Musings on the M1 carbine

[Mike SC Hunter]

The impulse it generates and the way it does so is not ideal for a service weapon.

Jeff Cooper had nothing good to say about the carbine. He had been there, done that. Have you not heard of him, either?

Cooper was full of himself.....Believing only his opinion mattered.......His so called "scout rifle" was an answer in search of a question. ..........Mounting a pistol scope halfway down the barrel is not conductive speed or useful when hunting at distances.

 

[Greyman50]

FWIW compare the 30 Cal. Carbine round with the 300 Blackout. 30 Cal. Carbine round plainly not close to reloading changes as the Blackout but much is close. BTW, don't have a 300 Blackout nor want one as I have a 30 Cal. Carbine.

 

[AJ]

IIRC, the British only issued two magazines for the SMLE's. One was kept and reloaded in the rifle using stripper clips. The other was a spare incase the first one had gotten damaged somehow. Not all countries had cases of spare magazines in their supply systems. Not like those silly folks from across the pond.

 

[AJ]

Lots of members from the Absent Comrades Role on this thread, miss them.

Looking at the Non De Plumes on the older posts I was thinking the same thing.

 

[J. W.]

One of my earliest shooting memories is shooting my dad’s Universal M1 Carbine. Couldn’t have been more than 6 or 7 years old. I remember being impressed the loud report and mild recoil.

Looking back, the Universal was a decent rifle, but the trigger pull was very heavy. Dad later inherited a USGI Winchester made carbine. The Winchester is light years better than the Universal. I’m assuming it’s an arsenal refinish, but it’s in beautiful conduction and looks like it just came out of the factory. Both are still in dad’s safe and will be mine one day. We should break them out soon as my boys are now big enough to enjoy them.

 

[mic214]

My first experience with the M1 Carbine was in the late 60’s at the age of 10 years old when my dad and I took the NRA Hunters Safety Course. As part of the course we all got to shoot five rounds out of an M1 Carbine. It was my first time shooting a rifle that was larger than a .22 and I loved it.

My dad was stationed in Alaska during the Korean War. He was a cook in the Army and he was issued an M1 Carbine. Since then he always had a soft spot for the Carbine. He ended up with a commercial version made by National Ordnance.



I have always kept my eye open for a deal on a Carbine. About a year ago, my local gun shop called me up and said he had a commercial one made by a company called Millville Ordnance (MOCO). There wasn’t much info on it as the Millville Ordnance Company didn’t last long and I believe it was bought out be the Plainfield Machine Company.

The shop manager gave me a great deal on the Carbine ($450.00), so I jumped on it. I really enjoy shooting it and it always brings me back to being 10 years old shooting with my dad.

 

[Glenn R. McMannly]

IIRC, the British only issued two magazines for the SMLE's. One was kept and reloaded in the rifle using stripper clips. The other was a spare incase the first one had gotten damaged somehow. Not all countries had cases of spare magazines in their supply systems. No like those silly folks from across the pond.

Do you have a written source for that?

Two magazines were ONLY ever issued with the early Lee-Metfords. This was BEFORE the introduction of the charger bridge and stripper clip system in later patterns.

Following the introduction of the CLLE (Charger Loading Lee-Enfield) in 1906, 5-round stripper clips (the proper term is in fact “charger” when discussing British rifles) were used exclusively to load these arms.

Magazines were serialed to the rifles and were ONLY authorized for removal for cleaning and maintenance purposes.

I’m be patiently waiting for your reference source that SMLE’s were issued with two magazines.

 

[AJ]

Do you have a written source for that?

Two magazines were ONLY ever issued with the early Lee-Metfords. This was BEFORE the introduction of the charger bridge and stripper clip system in later patterns.

Following the introduction of the CLLE (Charger Loading Lee-Enfield) in 1906, 5-round stripper clips (the proper term is in fact “charger” when discussing British rifles) were used exclusively to load these arms.

Magazines were serialed to the rifles and were ONLY authorized for removal for cleaning and maintenance purposes.

I’m be patiently waiting for your reference source that SMLE’s were issued with two magazines.

Like I wrote IIRC. I do not collect or study the SMLE's or the CLLE. Searching for a good answer This is the best I can find at the moment. https://www.gunboards.com/threads/q....300909/page-2?post_id=11063776#post-11063776

 

[Glenn R. McMannly]

Like I wrote IIRC. I do not collect or study the SMLE's or the CLLE. Searching for a good answer This is the best I can find at the moment. https://www.gunboards.com/threads/q....300909/page-2?post_id=11063776#post-11063776

Thank you. I appreciate it and value you as a fellow firearms enthusiast and board member.

