases.
Therefore, those cases found at the little big horn sight would be folded head cases.
These early cases are literally impossible to find today. The few that remain are in collections and likely loose and unidentified since you’d have to cut the case to prove it’s folded.

Even non head stamped solid head cases are scarce today. Made for only 4 years! 1880-1884.


Murph

Show me exactly where this cartridge is listed as a folded head cartridge. I need such information and photos

 

[BMur]

Cartridge colletors

Hi Bryan,

I just had it up...I'll post it later. I have some other research material up and I can't dump it right now.

You can start with the cartridge collector website? Also follow some of the forums that have documents on UMC. UMC didn't start using solid head cases until 1883. So any cartridges they manufactured prior to 1883 would have been folded head balloon type cases.

They also post some earlier 44 Winchester boxes that "Lack" the solid head listing on the cover of the cartridge box. The boxes also clearly denote "The NEW" Winchester rifle. Those are very early boxes containing folded head non head stamped cartridges.... Extremely rare.

Murph

 

[BMur]

Follow up

Bryan,

I pulled this up on my phone. From the Cartridge collecting forum. Those folks are really into it and have company documents. Early Pre-solid head box of 44/40 ammo and reference.
Remember that for UMC boxes produced post 1883 would denote “solid head” clearly stamped on the label.

Murph

 

[Bryan Austin]

You can start with the cartridge collector website? Also follow some of the forums that have documents on UMC. UMC didn't start using solid head cases until 1883. So any cartridges they manufactured prior to 1883 would have been folded head balloon type cases.

Yes, all I could find there was a statement that the unheadstamped cases between 1880 and 1884 were of the solid head type while insinuating that Winchester constructed them as folded head types prior to that time.

The empty Solid Head cases shown are said to be post 1880. Of the two cartridges shown, the one on the left is a 44 WCF of the solid head design that incorporates the balloon head pocket. The one on the right is a .38-44 Smith & Wesson cartridge with a folded head.

I have corresponded with Guy several times about 44-40 items, the latest being the "44 Remington" cartridges (44-40) and boxes he recently acquired.

They also post some earlier 44 Winchester boxes that "Lack" the solid head listing on the cover of the cartridge box. The boxes also clearly denote "The NEW" Winchester rifle. Those are very early boxes containing folded head non head stamped cartridges.... Extremely rare.
Murph

The only other 44-40 box, prior to the Solid Head box, is the Milbank Primed box. I have never seen a box, other than the Milbank Primed box, that did not have the Solid Head call-out.


The below photos are hard to explain since I can not post right over them. SO here goes nothing...

1. 1873, 1st Box - Yellow Milbank Primed, short case, 44/100 box
Of the only three boxes known to exist, all three boxes contained boxer primed cases, and no collector I have seen has said anything about folded case. I'd love to know. I have talked with one owner and of course, no way of knowing without destroying a case.

The Milbanked Primed cases were shorter than all other 44-40 cases.

2. 1874 to 1876, 2nd Box - Green Solid Head boxes
As can be seen here, from 1874 to 1876 (Giles & Shuey), this box calls out the Solid Head cases and are pre-1880.

I have compiled all of the information I can find, with photos, here
44-40 Cartridge History - Google Sheets

I check every lead I can to new information, I am teachable!!!

 

[Bryan Austin]

Bryan,

I pulled this up on my phone. From the Cartridge collecting forum. Those folks are really into it and have company documents. Early Pre-solid head box of 44/40 ammo and reference.
Remember that for UMC boxes produced post 1883 would denote “solid head” clearly stamped on the label.

Murph

Let me see what I acquired from those guys. I forget who right off (forgive me but I think Also Guy Hildebrand) but he sent me some of those UMC box label photos, cartridges with Orcutt primers

1. E Remington & Sons, reportedly 1877 with Solid Head cases (note exposed grease groove on bullet)
2. Post 1876 UMC, AC Hobbs Primer Patent Date
3. No Primer Patent Dates
4. 44-100 with Orcutt Primer, no mention if solid or folded head.

 

[starlord]

I just bought one from Cabelas to replace my more worn 6 1/2" .44 WCF. The new one has lots of nickel remaining and is in 44 Russian which I prefer. Also it has the shorter 4" barrel which I also prefer. I'll post pics after it arrives. I feel like I got a decent deal too.
For anyone interested in this old frontier war horse it goes up on Gunbroker tonight at 7:30. It will be a penny no reserve auction.

 

[BMur]

Destroying the case

Bryan,

That's the real problem. In order to confirm a case is folded head you'd have to cut the case. Even early boxes could actually contain newer cartridges. Impossible to tell or confirm since they were not marked in any way and the only way to tell is to cut the case or perhaps X-ray the case.

However, when we look at ledgers from the factory that clearly denote "Changed to solid head case"? both Winchester and UMC. 1880-1883 respectively? They must have changed from the earlier folded head case to the improved "solid head case".

