.38 Auto use in .38 Special

[David R]

I read everything again. The bulled of a super is .356. This may not be as accurate as the correct .357 bullet. That is an individual revolver thing.

Pressure wise, why mess with it?

David

 

[Bullet Bob]

I did the same thing over 10 years ago, and I've packed that box of .38 Supers around through three moves.

I called Wilson Combat earlier this year and ordered a .38 Super 1911. Problem solved.

If you're interested in learning more about the .38 ACP, here's an excellent site with more accurate information than you'll get from most gun writers:

38 Super

 

[Krogen]

I did the same thing over 10 years ago, and I've packed that box of .38 Supers around through three moves.

I called Wilson Combat earlier this year and ordered a .38 Super 1911. Problem solved.

If you're interested in learning more about the .38 ACP, here's an excellent site with more accurate information than you'll get from most gun writers:

38 Super

I like your style! My most recent case of cart before the horse or rather ammo before the gun was a .444 Marlin. I had .444 cases and dies sitting on the shelf being ignored. Then one day I spotted a nice early Marlin rifle at a gun show. A perfect use for those cases and dies, I reasoned (rationalized?).

 

[stiab]

If you're interested in learning more about the .38 ACP, here's an excellent site with more accurate information than you'll get from most gun writers:

That's a good link, thanks for posting it, but I disagree with him when he says: "At some point the standard .38 Super ammunition was watered down." That is based upon the old 1300 fps claim, but like most old ads those velocity numbers were overstated.

I have tested old and new 38 Super, and found the numbers are basically the same, including ammo that was issued to the FBI and OSS in the 1930s/40s. Even the linked author when he tested the old Super ammo did not get 1300 fps.

I have located some old 38 Auto ammo, and will be testing it this summer, and will update my 38 Super auto test with the results and post them here.

 

[SuperMan]

As stated above, some .38 Special chambers will and some will not chamber .38 ACP/.38 Super rounds. As one of the above posters mentioned Winchester brand ammo seem a little smaller than Remington and the others and will chamber in most .38/.357 revolvers.

As to the safety in doing, especially from a J-frame, TK Custom modifies J-frame cylinders to take 9mm and .38 Super with moon clips. S&W has made 9mm J-frame revolvers. I have had both and they shoot just fine. The one I currently have is a 649-1 .38 Special +P that has been rechambered to shoot 9mm and .38 Super and still shoots .38 Special just fine...

 

[sodacan]

I accidently purchased some rounds by mistake. They are described as '38 Auto (Not Super) 130 gr FMJ ammo. Loaded on 38 Super brass to 38 Auto pressures'. Can this round be used in my .38 Special? Thanks.

Maybe you can, maybe not. Why bother or take a chance? Sell the ammo, or just chalk it up to a lesson learned. You'll will always get a lot of good information here, plus a ton of opinions. Good luck.

 

[WC145]

As stated above, some .38 Special chambers will and some will not chamber .38 ACP/.38 Super rounds. As one of the above posters mentioned Winchester brand ammo seem a little smaller than Remington and the others and will chamber in most .38/.357 revolvers.

As to the safety in doing, especially from a J-frame, TK Custom modifies J-frame cylinders to take 9mm and .38 Super with moon clips. S&W has made 9mm J-frame revolvers. I have had both and they shoot just fine. The one I currently have is a 649-1 .38 Special +P that has been rechambered to shoot 9mm and .38 Super and still shoots .38 Special just fine...

I have a 360J that I had rechambered to accept 9mm, .38 Super, 9x23, etc. by Pinnacle about 6 years ago. The gunsmith, Mark Hartshorne recommends against using .38spl after the conversion because of case swelling and the potential for splitting as they'll fire form to the new chamber dimensions. My intent was to have a lightweight 9mm snubby so I don't shoot .38spl out of it. However, things change and right now my gun is back at Pinnacle titanium .38spl cylinder that I bought for it several years ago fitted so that I can swap it for the rechambered steel cylinder to carry/shoot .38spl if I feel like it.

I read everything again. The bulled of a super is .356. This may not be as accurate as the correct .357 bullet. That is an individual revolver thing.

