J-Frames and 25yard qualifications

[biku324]

If one is confident that he/she can hit a man-sized target 100 yards away with the sidearm they use, uncertainty disappears. Confidence does have tactical value in the real world.

 

[rockquarry]

I was being a bit flippant but except for competition shooting it's not very useful - anyone can do it with practice but, except for bragging, why?

Large frame pistols and revolvers are easily shot on a distant target and it's nice to say that you did it but it's not any kind of a useful gun fighting skill. That's really what I meant. YMMV

I can't see a need to brag. However, any shooting skill improvement is just that, an improvement. Improvement helps at all distances and in all shooting disciplines, self-defense, competition, etc.

 

[K Frame Keith]

I qualified from 1982 to 1997 with my M49 and standard 158 grain LSWCs or, later, factory 158 grain +P LSWCHPs. Twenty-five yards was not a big problem for a reasonably competent shooter.

Not for everyone but it is reasonably possible. We qualified on the FBI Q target with five shot revolvers firing 10 rounds from the 25 yard line. Single action was permitted. Good luck.

 

[sigp220.45]

I was being a bit flippant but except for competition shooting it's not very useful - anyone can do it with practice but, except for bragging, why?

Large frame pistols and revolvers are easily shot on a distant target and it's nice to say that you did it but it's not any kind of a useful gun fighting skill. That's really what I meant. YMMV

That guy at the mall might disagree.

I regularly practice at 25 yards. If I can hit it at that range I can hit it closer. And yes, I can do it quickly.

I shoot every week at an indoor range. My target is almost always the only one at the 25. Some targets are as close as 6 feet from the shooter.

I’m convinced that most shooters won’t shoot at longer ranges because they can barely hit the target at much shorter ranges. At least close up they can look at their 12 inch pattern and say to themselves - that woulda kilt ‘em. Reeling back an unhit target from the 25 would hurt their feelings.

One guy asked why I shot way down there where “you can’t see the holes”. I told him I know where the holes are.

That said, thousands of people with zero marksmanship ability successfully shoot other people every year, sometimes with the gun held sideways!

 

[Dutch87]

I see nobody answered your question.

I'll try to help. Here's some info from earlier in the thread.

"This is not a beginner course! You will be required to demonstrate safety, familiarity, and accuracy. It is pass or fail.
– No holster needed
– All shooting from the ready position
– 50 rounds per firearm
– FBI Q target

– 24 rounds at 7 yards
– 14 rounds at 10 yards
– 6 rounds at 15 yards
– 6 rounds at 25 yards
For a total of 50 rounds. Must hit at least 40 rounds out of 50 (80%)"

I don't think it is timed fire.


FBI Training & Qualification Shooting Paper Target
Size 20" x 32"
2-tone gray
FBI-Q silhouette shooting target

Looks like the actual body width of silhouette inside is 12 inches.

Height 26 inches.

It appears that the rule is that any hit on the body is a hit.

Off the body is a miss.

That's the best I can understand it.

That's my understanding, yes!

 

[biku324]

Not for everyone but it is reasonably possible. We qualified on the FBI Q target with five shot revolvers firing 10 rounds from the 25 yard line. Single action was permitted. Good luck.

Our qualification courses (they changed a few times) did not permit single action revolver fire.

 

[Dutch87]

A J frame is mechanically as accurate as any other quality revolver, and more capable than most of us. It is, however, far less ergonomic than say a K38 (M14) or any other target sight equipped K,L, or N frame.

The sight radius is very short. Fixed sights are harder to see. The trigger weight is generally greater than that of a K frame because the internals are different and the geometry is less friendly. That greater trigger resistance is then transferred to a lighter gun, the worst of both worlds.

These are not insurmountable, but real. With my aging eyes, any firearm without a red dot is a lot harder to shoot well (under pressure, to a standard) than a firearm with a red dot. My EDC is a Glock 33, and when I first shot it for a qualification, I swapped to XS big dot sights ASAP. I have a G42 for specific reasons - same sight change right away.

Ammo. Wadcutters are a lot better than most folks perceive - with their shape they will do pretty well if you do your part. Carry standard velocity SWC for reloads; they will go into the chambers more easily. Is there a significant likelihood of a civilian self-defense shooting at more than 7-10 yards? Nope. Does that mean zero? Nope. If I were a cynic, I would suspect that either NJ adopted their LE standard due to laziness, or more likely, that they wanted to limit the number of people who can pass. It is what it is.

