A CCW curiosity question

[Krogen]

For my defense needs, Simple simple simple is best. KISS. Iron sights and no safety on the pistol. Draw, point, pull, bang. Knowing me, I'd be hunting for a dot and not flip off the safety. if I did otherwise.

With that said, I shoot red dots in Bullseye and plate matches. I do better with red dots in those controlled environments. So I see their advantages. I know full well about the so-called "C-more Search." That gums up my times on occasion. Of course, it's not life threatening as it would be in a defense situation.

I can also understand with training, red dots are useful for defense situations. But I'm just one of the masses; for me simple is best for defense.

 

[OKFC05]

What is your age? I learned iron sights 60+ years ago. I learned Gunsite about 35 years ago and was more or less taught to teach it to Marines. Back then I was fairly quick with my draw and accuracy was pretty good. Now at 72, I will stick with what I know.

As you guessed, I am also well past 70 and no longer a match director or active in major matches. Our attitudes are similar, and I encourage people interested in optics to try before buying and see if they really want to expend the money and effort to get good with them, or are they just hoping to buy a magic talisman.

 

[Super Trucker]

Big pockets??

Most days I wear cargo pants or shorts, but I've had that gun in dress pants with altered pockets occasionally.

My BUG is usually a J-Frame but sometimes I'll drop the shield into my front pocket.
If you don't wear skinny jeans and practice drawing, it isn't hard to do.

The "altered pockets" I've had done are to make them deeper, it doesn't change the outside appearance. The cost is minimal. I have the ladies at the local leather shop (motorcycle jackets/vests/chaps) do the alterations.

 

[Dump1567]

I'm a gun guy and carry guns with both. I'm more accurate with an RDS (especially at distance). At close range, it will probably be more of index shooting or flash sight picture.

One of the best optics I've found to help acquire the dot is the Holosun HS507C-X2 Pistol Red Dot Sight - ACSS® Vulcan® Reticle. There's a large outer ring that can help guide my eye to the reticle if I don't have a perfect draw.

The thing with an RDS is training. You need to train to pick-up the dot. Once I put in that work, I saw the advantages.

I don't think your average person will put in the work. And probably won't even find the dot on the draw. So, it's really up to the end user what they get out of it. And if you listen to Ken Hackathorn who's trained with an RDS, he's still not a convert.

But there are times when I don't want to carry an RDS pistol. And don't.

Everyone needs to go put in the work and see if an RDS fits there carry life style.

Here's a good read on the subject.

Results of a 4 Year Handgun Red Dot Study by Sage Dynamics
Results of a 4 Year Handgun Red Dot Study by Sage Dynamics | Locked Back Training

In short, quality modern red dots are durable, handgun mounted red dots allow the shooter's focal point to remain on target, and handgun mounted red dots drastically improve accuracy.

 

[WR Moore]

I've seen one point brought up that needs a comment: distance of shooting events. BTW, if you look at the dot and see a bunch of grapes, go see an opthalmologist or optometrist. You need some vision correction.

There is a valid data base of private citizen shootings. The average distance is 5 yards. Down somewhat from the typical LE distance of 6-7 yards cited in the FBi UCR. The extremes are 2 yards and 27 yards with 3 rounds typically resolving the problem with one aggressor.

At my age, my eyes will still let me deal with 5-7 yard problems so long as the front sight has contrast with the target. ie stainless front sight or white dots on the sights. Yes, a tritium insert with the white circle around the lens works too. The problem comes beyond that and the cost of a miss can be catastrophic.

A long time ago I spent a lot of time researching homicides/shooting. Back in them thar days, Per the UCR stats, at 25 yards, LE won 90% of their shootings, at 3 yards they lost 90% of their shootings, they broke even at 7 yards. Why the disparity at close range? The bad guys/girls knew there was gonna be a shooting and the officer didn't. Action beats reaction. As private citizens, we should be looking to avoid trouble, not approach it.

Post modern technique of the handgun, per the 2015 NYPD Firearms Discharge Report, 74% of their shootings were from 11 feet and beyond, 54% from 15 feet and beyond. FWIW, the report triggered a memory of a study by OPOTA of ~7000 video taped shoot house behavior during their pass/fail exercise. Despite exlusive training on 2 hand Weaver stance, at ranges 4 yards and under, everyone fired one handed. At ranges over 4 yards everyone fired isosceles. OPOTA changed their training to reflect reality.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

In an all out draw snd shoot situation I’m going to point my weapon at the threat and pull the trigger till the problem is solved.I doubt anything I add to my gun will help that. Practicing for such an event would.. skill trumps gadgets every time. Unless your name is Bond.

Add on Doodads won't help.........I agree with you.

 

[dave1918a2]

It seems to Me that You are paying far to much attention to articles in magazines and on Youtube. A lot of these articles I have watched and read seem to have been written by sales reps, not real gunnies. The best thing You can do is try what ever You want and then decide which trips Your trigger.

 

[Dump1567]

One thing I forgot to add.

I can still see a red dot if I'm not wearing my glasses (knocked-off in a fight or whatever). I can't really see a front sight without them.

 

[LostintheOzone]

All I can do is add my opinion, which is worth what you paid for it.

I have dots on a pistol and a revolver. They work fine and in some cases improve my accuracy at ranges beyond 7 yds.

