Why not Elmer Keith that 38 special

[IAM Rand]

foolish insult doesnt even register on me,

Wasn't supposed to be an insult but, take it as you will. Don't think I said every 38 produced could handle the increased pressures of an uploaded 38 cartridge. Even people writing for what would be considered reputable magazines (Shooting Illustrated) are asking the same questions.

I pose one simple idea, one that has been posed by many other more talented reloaders than I, and all of the sudden it is sheer madness on my part. Guns blowing up, cats and dogs sleeping together, putting pineapple on pizza. What will the world come to.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Let's relax people, I don't want to have to shut this thread down because of bickering.

 

[ddixie884]

I have loaded a lot of 160gr lswc on 5gr Unique. This load will give you about 100 ft./s better velocity than most factory loads. This is Elmer and Skeeters light regular load. Anybody that shoots it normally prefers it to factory RN loads. It gives something over 900 FPS in a 4 inch barrel. Lyman number 45 gave 5.4 as max so I rounded down to 5gr. That was in 73 and probably 50 to 60% of all of my 38 special since then were that load. Try it ,you’ll like it.

 

[cowboy4evr]

My info source for 38spl +P and 38-44 loads using various powders and bullets comes from " Handloader Magazine " by Brian Pierce in the October 2016 issue . It includes the Lyman 358156 and the Keith 358429 among quite a few others. It's quite a lengthy article using different powders as well . It's worth the read ! Regards Paul

 

[rockquarry]

My info source for 38spl +P and 38-44 loads using various powders and bullets comes from " Handloader Magazine " by Brian Pierce in the October 2016 issue . It includes the Lyman 358156 and the Keith 358429 among quite a few others. It's quite a lengthy article using different powders as well . It's worth the read ! Regards Paul

I haven't seen that article in a while, but it may be the best yet on the subject. Lots of data.

 

[Forrest r]

My info source for 38spl +P and 38-44 loads using various powders and bullets comes from " Handloader Magazine " by Brian Pierce in the October 2016 issue . It includes the Lyman 358156 and the Keith 358429 among quite a few others. It's quite a lengthy article using different powders as well . It's worth the read ! Regards Paul

Yes that was a fantastic article!!!

All of the "max" loads listed in that article were 20,000psi or less.

I tested some of those load/bullet combo's in a 2" bbl'd snubnosed 38spl. My results (velocity wise) were comparable to what Pierce came up with.

Myself, I never hot rodded the 38spl's, shot countless 1000's of them. But always used 357mags when hotter/heavier loads were needed.

On a side note:
While heavy bullets have their place, a lite bullet does extremely well in the 38spls. I was playing around with that snubnosed 38spl and a p+ load of unique using a 115gr "indoor gallery bullet" pictured, the bullet on the right.

I was getting 1100fps with that 115gr bullet and a lot less recoil compared to the Pierce loads.

 

[Rock185]

cowboy4evr, Thanks for mention of that October '16 Handloader article. I dug out my copy. I hadn't paid any attention to the article on loading .38s at the time. Since I chronographed that .38 Spcl. Underwood recently, I was especially interested in the .38-44 data. Looks like the Underwood approximates some of the heavier loads Brian Pearce tested, though he tested in a 6 1/2" barrel and I used a 4"..

 

[rosewood]

cowboy4evr, Thanks for mention of that October '16 Handloader article. I dug out my copy. I hadn't paid any attention to the article on loading .38s at the time. Since I chronographed that .38 Spcl. Underwood recently, I was especially interested in the .38-44 data. Looks like the Underwood approximates some of the heavier loads Brian Pearce tested, though he tested in a 6 1/2" barrel and I used a 4"..

Anyone know of this article is available online. Tks

 

[alwslate]

Anyone know of this article is available online. Tks

Back issues of Handloader magazine can be ordered online or over the phone from the publisher.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Back issues of Handloader magazine can be ordered online or over the phone from the publisher.

Yes they are.

Here is the link: Issues | Handloader Magazine

 

[lppd4]

I just don’t get trying to push any handgun bullets faster than available factory loads. My thoughts are that Winchester/Remington/Federal and others have full time engineers on their payroll and have probably forgot more than I’ll ever know. And I have loaded tens of thousands of rounds in 45 years of reloading. They have much more sophisticated equipment to measure pressure velocities accuracy and there is a wide variety of loads a readily an available. I stick to practice rounds for my loads and work on my marksmanship with an occasional moderate load thrown in there. I have never loaded handgun rounds to max velocities and doubt I ever will just don’t see the need.

 

[IAM Rand]

My thoughts are that Winchester/Remington/Federal and others have full time engineers on their payroll and have probably forgot more than I’ll ever know.

And they also have lawyers that tell them, "We don't want to get a law suit, how can we load them so that they are safe."

Don't you think that they back it off a little or maybe alot to "keep it safe." Especially with the new pistols they make. If you load your own you know your own. I am not saying you have to get crazy but, I think hand loaders can do better.

 

[lppd4]

And they also have lawyers that tell them, "We don't want to get a law suit, how can we load them so that they are safe."

Don't you think that they back it off a little or maybe alot to "keep it safe." Especially with the new pistols they make. If you load your own you know your own. I am not saying you have to get crazy but, I think hand loaders can do better.

Good point

 

[reddog81]

And they also have lawyers that tell them, "We don't want to get a law suit, how can we load them so that they are safe."