I have one J frame and have not carried it in ... several years, likely most of ten. It is, for me, a niche platform and not useful for general carry. YMMV.

My understanding is, what guns you can carry on your permit (in this state) vary by the judge who signed off on it.
In some places, 1 qualification = good to carry anything you own.

In others, you're only approved for what you can shoot/qualify with.
Current rumor is that for those ^ situations you appear to be limited to ~ 3 guns.

I'm of the mind that I'll probably choose a glock 42, a J-frame of some flavor, and a 1911 I own.


As you mention the XS big dot, I'm spoiled by the gold bead on my 1911, I'm a big big fan of a sight picture I can work with.
I'm actually mulling over the 360PD, and say the M&P340 (despite the fact that I'd prefer a hammer), due to the sight picture.

Being able to use .357 later on as I get more comfortable with J-frames is a theoretical bonus, but a good front sight out of the box is certainly nice!

 

[Dutch87]

I can't see a need to brag. However, any shooting skill improvement is just that, an improvement. Improvement helps at all distances and in all shooting disciplines, self-defense, competition, etc.

I will say for me personally, I do normally send the target out on the range (when shooting with the 1911).
At longer ranges it pushes the shooter to really get those fundamentals right - there's more distance to make trigger control/sight alignment levels readily apparent

Not for everyone but it is reasonably possible. We qualified on the FBI Q target with five shot revolvers firing 10 rounds from the 25 yard line. Single action was permitted. Good luck.

I'm super glad I started this topic and blown off the youtube comments sections!

While I kept reading (in threads on this board) that when viced down the J-frames are mechanically accurate, it's reassuring to hear that in the real world, non-Jerry Miculek/Bob-Munden shooters can make hits at that range.

 

[Dutch87]

That guy at the mall might disagree.

I regularly practice at 25 yards. If I can hit it at that range I can hit it closer. And yes, I can do it quickly.

I shoot every week at an indoor range. My target is almost always the only one at the 25. Some targets are as close as 6 feet from the shooter.

I’m convinced that most shooters won’t shoot at longer ranges because they can barely hit the target at much shorter ranges. At least close up they can look at their 12 inch pattern and say to themselves - that woulda kilt ‘em. Reeling back an unhit target from the 25 would hurt their feelings.

One guy asked why I shot way down there where “you can’t see the holes”. I told him I know where the holes are.

That said, thousands of people with zero marksmanship ability successfully shoot other people every year, sometimes with the gun held sideways!

I think at the Indiana mall incident, the 22 year old who ended the shooting fired his first shots at 40 yards right?

Statistics might say that we're much more likely, WAY more likely to be stuck in a 7-10 yard scenario, if god forbid we ever have to draw.

But if you do have a 1 in 1 million situation, I would feel more comfortable with at least being familiar with the POA/POI of a carry piece at longer ranges - and if the SA trigger lets me get better hits at 25 in my hands, I think it's worth considering.

 

[Dutch87]

I'm very thankful for everyone who has chimed in on this thread, if I had to give a "ranking", of where the guns stand?

1) 637 Performance center.
- Factory trigger job
- In the caliber I intend to shoot it in
- Good weight
- DA/SA
- Con: the front sight

2) 638
- Shrouded hammer, DA/SA
Con: the front sight

3) M&P340
- Big dot front sight
- Steel cylinder
- Rated for 357, so a steady diet of 38 should be very easy on the gun
con: DAO, not sure how I personally feel about it

4) 360PD
- DA/SA
- "so light you'll forget you're carrying it. Guns you can carry in anything, don't get left at home"
- Very good front sight
Con: titanium cylinder durability

 

[Der Verminator]

I vote for this.

I'm a one-trick pony.



It never gets left at home.......though it goes under the seat when I have to stop in at the post office.

 

[sigp220.45]

I'm very thankful for everyone who has chimed in on this thread, if I had to give a "ranking", of where the guns stand?

