A CCW curiosity question

[Data]

I highly recommend Gunsite Academy, Thunder Mountain and other professional training.

Professional Training takes your skillset to a higher level because you want every advantage in case you are involved in a deadly threat situation. And you not get to pick when the gunfight occurs.

I think you mean "Thunder Ranch" instead of Thunder Mountain.

 

[M29since14]

What “hard core users” and guys who can carry the weapon on a sturdy duty belt that aids fast and uniform presentation has little to nothing to do with how I use a pistol. My experience is that red dot sights definitely help me and my older eyes with precision shooting but they are not something I want on my defensive pistols, which I want to be as small and lightweight as practical.

 

[Ameshawki]

I have exactly one pistol with an RDS, a full size Beretta APX. It's my second attempt at RDS. My first was a Glock 45 and I just couldn't get dialed in. Second time is going better. Possibly because the gun fits me better. I go back and forth on Glocks.

None of my carry rotation has an RDS. More often than not I have a 638 in my front pocket. Not very tactical. Not what the cool kids are using. But I try to keep my life simple. If it's not the 638 it's a gen 1 Shield with Apex trigger and big dot sight.

 

[Brian Parrish]

Not necessarily. But having been there and done that it does taint your vision a tad. Most of our brethren here have not been and their experience comes from what they read and competition. Both are good, some of the folks who write may have some factual backing in the subject. Facing a bad guy with a weapon is quite a bit different than a paper target that does not shoot back. Stress levels are very different. Usually no time to think just react. Get your mindset right and train, train, train.........and then fall back on your training when the time comes.

Good morning AJ!
I always enjoy and appreciate your contribution.
I have seen you make the "been there" comment before. There is a logical problem, because it is easy to show that such participation does not confer authority to that unique perspective. Certainly, people on the other side of a debate do not accept perspective as a decisive argument in itself. I agree wholeheartedly with your statement above.

On our thread here, which I have enjoyed, no one has yet mentioned what is supposed to be the decisive argument in the question, that the optic allows one to focus directly on the threat instead of the front sight under stress. It is thought that the stress response prevents front sight focus. Obviously with training we now know that's not necessarily true, at least with certain individuals. We also know from the streets that the lawmen with their optic equipped handguns are still spraying rounds all over the jurisdiction. Watching fifty or sixty badge cam videos does not inspire confidence in lawmen. The folks starring in those videos are just like all the rest of our fine neighbors, people who needed a job and the police department was hiring. Their training has enabled them to empty three 17-round magazines with no effect. I cannot say I will do better until the time comes, but I do work hard to try to do better when/if that time, God forbid, does come.

Watch the data to see if the RDS improves the hit rate, or if officer survival improves or if crime rate improves. Right now, the data set is small.

-A gunfight is more fight than gun.
-Skills not gear.

Kind regards AJ and everyone!
BrianD

 

[Data]

Good morning AJ!
I always enjoy and appreciate your contribution.
I have seen you make the "been there" comment before. There is a logical problem, because it is easy to show that such participation does not confer authority to that unique perspective. Certainly, people on the other side of a debate do not accept perspective as a decisive argument in itself. I agree wholeheartedly with your statement above.

On our thread here, which I have enjoyed, no one has yet mentioned what is supposed to be the decisive argument in the question, that the optic allows one to focus directly on the threat instead of the front sight under stress. It is thought that the stress response prevents front sight focus. Obviously with training we now know that's not necessarily true, at least with certain individuals. We also know from the streets that the lawmen with their optic equipped handguns are still spraying rounds all over the jurisdiction. Watching fifty or sixty badge cam videos does not inspire confidence in lawmen. The folks starring in those videos are just like all the rest of our fine neighbors, people who needed a job and the police department was hiring. Their training has enabled them to empty three 17-round magazines with no effect. I cannot say I will do better until the time comes, but I do work hard to try to do better when/if that time, God forbid, does come.

Watch the data to see if the RDS improves the hit rate, or if officer survival improves or if crime rate improves. Right now, the data set is small.

-A gunfight is more fight than gun.
-Skills not gear.