Don't you think that they back it off a little or maybe alot to "keep it safe." Especially with the new pistols they make. If you load your own you know your own. I am not saying you have to get crazy but, I think hand loaders can do better.

Did their lawyers tell you this?

 

[rockquarry]

Did their lawyers tell you this?

The "lawyer" excuse, reason, solution, etc. seems to surface when something more logical and with more evidence doesn't. Erroneous conventional wisdom at it's best. There may be a good reason for something being done the way it's done that doesn't involve lawyers. I'm not a lawyer.

 

[smithra_66]

Why not use a 357?

If I need a more powerful round I’d rather move up a cartridge IMO. There’s really no downside.

I've already answered that in this thread. With certain long bullets like the Keith 173, they don't fit in magnum brass.

You HAVE to use Special brass in certain guns like N frames with that bullet, and there is nothing unsafe about it.

Elmer Keith was doing this in the 1930s.

 

[smithra_66]

I just don’t get trying to push any handgun bullets faster than available factory loads. My thoughts are that Winchester/Remington/Federal and others have full time engineers on their payroll and have probably forgot more than I’ll ever know. And I have loaded tens of thousands of rounds in 45 years of reloading. They have much more sophisticated equipment to measure pressure velocities accuracy and there is a wide variety of loads a readily an available. I stick to practice rounds for my loads and work on my marksmanship with an occasional moderate load thrown in there. I have never loaded handgun rounds to max velocities and doubt I ever will just don’t see the need.

We've been through this too, on this thread.

Certain calibers like 38 special and 45 Colt were developed prior to modern smokeless powders and associated pressures.

SAAMI specs keep them loaded WAAAY below their safe potential because there are many old guns still in circulation design for the pressures these cartridges made circa 1900, not what they could make circa 2023.

 

[smithra_66]

If you go back to my original supposition that gun makers are still making the 38 special and that it is still a relevant firearm, why not make it even more relevant. Elmer pushed the envelope in the 38. The only reason the 357 came about was that they didn't want people to load the more powerful 38 into a gun that wasn't designed to shoot the more powerful round (specifically the 38-44). The cartridge is shorter so that you can load a heaver round into it like the Keith 169-173 gr semi-wadcutter.

Somehow I have spoken heresy here and that I am encouraging people to harm themselves by loading the 38 to such a level that they would blow up their 38 special. My original supposition was that the newly manufacturers are making 38s to a point that they could handle a greater velocity round and keeping the 38 even more relevant.

Sigh, I guess I am just a radical.

This is quite common. People can't wrap their head around the fact that many calibers are downloaded by SAAMI purposely.

The 38 special is a little pipsqueak. The 357 Magnum is a fire breathing dragon. In reality, they are 135 thousands different in length. How could one be that much less powerful?

They aren't able to separate CARTRIDGE POTENTIAL vs. gun strength, the era in which it was designed, and firearms in the wild that shoot it.

The 45 Colt is more powerful than the 44 Mag. NOT in SAAMI spec that you can buy off the shelf, but to a handloader that is properly equipped with a strong gun.

The 38 Special is MUCH more powerful than the 9mm. NOT in SAAMI spec that you can buy off the shelf, but to a handloader that is properly equipped with a strong gun.

It's just physics. But again, a lot of people can't keep SAAMI / Factory loads separate from CARTRIDGE POTENTIAL.

No one in their right mind would look at a 9mm side by side with a 38 special and think the 9mm is more powerful. It's just that the factories load 9mm to 100% of its potential. The 38 is loaded to 50-60% of its potential! A handloader can unlock 100% of its potential.

SAAMI specs condition us to keep a hierarchy of cartridges in our heads, but it is many times separate from the full potential of those cartridges for various reasons!

 

[rosewood]

This is quite common. People can't wrap their head around the fact that many calibers are downloaded by SAAMI purposely.

The 38 special is a little pipsqueak. The 357 Magnum is a fire breathing dragon. In reality, they are 135 thousands different in length. How could one be that much less powerful?

They aren't able to separate CARTRIDGE POTENTIAL vs. gun strength, the era in which it was designed, and firearms in the wild that shoot it.

The 45 Colt is more powerful than the 44 Mag. NOT in SAAMI spec that you can buy off the shelf, but to a handloader that is properly equipped with a strong gun.

The 38 Special is MUCH more powerful than the 9mm. NOT in SAAMI spec that you can buy off the shelf, but to a handloader that is properly equipped with a strong gun.

It's just physics. But again, a lot of people can't keep SAAMI / Factory loads separate from CARTRIDGE POTENTIAL.

No one in their right mind would look at a 9mm side by side with a 38 special and think the 9mm is more powerful. It's just that the factories load 9mm to 100% of its potential. The 38 is loaded to 50-60% of its potential! A handloader can unlock 100% of its potential.

SAAMI specs condition us to keep a hierarchy of cartridges in our heads, but it is many times separate from the full potential of those cartridges!

Well said!

For those of use that understand physics and loading and are confident in our abilities and experiences, we can experiment and enjoy loading. We can push the limits to max potential and be safe. For those that are ignorant of physics and logical deduction, they are best to stick with SAAMI and factory loaded ammo for their own safety and others.

If you can't comprehend that 10 grains of H110 is less powerful than 5 grains of Bullseye, you best stick to factory fodder.

Rosewood

 

[IAM Rand]

In reality, they are 135 thousands different in length.

Can you tell me why they lengthened the case that amount and called it 357 magnum? That is the answer to all.