If you're looking for "We changed our cases from folded head to solid head"? I don't think you'll find that information written down or it will be very difficult to find.

All You really need to do is find any evidence of a folded head case 44/40 Winchester cartridge. I think an X-ray would be the way to go. You find one, then you've proven a transition.

I personally see the transition from the ledger. "Changed to Solid Head Case".

Murph

 

[Bryan Austin]

However, when we look at ledgers from the factory that clearly denote "Changed to solid head case"? both Winchester and UMC. 1880-1883 respectively? They must have changed from the earlier folded head case to the improved "solid head case".

If you're looking for "We changed our cases from folded head to solid head"? I don't think you'll find that information written down or it will be very difficult to find.

All You really need to do is find any evidence of a folded head case 44/40 Winchester cartridge. I think an X-ray would be the way to go. You find one, then you've proven a transition.

I personally see the transition from the ledger. "Changed to Solid Head Case".

Murph

Ah yes, the ledgers, I keep forgetting about the ledgers. I can't always trust ledgers, but are certainly a good source of information.

Yeap, gonna take someone cutting open a $10,000 box of cases to find out for sure...lol...ain't gonna happen!!

Sometimes information on those ledgers are a bit late getting updated. Jotting down data and dates can get confusing when actually recording such data (I am guilty), so "catching up" on data can get dates incorrect or slightly off.

I stopped following the UMC box information a while back cause I got information overload then forgot about them. I even have them included in my on-line data, but not in depth.
44-40 Cartridge History - Google Sheets

Maybe we can get some good updates soon.

1. The attached photos is of a large pocket Western headstamped case.
2. Looking down into the case, one can see the large button and deep sides. This view in the photo is not seen correctly without the depth perception. However, the cut out shows details.

3. Of the unheadstamped cases I do have, they also have the large button on the inside, indicating they are not of the folded type. See last photo

 

[BMur]

Transition is proven.

Well Bryan,
I believe the original factory ledger since they were there when it happened. I believe based on that factory document along with the Winchester transition to "solid head" balloon pocket case in 1880. If there was no transition, why would they even mention it in the ledger? Why would they change the boxes to state: "Solid head case"? Something happened in 1880 and 1883 to Winchester and UMC cartridges.

I'd sure like to see one of those battlefield empty case pick-ups from the Little Big Horn in 44 WCF. Actually, I'd like to see them "ALL" to determine if they are legit to the battle. All you'd have to do is find one that is folded head. Since they've been shot you can look inside the case for the primer piece insert seen in photo 1. That would be proof positive.

Photo 1 is the transition from folded head centerfire to solid head centerfire. Notice the insert without a case crimp to hold it in place found on the Bennet primed cases?

Photo 2-3 are examples of non-head stamped pre-1884 44WCF cartridges. Notice the one on the left? Has a crushed primer? Strongly suggests it was once reloaded a very long time ago. The other two look original to me but no way to prove it and I'm not cutting them open in search of a folded head insert. They are very hard to find.

Murph

 

[Bryan Austin]

Well Bryan,
I believe the original factory ledger since they were there when it happened. I believe based on that factory document along with the Winchester transition to "solid head" balloon pocket case in 1880. If there was no transition, why would they even mention it in the ledger? Why would they change the boxes to state: "Solid head case"? Something happened in 1880 and 1883 to Winchester and UMC cartridges.

I'd sure like to see one of those battlefield empty case pick-ups from the Little Big Horn in 44 WCF. Actually, I'd like to see them "ALL" to determine if they are legit to the battle. All you'd have to do is find one that is folded head. Since they've been shot you can look inside the case for the primer piece insert seen in photo 1. That would be proof positive.

Photo 1 is the transition from folded head centerfire to solid head centerfire. Notice the insert without a case crimp to hold it in place found on the Bennet primed cases?

Photo 2-3 are examples of non-head stamped pre-1884 44WCF cartridges. Notice the one on the left? Has a crushed primer? Strongly suggests it was once reloaded a very long time ago. The other two look original to me but no way to prove it and I'm not cutting them open in search of a folded head insert. They are very hard to find.

Murph

Me too, I have been trying to track down those cases from the battlefield for 8 years. Dr Doug Scott doesn't really know where they are and every time I try to contact someone, I always get routed back to the same folks or emails go unanswered.

Oh and the cases, I was not sure if the insert could be seen with ease

Yes, I am familiar with the insert and is why I thought a folded head could be noted by the flatter dome at the flash hole.

My collection can be seen here: 44-40 Cartridge History - Google Sheets

It's not much of a collection but I also did the pressure testing with black powder with the unheadstamped cases. Found the the larger balloon pockets create much higher pressures than the solid head cases of modern times like Starline.

One of the last missing links I have to find is that of the folded head cases and those found on the battlefields.

I have some battle field information here: Chasing the 44-40 - Little Bighorn

Dr Scott has been a great help.