I don't however practice with a timer with a draw from a concealed holster and score my hits. So I can't say which is faster. I have read that with a lot of practice, the times can be very close, using a dot. I think that's the key here.

I don't have a dot on a carry pistol. My feeling is I don't really need one at 7 yds. or even 15 for that matter. Of course people like the latest tech and eventually incorporate it into their training and gear. If it helps a shooter in any way I'm all for it.

Here's a discussion with Massad Ayoob on this subject. He's an old pfart like many of us here and makes some good points.

Massad Ayoob - Red Dot Sights on Carry Guns? Pros and Cons of Carry Optics - Critical Mas EP46 - YouTube

 

[hardluk1]

If your looking for iron sights for the majority of your defensive needs You need way more practice time . Same for a dot optic . I do not carry a dot optic but we have one on a 22/45 and a m&p compact 4" just to keep use sharp as I might need a dot optic one day .. But that's not today .

Just learn how to shoot with a target focus not a sight focus and at most allow your self to flash or glance over your sights or slide to be sure it pointing at the target's center of mass . With time you will see your handguns is on target in your peripheral vision and you can still maintain defensive group size at 15 yards . For me thats a 4w x6.5h area at 15 yards as quickly as this ole dog can pull the trigger .

I also learned do to astigmatism I see green dot far better than red ,, well a green circle dot far better then red .

On rain days or any ole bad weather I can use a airsoft version of a my CC handgun out to 10 yards in my basement for draw and fire 2 to the chest and one to the head -Mozambique Drill No recoil but clearing my normal CC holster for the first shots pretty much the same along with pellet impact of other shots just no amount of recoil.

 

[AJ]

How many here have heard shots fired in anger at them?

How many here have draw a gun on someone with the thoughts of defending themselves or others?

 

[LostintheOzone]

How many here have heard shots fired in anger at them?

How many here have draw a gun on someone with the thoughts of defending themselves or others?

Needs a poll.

Thankfully, after having a carry for 32 years I can say zero. A few times I was within a second of pulling and shooting someone but managed to avoid it. The ultimate challenge, for me anyway. I have carry insurance and try to keep a cool head as everyone should.

I also have to say both times it was inside of 7 yds.

I haven't lived in a metro area for 28 years.

 

[Old cop]

How many here have heard shots fired in anger at them?

How many here have draw a gun on someone with the thoughts of defending themselves or others?

Over the course of my 30 yrs it happened three times & all while armed w/an issued thirty-eight revolver. Reloaded my Colt DS w/a speedloader while under fire in ‘74, and today @ 6:10 PM was the anniversary of that one event.

 

[Ingramite]

Nope, thanks anyway but I'm good.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

I think that it is relatively reasonable to ...

Are there any studies that have been conducted that can validate the effectiveness/speed of engaging a threat while under stress?

Thanks for trying to address this curiosity.

I highly recommend Gunsite Academy, Thunder Mountain and other professional training.

Professional Training takes your skillset to a higher level because you want every advantage in case you are involved in a deadly threat situation. And you not get to pick when the gunfight occurs.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

At SD distances, I suspect a gun without any kind of sights or even rifling in the barrel would suffice most of the time.

But definitely no optics for me.

We all know at SD Distances no one is 100% spot on. I am familiar with one shootout, cop versus bad guy, at four feet. All misses, cop pistol whips bad guy to end it.

In the "fight or flight" response. Five things can happen between fight and flight. Such as begging, negotiating, etc, etc. Most good citizens are already a step behind because the bad guy is calling the shots, no pun intended.

Bad guy who might have done a dozen, two dozen armed robberies, is pretty good at it from practice. How many people have been a victim of a Armed Robbery before? So another advantage for a bad guy. What about a male/female arm robbery team?

 

[petepeterson]

How many here have heard shots fired in anger at them?

How many here have draw a gun on someone with the thoughts of defending themselves or others?

Both. Are you suggesting those that vote "yes" are the only ones who should have an opinion?

 

[AJ]

Both. Are you suggesting those that vote "yes" are the only ones who should have an opinion?

Not necessarily. But having been there and done that it does taint your vision a tad. Most of our brethren here have not been and their experience comes from what they read and competition. Both are good, some of the folks who write may have some factual backing in the subject. Facing a bad guy with a weapon is quite a bit different than a paper target that does not shoot back. Stress levels are very different. Usually no time to think just react. Get your mindset right and train, train, train.........and then fall back on your training when the time comes.

 

[Skeptic 9c]

The Red Dot Sight allows a return to target focused shooting, aka all sorts of names. I learned "Quick Kill" in the US Army, c 1972.

You look at the target, not at sights. This makes many people GASP in horror. The RDS is just a excuse for using an ancient and honorable technique that achieved it's peak in WW2. (Lousy handgun sights were the standard in such ancient times.)

Geoff
Who has been around awhile.

 

[Data]

People will always default to their level of training. Skillset matters, among other related components. However, I think the Pistol Optic (RDS / Laser) is here to stay. For some (those with no experience or those without training), it might be a night and day difference, and for others (trained) it's just icing on the cake. As for myself, I don't see it as a bad thing. I have both, but very seldom carry them on a semi or revolver.