Huge difference between a mild target wad cutter and a high velocity hard cast-it's all about bullet composition and velocity. Hardcasr at high velocity will penetrate quite nicely thank you. Soft slugs at low velocity make nice holes in paper. Different horses for different courses.
Heavy Clothing Stops .38 Wadcutter!
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AJ
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OMG AJ...you almost had me in tears!!!
I forgot to add holes in some of the inept patrons that did it themselves and the other poor folks that got in the way of the inept patrons. Not many, but enough to keep your head on a swivel!
A couple of observations here. Fifty years ago pistol (revolver) qualifications in the police academy started at the fifty yard line. 6 prone and 6 standing barricade. Then jog to the 25 yard line and fire 18, kneeling barricade, 6 strong side, 6 over the top and 6 weak hand. Both shooting and reloading were part of the time. Then 12 at 15 yards, 12 at 7 and 6 close up. Total 60 rounds 70% required to pass. Double action required from 25 yards on in.
Then in the mid to late '80's the wonder nine came into play. More bullets and easier to shoot than a D/A revolver. But the qualification course was reduced to 25 yards and 50 rounds. No weak hand at the 25. That's now saved for the seven. Reloading is not part of the timed course.
Isn't this just wonderful. Now that's just a requirement for one particular densely populated state. YMMV.
A lot of this stems from lawsuits and court ordered changes to the Police Training Commission requirements. After all, those lawyers and judges know better than the Police Academy Directors and the State Police Colonel. Affirmative action making your streets safer one recruit at a time.
Then in the mid to late '80's the wonder nine came into play. More bullets and easier to shoot than a D/A revolver. But the qualification course was reduced to 25 yards and 50 rounds. No weak hand at the 25. That's now saved for the seven. Reloading is not part of the timed course.
Isn't this just wonderful. Now that's just a requirement for one particular densely populated state. YMMV.
A lot of this stems from lawsuits and court ordered changes to the Police Training Commission requirements. After all, those lawyers and judges know better than the Police Academy Directors and the State Police Colonel. Affirmative action making your streets safer one recruit at a time.
AJ
US Veteran
We (the folks in the Corps) had to qualify with a handgun for shooting badges on what was basically an NRA Bullseye course in the 70's & 80's. When I went to a Marine Barracks as the Guard Chief, we had the standard qual course. But also a combat course pretty much as you described. Our reloads were included in the timing. We shot this with the M1911, revolvers and M870 shotguns. Not sure what it is now.
AJ, I can't remember what the course of fire was for the 870 but it included 00B and slugs. We held a show us your bruise contest the next day.
Funny how people think holding a 12 ga. an inch away from the shoulder would help. We always warned them, we always did a demonstration. The winner never listened.
BTW, the bruise contest was always first thing in the morning. The morning of "Gas Day" CN, CS & OC. that was when the instructors paid back the wise guys. Fun times.
Funny how people think holding a 12 ga. an inch away from the shoulder would help. We always warned them, we always did a demonstration. The winner never listened.
BTW, the bruise contest was always first thing in the morning. The morning of "Gas Day" CN, CS & OC. that was when the instructors paid back the wise guys. Fun times.
AJ
US Veteran
When I attended Battalion Schools Combat Shotgun Course, our three day shotgun course was 350 rounds of 00 Buck and slug. Several times we had to shoot the strings of fire again, so probably 400 rounds or so. Bruising after that many rounds is not to be believed! Taught this course for a while thereafter.......
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If I'm going to use a wadcutter.....
...in a DEFENSIVE round, I'm going to load it like it's a defensive round. Not like a target load.
...in a DEFENSIVE round, I'm going to load it like it's a defensive round. Not like a target load.
fatcat3
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Sgt. Buzzard
We still used the S&W m65 until after Y2K, and our course was similar except no SA. and yes when we switched to autos we had the same lowering of standards.Living in California in the '80s, there was the case of a very large man...over 6 feet, weighing more than 250 pounds...not really obese...that was being arrested on a drug charge. Two California Highway Patrol Officers...not John and Ponch...were involved. I don't know what the CHP carried back then, but the guy piled out of his truck, with a 12 gauge shotgun, yelling "I got the blood if Jesus in my veins". In the aftermath, he was hit 12 times, but lived to be convicted of his crimes. So, you never know what factors may affect the outcome.
The FBI has/had a huge budget on the amount of money that they can spend determining the most effective round for the most common situations. They are not short of experts in house or on contract. I will go with what they pick. It has been a long time since the FBI was using .38s, but I believe that what they used was +P jacketed hollowpoints for carry. They are apparently still going with a +P JHP in 9MM. (correct me if that is wrong) It is like making a decision on a critical medical decision; you can use Chatgpt or you can go to a doctor. I will shell out for the doctor every time.