David

That .001" size difference means more on paper than in actual use. I saw no appreciable difference in accuracy from my gun from shooting .38spl before being rechambered to shooting 9mm and .38 Super after. I've qualified with it on the MSP duty weapon course of fire numerous times shooting from 3 to 25 yards and used it to win an IDPA BUG match.

 

[JamesDriskell]

38 Special Firing 38 Super

Hi, I wanted to know a bit more in depth information on the 38 Special Firing 38 Super. I've done a lot of homework, and found out so far that 38 Super would reload in a 38 Special, and a 357 magnum. I realize it won't reload in all 38 so or 357 magnum, and not all brands would work. My question is, what velocity would you assume you could get, if you could fire it from a particular 38 Special? 357 magnum is around 1134 for 38 Super. Am I right to assume it would be nearly as high with the 38 Special?

My question is based around a revolver that will reload, and fire, the 38 Super from a 38 Special, and just to say this as truth, it is acceptable recoil and accuracy.

I've read that the chamber pressure can be around 34,00? But that it's actually more likely to be 22,00? I have to say, it's the smoothest shot I've ever fired, even though I don't intend to use a steady diet, this 4 inch barrel 38 Special fires and ejects with no issues.

I figure 22,00 on the pressure is not that bad, for a heat treated cylinder. Do I own a gem?

 

[DWalt]

I have fired .38 Super factory loads extensively in a variety of .38 Special and .357 revolvers without any issues. However, note that not all ammunition brands can be chambered in all revolvers. It’s a situation in which a minimum tolerance round will fit in a maximum tolerance chamber, but not vice versa. Note also that a .38 Super bullet is slightly undersize for a .38 Special barrel bore. If you want to try, and the cartridges fit OK, have at it. The .38 Super round fired from a revolver feels rather mild to me, nothing like shooting a .357. I have never chronographed MV from a revolver so I don’t know anything about that.

 

[Drm50]

Short version of story. 38acp and 38Super are same case, semi rimless and will not require moons, which 38 & 357s don’t have clearance for. Trusting unknown 38Super handloads to be 38acp level would be a risk I wouldn’t take. Bottom line don’t do it. I have never seen a 38 or 357 blow out from this but 99% of blown revolver cylinders I’ve seen were 38sp and resulted from bad handloads.

 

[TXBryan]

Would I shoot a 38 Auto in a 38 Special? No
Would I shoot a 38 Auto in a 38/44 sure but why waste it in a revolver when I could shoot in a 38 Super.

I am not recommending it, but I believe it will work if you have a long enough firing pin.

To me, it is a darn good reason to buy a 38 Super!

I ordered several hundred new brass cases from Starline years ago thinking I was ordering .38 Special. Must have been delirious as they sent me .38 Super - which, was apparently, what I ordered. My mistake (I make many).

I already had tons of correct diameter projectiles as we load for 9mm, and lots of suitable powders, it seemed the logical thing to do was to procure a .38 Super launcher. Which we did. Problem solved.

 

[smithra_66]

Check out Paul Harrell's recent video on this subject on Youtube. It will give you all your answers.

 

[rosewood]

Something many have probably not considered. In a revolver, I bet it takes more powder to reach the same pressure that you get in a semi-auto all else being equal. The pressure peak is still rising as that bullet passes the cylinder gap. I would venture to say test results would show a 38 ACP being fired in a 38 special would have a lower pressure peak than in a Semi-auto.

Also, it may not be a good idea for a steady diet, but shooting 10k to 15k over pressure in a 38 special isn't likely to blow up any well made revolver. It might beat the gun up and cause excessive wear, but if the engineers didn't make the gun to handle that much over pressure, they didn't do their job.

And I would argue any revolver that blew up was likely a result of a double charge or a grossly faster powder than what was supposed to be used. And or a bore obstruction.

Rosewood

 

[Hair Trigger]

I accidently purchased some rounds by mistake. They are described as '38 Auto (Not Super) 130 gr FMJ ammo. Loaded on 38 Super brass to 38 Auto pressures'. Can this round be used in my .38 Special? Thanks.

.38 Auto and .38 Super Auto brass is the same, dimensionally. The difference lies in the pressures they are loaded to. Max load .38 Super lies between a .38 Spl. +P and a .357 Magnum (closer to the +P).