Kind regards AJ and everyone!
BrianD

Well said! ;-)

 

[sigp220.45]

How many here have heard shots fired in anger at them?

How many here have draw a gun on someone with the thoughts of defending themselves or others?

Yes to both, many times over.

I’m a recent convert to the red dot. At 64 I don’t think I’m too old to learn new things. I hope I never get to that point.

 

[AJ]

At 64 I don’t think I’m too old to learn new things. I hope I never get to that point.

We are never t old to learn things, no matter what your age. Heck, I am 72 and I learn new stuff all the time.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

The more gadgets and gizmos you add to your gear the more you come to rely on gadgets and gizmos, and the more likely it becomes that your gadgets and gizmos won't work when needed the most.

Batteries not included, of course.

 

[LostintheOzone]

Good morning AJ!
I always enjoy and appreciate your contribution.
I have seen you make the "been there" comment before. There is a logical problem, because it is easy to show that such participation does not confer authority to that unique perspective. Certainly, people on the other side of a debate do not accept perspective as a decisive argument in itself. I agree wholeheartedly with your statement above.

On our thread here, which I have enjoyed, no one has yet mentioned what is supposed to be the decisive argument in the question, that the optic allows one to focus directly on the threat instead of the front sight under stress. It is thought that the stress response prevents front sight focus. Obviously with training we now know that's not necessarily true, at least with certain individuals. We also know from the streets that the lawmen with their optic equipped handguns are still spraying rounds all over the jurisdiction. Watching fifty or sixty badge cam videos does not inspire confidence in lawmen. The folks starring in those videos are just like all the rest of our fine neighbors, people who needed a job and the police department was hiring. Their training has enabled them to empty three 17-round magazines with no effect. I cannot say I will do better until the time comes, but I do work hard to try to do better when/if that time, God forbid, does come.

Watch the data to see if the RDS improves the hit rate, or if officer survival improves or if crime rate improves. Right now, the data set is small.

-A gunfight is more fight than gun.
-Skills not gear.

Kind regards AJ and everyone!
BrianD

The dot eliminates the focus on the front sight. But then a new shooter who has never focused on a front sight is now focusing on a dot. That just replaces a front sight IMO.

I was never trained to use sights on anything but a rifle. Scopes, irons, whatever, on a rifle. I've spent a great amount of time and money learning to shoot without focusing on sights with a shotgun. I know some pretty good shooting can be done without sights. Given that a target moving at 42 mph, launched 50' from the shooter can be hit without aiming. Think about that for a second. That is 100% target focus. The bead at the end of the barrel is not a focus and not consciously seen. It isn't a sight anyway because there isn't anything but your eye to act as a rear sight like a pistol or rifle.

My best guess here is you might want to reconsider how you go about training for SD with a pistol. Dot or irons won't help. Target focus is the key.

 

[Brian Parrish]

Jeff Cooper

The more gadgets and gizmos you add to your gear the more you come to rely on gadgets and gizmos, and the more likely it becomes that your gadgets and gizmos won't work when needed the most.

Batteries not included, of course.

I feel the sentiment behind what you are saying. Jeff Cooper made a reference to this, though I cannot remember enough to quote him. As the shooters came through for training, he saw the gizmos fail again and again, not always, but often enough and sometimes at the worst possible times.

I have an Aimpoint scope, red dot, on my carbine and I like it, but the battery does go out at the most inopportune times. My scope mount, built by my gunsmith allows me to move to the irons immediately.

I looked into this question and found that the young men who use these systems are able to adapt and improvise when the thing doesn't glow. They look through it like a ghost ring. It requires a higher front sight but it works. I find myself in agreement with Mas Ayoob in his video about this made for the Wilson Combat Youtube Channel.
(youtube.com/watch?v=apILD12giac )
He said that these things are no longer in their infancy, but they are in their adolescence. If you watch the video, I would really enjoy any of your comments regarding especially the advantages section which begins around minute 3:00.

Kind Regards,
BrianD

 

[Pisgah]

I have had two shots fired at me in anger, and I responded with one; he survived the wound that stopped him, and I aged 10 years in half a second.