If folks really want to get the most bang for the buck out of a carry revolver, leave the .38 in the sock drawer and buy a .357 and be done with it. If a .357 JHP won't get the job done it is time to get outta Dodge.
For most of us it will never be an issue anyway. While I have known many people who needed killing, I have gone 73 years without having to shoot, or even threaten, to shoot someone and I am trying to make it the rest of the way. So far, I would have done just a well with a water pistol. I want all of that money, all of the time, all of that effort and training to be for absolutely nothing. I will be as happy as a pig in poop if I have just pissed it all away!
If folks really want to get the most bang for the buck out of a carry revolver, leave the .38 in the sock drawer and buy a .357 and be done with it. If a .357 JHP won't get the job done it is time to get outta Dodge.
For most of us it will never be an issue anyway. While I have known many people who needed killing, I have gone 73 years without having to shoot, or even threaten, to shoot someone and I am trying to make it the rest of the way. So far, I would have done just a well with a water pistol. I want all of that money, all of the time, all of that effort and training to be for absolutely nothing. I will be as happy as a pig in poop if I have just pissed it all away!
I think the answer to "is 5 inches enough" was pretty much settled in Miami about 1986. The 115gr. Winchester Silvertip performed exactly as the manufacturer designed it to. That was the heyday of the DOJ's RII. Rapid expansion and temporary wound cavity was supposed to be the solution. Well placed shot with a bullet that did what the FBI specified stopped an inch shy of bad guy's heart. I want a bullet that will go deep enough to get something important, winter coat, leather jacket or a bunch of blubber included
sipowicz
Member
From the pain I've seen of people being hit with a bullet in a bulletproof vest, I wouldn't worry about it. It'll probably end the fight either way.
Our department used the FBI Miami shootout more for its felony stop gone wrong than the ammo used by agents. It really turned into a cluster. The agents did have more than handguns but weren't accessible when needed against the perp's Ruger Mini-14.
I doubt JHP ammo in the 9mm semi-autos carried by a couple agents would have ended the event any sooner. Both perps were shot multiple times, and the one round ending an inch from the guy's heart doesn't mean much without knowing the weapon it was fired from, at what distance it was fired from, and entry point and travel within the body.
The OP's concern was .38 LRN vs wadcutters.
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A couple of remarks on the FBIs ammo testing protocol. I don't live far from Quantico and had friends who worked there. I even got a few pirated copies of internal memos on their "discussions" on proper ammunition/calibers. BTW Ed Mireles did a book on the incident, you can get the story from the horses mouth. edmireles.com
So: even the Feds didn't have enough money & time to shoot more than 5 rounds per test, per ammo example. While highly suggestive of results, it's not a warranty of performance of the round YOU launch. Secondly, right up front, the study notes that you should review your circumstances and look for the ammunition that did well in tests simulating your circumstances. Not looking to shoot up vehicles, skip the test results/recommendations on that subject. The WW Silvertip JHP was issue FBI ammo at the time.
So: even the Feds didn't have enough money & time to shoot more than 5 rounds per test, per ammo example. While highly suggestive of results, it's not a warranty of performance of the round YOU launch. Secondly, right up front, the study notes that you should review your circumstances and look for the ammunition that did well in tests simulating your circumstances. Not looking to shoot up vehicles, skip the test results/recommendations on that subject. The WW Silvertip JHP was issue FBI ammo at the time.
DRankin
Member
Let's back up the truck here..... a 230 grain wadcutter in a J frame?
I've only seen them used by a few guys for bowling pin shoots years ago. They loaded them in .357 cases because of the overall length. Full WC design. They claimed they got about 1000 fps with them. Don't know if that was actually tested or their guess.
Precisely why I use full-weight FMJ FP in 45 ACP and 40 S&W, 225 grain hard-cast wadcutters in 45 AR, 158 grain JSP or JHP in 357, and 158 grain LHP +P in 38 special (don't use this last often anymore).
A bullet must penetrate to be effective. Anything else it might do is gravy.
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Or in a .38
. I want that weight it's coming out of something that starts with a .4
A 9mm hollow point fired from an S&W 459 passed through Platt's right upper arm and struck his chest, stopping an inch away from his heart. Toxicology tests showed that the abilities of Platt and Matix to fight through multiple traumatic gunshot wounds and continue to battle and attempt to escape were not achieved through any chemical means. Both of their bodies were drug-free at the time of their deaths. The autopsy also found that Platt's right lung had collapsed and his chest cavity contained 1.3 liters of blood. Of his many gunshot wounds, this wound was the primary one responsible for his eventual death. It took him five minutes to bleed out, during which, he killed 2 FBI agents and wounded several more.
That leads me to believe that five inches of penetration from a wadcutter being enough to conclusively end a fight as overly optimistic.
Yep. Not a great picture but here's a couple
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