And as to whether you could use it in your .38 Spl. ? Yes, at least once. If you revolver is chambered for .357 Magnum, it can tolerate the higher pressure. Other than length, the case dimensions are slightly different at the case mouth and the case web, plus the .38 Super uses a .355 and .356 diameter bullet, compared to .357 for the .38 Spl. Minor differences, though, so if you stick one in and it feeds, it will probably work. At least once. No matter how close the dimensions are between cartridge types, unless it's known historically that they are designed to be used in the same gun (.38Spl/.357M, .44Spl/.44M, etc.) I am not going to risk one of my guns, or maybe even my hands and face, to try something different.

NOTE: We are talking about .38 ACP, NOT SUPER.38 Auto, they are not the same!

As a stickler for correct terminology, I'd like to point out that it isn't .38ACP, or Super .38ACP. It's simply .38 Automatic or .38 Super Automatic. Just like .32 Auto and .45 Auto aren't .32ACP and .45 ACP. "ACP" refers to the gun that fires those cartridges, not the ammunition itself.

And I bet I did know that .38 Auto and .38 Super Auto are semi-rimmed and headspace on the rim. Once you've used .38 Super Comp brass to load for a .38 Super semiauto, you'll never buy the semi-rimmed stuff again.

Why not just take it back where you got it and get the correct ammo?

Most stores that sell ammo have signs saying "All ammunition sales are final". Know what you're buying before the purchase is made.

 

[Alk8944]

.38 Auto and .38 Super Auto brass is the same, dimensionally. The difference lies in the pressures they are loaded to. Max load .38 Super lies between a .38 Spl. +P and a .357 Magnum (closer to the +P).

And as to whether you could use it in your .38 Spl. ? Yes, at least once. If you revolver is chambered for .357 Magnum, it can tolerate the higher pressure. Other than length, the case dimensions are slightly different at the case mouth and the case web, plus the .38 Super uses a .355 and .356 diameter bullet, compared to .357 for the .38 Spl. Minor differences, though, so if you stick one in and it feeds, it will probably work. At least once. No matter how close the dimensions are between cartridge types, unless it's known historically that they are designed to be used in the same gun (.38Spl/.357M, .44Spl/.44M, etc.) I am not going to risk one of my guns, or maybe even my hands and face, to try something different.

As a stickler for correct terminology, I'd like to point out that it isn't .38ACP, or Super .38ACP. It's simply .38 Automatic or .38 Super Automatic. Just like .32 Auto and .45 Auto aren't .32ACP and .45 ACP. "ACP" refers to the gun that fires those cartridges, not the ammunition itself.

And I bet I did know that .38 Auto and .38 Super Auto are semi-rimmed and headspace on the rim. Once you've used .38 Super Comp brass to load for a .38 Super semiauto, you'll never buy the semi-rimmed stuff again.

Most stores that sell ammo have signs saying "All ammunition sales are final". Know what you're buying before the purchase is made.

You are being a "Stickler" over the wrong subject! For the two cartridges there are correct nomenclatures for both, and "popular names" that are not strictly correct. The 0riginal name for the .38 Auto is .38 ACP! John Browning designed and named it 122 years ago. Check contemporary references! The commonly referred to .38 Super was originally designated as .Super .38 Auto when Colt originally designed the cartridge in 1929, and their pistols are still marked "Colt Super .38 Auto". I defer to the company which designed the cartridge,obviously you do not understand that Colt has naming rights. So far as the ACP, or A.C.P. properly, if you simply look in any reloading manual you will find everyone referring to all of John Browning's cartridge designs, whether .25, .32, .380, .38 or .45, as ACP., as well as firearms manufacturers making guns in these calibers. The only exception I am aware of is the .38 Browning/9mm Browning used in the Model 1907. This was mostly used in European pistols designed by Browning.