I don't remember seeing any sights at all.

 

[AJ]

How many people honestly carry a concealed weapon with either optics/RDS? And if you do how do you carry them? Shoulder holster, IWB, OWB, pocket or what? 100% of the folks that I know that carry concealed weapons in my area are carrying a bare bones gun, mostly in pockets.

A lot of the folks here that have responded that are touting the optics/RDS and discussing holsters on belts and using them in competition. Where there is no need to conceal the weapon. A lot of these folks say that on their concealed weapons they have no optics/RDS.

Also one thing that I noticed when I went back are reread the posts on this thread. The question is about concealed weapons, not defensive weapons. I carry a concealed weapon on me, I have defensive weapons in my house. I do not carry my night stand gun around or my shotgun under the bed.

 

[Super Trucker]

How many people honestly carry a concealed weapon with either optics/RDS? And if you do how do you carry them? Shoulder holster, IWB, OWB, pocket or what? 100% of the folks that I know that carry concealed weapons in my area are carrying a bare bones gun, mostly in pockets.



A lot of the folks here that have responded that are touting the optics/RDS and discussing holsters on belts and using them in competition. Where there is no need to conceal the weapon. A lot of these folks say that on their concealed weapons they have no optics/RDS.



Also one thing that I noticed when I went back are reread the posts on this thread. The question is about concealed weapons, not defensive weapons. I carry a concealed weapon on me, I have defensive weapons in my house. I do not carry my night stand gun around or my shotgun under the bed.

Buy an Ares gear, aegis elite belt and carry whatever you want. I can wear long pants or shorts, tee shirts or button up, it doesn't matter. The 1.5" belt carries the weight.

My belt edc is an original full size M&P with Trijicon type 2 RMR 06, streamlight TLR 2 HLG and suppressor height sights. This is on my hip every time I leave home (actually leave as in away from the property). If wearing a suit I swap the frame of the gun for one without a light due to not finding an IWB that will hold that light but the RDS is always on the belt gun.
We have already discussed my BUG.

I don't live in Hooterville (not saying you do, just pointing out why I do what I do) so I carry a tool that I feel will help get me home everyday. I live 20 minutes from Detroit and when I was still driving, spent many days in Detroit.

ETA: ask yourself why companies make holsters for guns with RDS if nobody uses them. The pocket holster I discussed above is an Alabama holster, pocket holster for the shield plus with RDS. If I were the only one buying that type product, it would require me asking for a one off custom holster. They have it on their site for anyone to order.

 

[Brian Parrish]

How many people honestly carry a concealed weapon with either optics/RDS? And if you do how do you carry them? Shoulder holster, IWB, OWB, pocket or what? 100% of the folks that I know that carry concealed weapons in my area are carrying a bare bones gun, mostly in pockets.

A lot of the folks here that have responded that are touting the optics/RDS and discussing holsters on belts and using them in competition. Where there is no need to conceal the weapon. A lot of these folks say that on their concealed weapons they have no optics/RDS.

Also one thing that I noticed when I went back are reread the posts on this thread. The question is about concealed weapons, not defensive weapons. I carry a concealed weapon on me, I have defensive weapons in my house. I do not carry my night stand gun around or my shotgun under the bed.

Ayoob addresses this. Certainly the YouTube Influencers are doing it. I remember a discussion on another forum where a group went together to a restaurant after a competition and nobody carried their race gun. However, about half the group had a "carry optic" and about half had smaller guns including pocket guns without optics like you would expect.
Some say it is just a fad.
Others say it is the future.

 

[AJ]

If someone was to wear what you describe here in Florida they would stick out like a sore thumb. The light shirts or t-shirts we wear just won't do the trick. Even folks that wear suits do not really wear them outside. I could not wear any gun in a holster on a belt without it showing. Since most folks wear shorts ankle holsters are out. Our temps this last summer averaged over 90 degrees and some days almost 100. That you can do so, I almost feel lucky for you. My preferred carry is an M1911. I did so in Calif. when stationed in Long Beach. I carried in a soft IWB holster in the small of my back. I wore Woodland pattern Utilities and these covered the gun when standing, could not lean over or the grip was exposed, and driving was murder unless you took the pistol out and put it on the seat or on a console.