 

[Dave Haynes]

There are hundreds of thousands of dead Germans, Japanese, Chinese and Viets that could testify that the M1 Carbine can be lethal if they could talk. Read the Book "Blackhawk Down" by Mark Bowden. Read about how the M16 using the green tips could hit a "Skinny" 4-5 times and he'd just flinch and not stop or go down. The D Boys favored the M14 which would put down a target with one round. M16 with 55 gr and 12 or 14 twist barrel was deadly in VN. Carbine is easy to carry and aim. The 15 rd magazines with no hold open followers were considered expendables because of the mickey mouse design of the retainer, two tiny bumps. The magazines came in huge boxes by the hundreds because after a few minutes of use they would be unreliable. The number of 15 rd mags made was in the hundreds of millions. 9 companies like Rockola, IBM, Quality Hardware. Standard Products, Inland Div of Gen Motors etc. made 6M carbines in about 4-5 years, all parts interchanged and they never made another after WW2 and shortly thereafter. And like most other US weapons you could beat another man to death with it after you were empty..

 

[S&W Fan]

Just adding here are the pics of my dad I posted way back in the early days of this thread talking about how much he liked his carbine-the pics disappeared when my photobucket account did:



My dad on the left, France 1944 and his cousin that he randomly ran in to

 

[cpt-t]

Cooper was full of himself.....Believing only his opinion mattered.......His so called "scout rifle" was an answer in search of a question. ..........Mounting a pistol scope halfway down the barrel is not conductive speed or useful when hunting at distances.

MIKE: I have always felt the same way about Jeff Cooper. I would like to know more about His for real Combat Experiences. Before buying everything he said as like God Him Self Had Spoken.
ken

 

[Weldmeister]

I spent five months in 'Indian Country' west of DaNang back in 1965-66, and carried an M-1 carbine as well as a 1911. My carbine was a great tool, never let me down, and I own one today that's 80 years old and still shoots very well. I had a bit of brain-fade one afternoon and bought a Ruger Blackhawk in .30 Carbine. Whoa, Nellie! Substantial recoil, but the flame from the barrel was downright intimidating! It can be used to start campfires, for sure. Not nearly as much fun as the M-1 carbine, for sure.

Love the .30 Carbine, and like you, I had to have the Blackhawk.. I don't find the recoil very bad... BUT IT IS FREAKING LOUD!!!

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

Any time I'm at the range shooting my carbine and some "historian" points out that the Chinese just got up and dusted themselves off after being shot with the carbine, I repeat my standing offer: I'll give you $50 to pace off 50 yds, bend over, and let me shoot you in the butt with my carbine. I mean, if it won't penetrate a Chinese overcoat it probably won't even break the skin.

Still no takers!

Another BS tale that get repeated by the unwashed.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

It handily beat out seven other designs for the same cartridge. It seems to work pretty well in all of the testing and field reports. It's weakness was rain and sand. After action reports from Tarawa indicate the M1 carbine could be quickly cleaned and kept running. The M1 rifle suffered less so, and the balance of increased firepower overcame the USMC initial caution to adopt it for beach landings and similar operations.

Surely one could call out the early troubles with the M16 as a fault of the gas system. But in fact it was overcome and in the end has proved enduring. It wasn't the fault of the system alone but a confluence of mis-steps during adoption that made it seem inappropriate for a service weapon.

Someone not liking the M1 Carbine - even someone as well known as Jeff Cooper - is not much of an explanation. A bunch of guys in this thread used them at work and had favorable thingsto write. Audie Murphy thought highly of them. I assume you've heard of him. He knew a thing or two as well.

Re: M16........If was fault of a powder change in the cartridge.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned a seminal book that used to just about be required reading for 'gun cranks' a few years ago, "Shots Fired In Anger" by Lt. Col. John George.

It details his experiences fighting the Japanese in multiple island campaigns in WWII and he used everything from the Garand to bolt action sniper rifles and the little 30 carbine. In a hot combat zone I recall he was fond of carrying a cut down five round mag in the carbine for convenience sake, carrying spare extended mags of 15 rounds (I seem to remember he thought the 30 rounders unwieldy and unreliable) and used it to deadly effect.

Lt. Col. George went on to be a target shooter of renown and a high profile figure in the NRA for many years.

One passage comes to mind where his squad was being pursued down an incline in the jungle by a numerically superior force of Japanese and he would stop and provide covering fire for his men so they could escape. He talks about being able to almost surgically place shots with the light recoiling carbine, which he stated also would penetrate the Japanese helmets with ease.

The old 'rule of thumb' we were often quoted when I first became interested in martial rifles was that the 30 carbine had the ballistics at 100 yards that a .357 revolver had at the muzzle - not too shabby. The 110 grain hardball pill with poor shot placement is likely the reason some have no confidence in the round. Anyone who values a Garand and a 1911 in their battery should appreciate having the little carbine, as well. It has it's place, especially among more diminutive shooters . . . but is still an effective carbine at practical ranges.

I read George's book.......Its a good read.

 

[Buick]

Cant describe the carbine or its gas tappet system as weak or unreliable. It's a system that when modified with just a very clever trigger group redesign would run reliably in full auto and was accepted by our military in that configuration. In my experience of the last 40 years of shooting it's a design which is reliable in the extreme and on par with our best military weapons. The fact that it has been in continuous civilian production for 80 years essentially unchanged is also a strong testament to the design.