 

[DWalt]

Early Colt .38 autopistols were intended for use with the .38 ACP round, as the Super .38 pistol did not yet exist. It was considerably more robust, as it was built on the M1911 design. Firing the later and more powerful .38 Super ammunition in any of the old original Colt .38 pistols can do irreparable damage to them, specifically to the slide (usually resulting in a crack in the wedge groove). I have seen many such damaged early Colts. That is the reason that current .38 Super headstamps include +P, as a warning that it must not be used in the old Colts. Generally, there is no problem in using .38 ACP ammunition in the Super .38 pistol, except that it produces a lower MV. While I no longer have any of the early Colt pistols, back when I did, I always handloaded for them to a level which was just adequate to allow reliable slide function.

 

[WR Moore]

I noticed a number of folks commenting on the alleged difference in maximum pressures between .38 Spl+P and .38 ACP. What many didn't consider is that just because the maximum pressure level is that high doesn't mean that's the pressure the factories load to. They're generally loading to a velocity spec below that pressure. Especially since most guns chambered for .38 ACP are antiques.

Once upon a time there were a slew of .38/9 mm chamberings that were functionally identical to the .38 ACP. Had a college buddy with one of those Astra 400s. Would eat anything vaguely .38 automaticish including .380, but had to be hand cycled for that one.

BTW, I've got a hard copy of the SAAMI pistol pressures and .38 ACP wasn't on them. Maybe they've got an obsolete cartridge listing somewhere.

 

[.38SuperMan]

I’ve not done this and probably won’t and wouldn’t recommend it but I have a convertible Ruger Blackhawk in 38/357/9mm. Reloading manuals publish specific high power loads for the Blackhawk and Contender. There’s a lot of extra metal in the Blackhawk and it’s designed for loads that aren’t safe in anything else. If I were to try it I’d test it in my Ruger. Out of curiosity I checked to see if my 38super handloads would fit in my 28-2 cylinder and the fit perfectly. Actually they fit like the gun was designed to shoot them.

I have 2 really fine 38 super 1911’s so I have no need to experiment and I’m basically chicken so I’m not doing this.

EDIT:

Per SAAMI, 9mm standard velocity is o35,000 psi, 9mm +p is 38,500 psi and 38 super +P is 36,500 psi. If the Blackhawk will handle 9mm +p it will easily handle 38 super +P. It also looks like 357 magnum will run at 35,000 psi in standard pressure loads. I doubt there’s much danger of blowing up a Blackhawk or Contender but don’t think it would be safe in a 38 special.

Actually my biggest fear would be splitting or blowing a case.

 

[SuperMan]

As some have said, when the original 1929 1911 came out it was called the SUPER .38...the caliber was .38 AUTO. The original velocity was bumped up from 1080 to 1170 fps and then in the early 1930s to 1300 fps. Colt stated at the time it was fine to shoot the 1300 fps loads in their 1903 Automatics but a few years later notified the ammunition companies that it wasn't such a good idea after all. Two different loads, original in brass cases and high speed in nickel cases came to be. Boxes were also marked for use in SUPER .38 guns only. It was basically the same situation as the .38 Special and .38-44 Hi-Velocity. Boxes weren't marked .38 Super till I believe the 1950s.

.38SuperMan...have you taken a feeler gauge and measured the headspace difference between the .38 Special/.357 Magnum case and the .38 Super case when loaded in the chambers? There is quite a bit of difference...

As to chamber pressure, it's all going to depend on whose load one uses. The Federal 115 at only 1160 fps is not going to have the same pressure as a CorBon 115 going 1450...

One of these days I have to get around to chronographing factory and handloads through my revolvers...

Bob

 

[DWalt]

During the early 1930s (1930 to 1935), the Remington ammunition catalogs listed only one cartridge which they called the “.38 Super Automatic Colt Pistol.” The “.38 Automatic Colt Pistol” cartridge name previously used in 1929 and earlier Remington catalogs had disappeared. In the 1936 Remington catalog, the .38 Automatic Colt Pistol cartridge re-appeared, alongside the .38 Super Automatic Colt Pistol cartridge. The reason was to restore the .38 ACP as the round for use in the early Colts, while the more powerful .38 Super ACP round was correct for the M1911 design Super .38 pistols.

It is definitely possible to handload the .38 Super with 130 grain bullets driven to a MV in the mid-1400s ft/sec range in the Super .38 pistol design. I have found that AA #5 is the best propellant to use for that purpose. Those loads I would not use in a .38 Special revolver.