1) 637 Performance center.
- Factory trigger job
- In the caliber I intend to shoot it in
- Good weight
- DA/SA
- Con: the front sight

2) 638
- Shrouded hammer, DA/SA
Con: the front sight

3) M&P340
- Big dot front sight
- Steel cylinder
- Rated for 357, so a steady diet of 38 should be very easy on the gun
con: DAO, not sure how I personally feel about it

4) 360PD
- DA/SA
- "so light you'll forget you're carrying it. Guns you can carry in anything, don't get left at home"
- Very good front sight
Con: titanium cylinder durability

I’d go 1, 3, 2, 4. But I’d stop at 1.

 

[Dutch87]

I vote for this.

I'm a one-trick pony.



It never gets left at home.......though it goes under the seat when I have to stop in at the post office.

That's one great looking gun!

The no-HPs-allowed-when-carrying state where I live, all of us anticipate a situation where they declare a ton of places "gun free zones."
(And it would stay that way until challenged and brought to probably the circuit court level, because it's a one party rule state)

Benefit of a revolver:
- open cylinder
- eject rounds
(They will likely demand the gun is unloaded. Yes this state is like that.)
- lock in vehicle

 

[bill1917]

I was a probation/parole officer from 1977 to 1993. My department specified Colt or S&W revolver, 38 special or larger. I had (still have) a model 19, 4 inch, and a model 38 j frame bodyguard with shrouded hammer. I never had any difficulty qualifying on the b-27 target at ranges from 7 to 25 yards. My opinion, for what its worth, is that if you go to a 3 or 4 inch barrel, you might as well go up to a k frame and holster carry. To me the j frame's strength is pocket carry. One thing that hasn't been mentioned is carrying in an outer coat pocket. You can have your hand on the gun and no one can tell. No draw is necessary. If the situation goes bad you can sacrifice the coat and shoot through the pocket. The shrouded hammer is very unlikely to snag either when firing or drawing from the pocket.

 

[edl]

I would think the 640pro would be a good bet because of its sights. If you look at the FBI Q target, any hit in the white area count as a hit, and the size is quite generous, as shown by the image I attached. Given the shooting qualification that has been quoted, you need to get 40 out of 50 hits to pass. Given that standard, you could miss all of your 6 shots at 25 yards and 4 of your 6 shots at 15 yards and still qualify.

From what I understand, they begin the qualification shooting at 25 yards and work in. The psychological effect of this is designed to make you become unnerved as the target becomes closer and you see your long range shooting. This may make you jerk the trigger and fire for your remaining rounds and blow the course. From the looks of the times that I saw elsewhere, there is plenty of time.

– 24 rounds at 7 yards
– 14 rounds at 10 yards
– 6 rounds at 15 yards
– 6 rounds at 25 yards
For a total of 50 rounds. Must hit at least 40 rounds out of 50 (80%)"

 

[StrawHat]

If you see the holes in the target, you are looking at the wrong thing. You should be concentrating on the front sight.

Kevin

 

[ameridaddy]

….

2. Pocket Carry : plain clothes. Day shift. following a wanted felon via vehicles. Suspect suddenly stopped His vehicle, exited and started back toward my vehicle. I was seat belted in and attempted to reach my weapon in my front right pocket without success. The fast arrival of a marked unit and the appearance of an old street cop armed with a 12 gauge stopped the suspect.

This is just two "Incidents" in a 45 year career that helped turn my hair grey.

Jimmy, I ‘ve never had to draw from concealed carry, but your experience here confirmed my little voice is right when it says driving + pocket carry is a big NO.
Thanks for sharing that!

 

[scooter123]

J frame at 25 yards? Mount the Hogue 3 finger rubber grips, it will take the grip size up to the size of a K frame combat grip. BTW, my J frame is a 1961 flat latch model 36 and the original grips are about as big as a fat pencil. With the standard grips Rapid Fire is not possible, you have to re-grip after every single shot. Bad news is the Hogue grips won't fit in a normal pocket but I've found IWB to be superior to pocket carry. Those wanting to argue this point should sit in their car, buckle the seat belt, and try to draw from a pocket.

 

[madmikeb]

I'm another believer in the 640 Pro Series. IMHO it's the best J Smith has ever put out. All steel, fantastic sights, internal hammer, and cut for moon clips. If you are unloading and reloading constantly you will appreciate them. This is what I carry all summer long.

I do holster carry though. A Kramer belt scabbard. Very concealable and quick to draw from. With a good belt, you won't even know its there.

 

[gmiller0737]

For Ammo take a look @ Hornady's Critical Defense not a hollow point