 

[pomonapete]

love the M1 carbine (carBEEN); dad had one in WWII in Germany as a tech sgt with a repair squad; I got him one at a pawn shop for Fathers' Day one year, supposedly had served in the Philippines. at 6'3, dad held it with one hand.

geez, it's purpled and pitted, the metallic upper add-on flies off, the screws loosen and it falls apart in my hands. it reposes in the closet today, pitting and purpling.

burglars got about 200 rounds of ammo for it in 2010.

last shot a little over a year ago; thumb-assisted cycling made the jams seem normal.

I paid a buck fifty for it. today they want over a thousand. ah me. I love the color purple.

 

[BB57]

I have a very hard time believe the Italians issued only two magazines for the BM-59s.

Do you have a primary source documentarian on that? Having loaded an M1A with clips through the top, I cannot imagine what a nightmare it would be trying to do that in combat.

At that point, I would MUCH rather have a Garand.

Owning a BM-59, a couple M1As, and a few M1 Garands in both .308 and .30-06, I'd choose them in the same order if I had to carry one in combat.

Italian tactical doctrine immediately post WWII is what it was. Remember, they were transitioning from the semi auto 8 round en bloc clip Garand, which they were building on Winchester's M1 Garand tooling they acquired through the government (prematurely as it turned out given the unforeseen Korean war).

While they saw the need for a 7.62x51 rifle beginning with their 7.72x51 Garand conversions, and also saw the clear benefits of having a 20 round box magazine, especially in a rifle designed to accommodate an optional M2 Carbine style select fire capability, they still didn't see a need for a large number of magazines to be issued with a BM-59 set up and issued for semi auto only fire.

Keep in mind you have to carry that ammo, as well as those extra magazines. BM-59 magazines are heavy. They weigh 11 oz empty compared to 8 oz empty for the M14 magazine, and just 1.2 oz for four five round stripper clips. Northern Italy is very much alpine and weight is very much a concern in that environment.

Also consider for a minute that two double magazine pouches were standard in US service for the M14. The Italians would provide a single double mag pouch and two magazines for the BM59. In both cases, all of the remaining ammunition was carried in stripper clips. Bandoleers were used in the case of the M14, while the Italians used bandoleers and/or a Garand clip belt for the BM59.

Like the US military, the Italians did include clip guides to use stripper clips to recharge magazines directly when they were not in the rifle. Like the M14, the clip guide in the receiver was a contingency to quickly top off the magazine before it was empty.

In short, the Italians were just more likely to use the clip guide in the receiver if suitable circumstances arose rather than run the mag dry and swap it out.

"BERETTA BM59 AND ITS SEMI-AUTO VARIANTS.." The Free Library. 2018 InterMedia Outdoors, Inc. 16 May. 2025 https://www.thefreelibrary.com/BERETTA+BM59+AND+ITS+SEMI-AUTO+VARIANTS.-a0546960022

 

[Glenn R. McMannly]

Owning a BM-59, a couple M1As, and a few M1 Garands in both .308 and .30-06, I'd choose them in the same order if I had to carry one in combat.

Italian tactical doctrine immediately post WWII is what it was. Remember, they were transitioning from the semi auto 8 round en bloc clip Garand, which they were building on Winchester's M1 Garand tooling they acquired through the government (prematurely as it turned out given the unforeseen Korean war).

While they saw the need for a 7.62x51 rifle beginning with their 7.72x51 Garand conversions, and also saw the clear benefits of having a 20 round box magazine, especially in a rifle designed to accommodate an optional M2 Carbine style select fire capability, they still didn't see a need for a large number of magazines to be issued with a BM-59 set up and issued for semi auto only fire.

Keep in mind you have to carry that ammo, as well as those extra magazines. BM-59 magazines are heavy. They weigh 11 oz empty compared to 8 oz empty for the M14 magazine, and just 1.2 oz for four five round stripper clips. Northern Italy is very much alpine and weight is very much a concern in that environment.

Also consider for a minute that two double magazine pouches were standard in US service for the M14. The Italians would provide a single double mag pouch and two magazines for the BM59. In both cases, all of the remaining ammunition was carried in stripper clips. Bandoleers were used in the case of the M14, while the Italians used bandoleers and/or a Garand clip belt for the BM59.

Like the US military, the Italians did include clip guides to use stripper clips to recharge magazines directly when they were not in the rifle. Like the M14, the clip guide in the receiver was a contingency to quickly top off the magazine before it was empty.

In short, the Italians were just more likely to use the clip guide in the receiver if suitable circumstances arose rather than run the mag dry and swap it out.

"BERETTA BM59 AND ITS SEMI-AUTO VARIANTS.." The Free Library. 2018 InterMedia Outdoors, Inc. 16 May. 2025 https://www.thefreelibrary.com/BERETTA+BM59+AND+ITS+SEMI-AUTO+VARIANTS.-a0546960022

So no primary source documentation and just conjecture, got it.