Sorry to hear that you live near Detroit. I have lived in and around several big cities when in the service. Was glad to be able to come back to where I grew up in a small town. But now that it has quadrupled in size since I retired 30 years ago, I am ready to move. We have some bad areas now, and I stay out of them for the most part. If I have to go into those areas I carry my BUG (My Son-In-Law, who is a Deputy Sheriff).

No need for the vehicle pictured below here yet. However, maybe in Detroit.....

 

[AJ]

I feel the sentiment behind what you are saying. Jeff Cooper made a reference to this, though I cannot remember enough to quote him. As the shooters came through for training, he saw the gizmos fail again and again, not always, but often enough and sometimes at the worst possible times.

I have an Aimpoint scope, red dot, on my carbine and I like it, but the battery does go out at the most inopportune times. My scope mount, built by my gunsmith allows me to move to the irons immediately.

I looked into this question and found that the young men who use these systems are able to adapt and improvise when the thing doesn't glow. They look through it like a ghost ring. It requires a higher front sight but it works. I find myself in agreement with Mas Ayoob in his video about this made for the Wilson Combat Youtube Channel.
(youtube.com/watch?v=apILD12giac )
He said that these things are no longer in their infancy, but they are in their adolescence. If you watch the video, I would really enjoy any of your comments regarding especially the advantages section which begins around minute 3:00.

Kind Regards,
BrianD

I watched the video. I agree with some things and disagree with others. Mostly it is a matter of personal preference.

AJ

 

[Doug M.]

I find it interesting that Aimpoints are failing so often. They have been the "A" answer for long guns for quite some time and have a stellar reputation. I had one fail on a pistol, and every serious shooter I know (mostly cops) was amazed. EOTech, yeah, they fail at a staggering rate and then ended up in fraud litigation.

 

[sigp220.45]

How many people honestly carry a concealed weapon with either optics/RDS? And if you do how do you carry them? Shoulder holster, IWB, OWB, pocket or what? 100% of the folks that I know that carry concealed weapons in my area are carrying a bare bones gun, mostly in pockets.

I carry this Glock fairly often in my waistband up front. No elaborate gear. I had another 19 without the red dot that I sold because this one carried as easily and I like the dot.

My nephew carries a 365 with a red dot all the time. He uses a kydex in the waistband holster.

I don’t know why people get riled up about these, especially older folks who could greatly benefit from them.

They aren’t mandatory. If you don’t want one, don’t get one. None of the objections hold water for me.

 

[AJ]

I carry this Glock fairly often in my waistband up front. No elaborate gear. I had another 19 without the red dot that I sold because this one carried as easily and I like the dot.

My nephew carries a 365 with a red dot all the time. He uses a kydex in the waistband holster.

I don’t know why people get riled up about these, especially older folks who could greatly benefit from them.

They aren’t mandatory. If you don’t want one, don’t get one. None of the objections hold water for me.

If you live in an area where the clothing you wear will allow for ccw of those rigs then great. Or are allowed to carry open carry. Here in my area. the weather dictates differently (except on days like today, the temp was 51 this morning) and we are not allowed to open carry. Everyone in the state can carry with no ccw permit.

The older folks know what they like and are willing to say so. A lot seem to like the RDS on their range pieces, but not on their carry pieces.

You are right that they are not mandatory. So I don't have any. The only optics I have are some rifle scopes and those have only gone on my rifles in the past year or so, since I am fighting with cataracts.

 

[sigp220.45]

If you live in an area where the clothing you wear will allow for ccw of those rigs then great. Or are allowed to carry open carry. Here in my area. the weather dictates differently (except on days like today, the temp was 51 this morning) and we are not allowed to open carry. Everyone in the state can carry with no ccw permit.

Clothing doesn’t have anything to do with it. 90% of the time I wear the gun in my waistband over a tee shirt and under an unbuttoned aloha shirt. I may throw a jacket over it in the winter.

The Glock with the red dot conceals as well as anything else I carry.